What is the Church?

[bytebear]

This thread is not about authority but about "What is the Church?". But since the question can have many answers, lets talk about how the priesthood relates to "the Church". But first I wish to mention how I view subjective claims.

As mentioned the priesthood is key to THE church. One can belong to a group of people who have like minded views on theology, philosophy, scriptural interpretation, but without priesthood they are A church, not THE church.

Faith and beliefs are subjective. If I make a claim that God is three persons it is subjective, I can't prove that God is three persons; it is my belief. I can show you through scripture why I believe that God is three persons, I just can't prove it. The same happens when one claims spiritual authority. The LDS church claims their authority comes from a restoration that happened through Joseph Smith. Other churches claim that their authority comes from biblical scripture; scripture that is God breathed. Both claims are subjective because they cannot be proved.

Of course, you are correct. However, I find a much more compelling argument for LDS beliefs on proper priesthood keys and authority using the Bible verses above to show there is a pattern and design to the way authority is given from God. Ultimately, the Bible is a guide, but not a proof. Jesus confounded the religious leaders of his day by contradicting their scriptural beliefs and restoring the truth of the prophets from those with false beliefs. Beliefs they felt very strongly were the correct scriptural interpretations. The Bible is not the source of authority.

This is an LDS forum and I know what LDS members believe about priesthood authority. One of the posts mentioned that the priesthood and the people make up "the Church". Is the priesthood perfect or does it have limitations because it involves imperfect people?

The priesthood is perfect. It's power can move mountains. People learn how to use the priesthood power. Very few have the ability to move mountains, but some do. But the purpose of the priesthood isn't to modify geography. It's to bring people to Christ. I think the church, with all of it's imperfect people, gives a very good example of a people trying to achieve that goal.

[Guest]

So God can't be perfect unless His children are?

[Maureen]

So God can't be perfect unless His children are?

I have no idea how you came up with that question. No where in this thread I have ever said that God is not perfect. Are you equating "the Church" with God?

M.

[Guest]

We argue that His church and His priesthood are perfect, though those who hold priesthood authority and carry out the missions of the Church are not. You seem to argue that that is impossible.

[Maureen]

We argue that His church and His priesthood are perfect, though those who hold priesthood authority and carry out the missions of the Church are not. You seem to argue that that is impossible.

The priesthood in relation to "the Church" definition was only just brought up, which is why I asked the question regarding it. And if you've taken the time to truly read this thread who will have noticed that I equate "the Church" with "the people" and since people are not perfect it only makes sense that is would be difficult for "the Church" to be perfect. You obviously do not see "the Church" as "the people". Eowyn, how do you define "the Church"?

M.

[Guest]

I define "The Church" (in capitals) as the Kingdom of God on earth, consisting of members baptized under His priesthood authority and given the opportunity to receive other saving ordinances under the same authority. That does not eliminate the goodness or value people gain from other churches (small "c"). I'm just trying to figure out your motivation and purpose in this thread, because I believe you know that's how most LDS people would define "The Church". Do you have any enlightenment on that front?

[Maureen]

...I'm just trying to figure out your motivation and purpose in this thread, because I believe you know that's how most LDS people would define "The Church". Do you have any enlightenment on that front?

My motivation is spelled out in this thread. If I knew exactly how people would have answered I wouldn't have asked the question.

M.

[Guest]

I beg your pardon if I'm not convinced.

[Maureen]

That's your choice.

M.

[bytebear]

The priesthood in relation to "the Church" definition was only just brought up, which is why I asked the question regarding it.

M.

If by, "only just brought up" meaning the second post in this thread, then I agree.

[Guest]

If by, "only just brought up" meaning the second post in this thread, then I agree.

Repeated in the 4th post in this thread and so many posts thereafter. Unless Maureen doesn't know that when we talk of Authority we talk about Priesthood authority which seems unlikely.

[Maureen]

If by, "only just brought up" meaning the second post in this thread, then I agree.

I'm referring to Post #34:

The church does not exist without authority. Otherwise it's just a bunch of like minded people who get together and do stuff. But that stuff is meaningless without priesthood. The church is people + priesthood...

M.

[Traveler]

An organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation....

Church of Jesus Christ

The word "church" as rendered in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones." In summary, the New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23)....

The Church - What is the Church?

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

Come, Join with Us - general-conference

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, administered by the priesthood of God.

The Gospel and the Church - general-conference

People in the church are people. Their callings do not make them instantly better, or more efficient, or smarter. God is perfect, his church is perfect, people are not.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/38084-remarriage-sealing-cancellation-3.html

How do you define what is the church? Is it a body of believers of Christ? Is it a Christian organization that is perfect but it is run by imperfect members? Is it God's kingdom on earth? For me, the church is "the people" who gather together of like mind, who testify and share in the wonderfulness that is God.

Thoughts?

M.

Anciently the term or concept of Church was not used - rather the expression was disciple (with roots in discipline rather than belief). Also anciently there were references to way or path. I personally believe that the concept of congregation of believers or church is part of the paganization of the followers of Christ. To turn them from the path or way of Christ into thinking in terms of belief rather than action and discipline as the means to follow G-d rather than following after G-d through discipline and covenant.

The Traveler

[Guest]

I'm referring to Post #34:

M.

I don't understand. We told you that starting in post #2?

[Maureen]

I don't understand. We told you that starting in post #2?

Post #2 said:

It's all of those things. I think it's important to understand there is a specific rite for membership (baptism and confirmation). And that rite must be performed by proper authority. One cannot claim to be a Latter-day Saint if they have not joined the church through the correct method.

To me, this post does not specifically say that the church is people + priesthood. Actually saying that the church is people + priesthood is more straight forward, which I can understand.

M.

[Guest]

Post #2 said:

To me, this post does not specifically say that the church is people + priesthood. Actually saying that the church is people + priesthood is more straight forward, which I can understand.

M.

Ok. We assumed you know that when we say proper authority we are talking about the Priesthood.

[prisonchaplain]

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

So...I'm in???

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, both Catholic and LDS believe they and they alone hold the proper authorization. So then, people get to mull it over and ask God who is right because they both can't be.

There is a third option.

[Traveler]

So...I'm in???

Do you want the politically correct answer or the hard core doctrine?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Do you want the politically correct answer or the hard core doctrine?

The Traveler

Let me save you the trouble...

1. I'm not baptized into the CoJCoLDS.

2. However, some LDS will not be found worthy of entry into the Celestial Kingdom.

3. And, some non-LDS may progress into that Kingdom.

4. As one poster said, the Church is not permanent.

5. Nevertheless, I grant anyone that if they think their church is the one true one, the most true one, or even just holy and acceptable unto God, then, by all means, support it to the end.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon prisonchaplain. I hope you're doing well! :)

So...I'm in???

I am certain that there are humble followers of Jesus Christ who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In order to see how there can only be two churches it is helpful to recognize that God's church isn't limited to an institutionalized organization. The elect of God are to be found all over the earth.

Nephi saw our day. In Chapter 33 he writes:

" 6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation."

Nephi is speaking to all of us. Notice in verse 9 how we should be reconciled unto Christ. That is ultimately the requirement. It isn't about the LDS institution. It is about being reconciled with Christ. You enter into the narrow gate through baptism and then you walk the strait path until the end.

Nephi continues

"10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day."

Nephi knew that in our day there would be those who would reject the Book of Mormon because they perceive it to be a product of Joseph Smith. However, what Nephi is trying to get across is that we should forget about Joseph Smith. Forget about Mormonism. Believe in Christ and be reconciled to Him. It requires humility in order for us to put aside our traditions and beliefs that have not been confirmed by the Holy Ghost. Nephi is inviting the humble followers of Christ to look past any prejudice and simply believe in Christ. Humble followers of Christ will recognize the words of their Master and they will rejoice in them rather than reject more of His words.

But all of this requires us divorcing ourselves from our preconceptions and/or our traditions.

What is more important than the institutional Church is that we be reconciled with Christ. If a person is a humble follower of Christ, in due time they will have the opportunity to receive all the saving ordinances through proper priesthood authority.

-Finrock

[Guest]

There is a third option.

Nah. Face it. You're unauthorized.

[ElectofGod]

Good Afternoon prisonchaplain. I hope you're doing well! :)

I am certain that there are humble followers of Jesus Christ who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In order to see how there can only be two churches it is helpful to recognize that God's church isn't limited to an institutionalized organization. The elect of God are to be found all over the earth.

Nephi saw our day. In Chapter 33 he writes:

Nephi is speaking to all of us. Notice in verse 9 how we should be reconciled unto Christ. That is ultimately the requirement. It isn't about the LDS institution. It is about being reconciled with Christ. You enter into the narrow gate through baptism and then you walk the strait path until the end.

Nephi continues

Nephi knew that in our day there would be those who would reject the Book of Mormon because they perceive it to be a product of Joseph Smith. However, what Nephi is trying to get across is that we should forget about Joseph Smith. Forget about Mormonism. Believe in Christ and be reconciled to Him. It requires humility in order for us to put aside our traditions and beliefs that have not been confirmed by the Holy Ghost. Nephi is inviting the humble followers of Christ to look past any prejudice and simply believe in Christ. Humble followers of Christ will recognize the words of their Master and they will rejoice in them rather than reject more of His words.

But all of this requires us divorcing ourselves from our preconceptions and/or our traditions.

What is more important than the institutional Church is that we be reconciled with Christ. If a person is a humble follower of Christ, in due time they will have the opportunity to receive all the saving ordinances through proper priesthood authority.

-Finrock

I will add, coming uunto christ is literally to come unto him. Its not enough to believe, or practice. It incorporates much, it requires understanding of truth, absolute knowledge, not just belief but mere knowledge. Joseph smith taught, If a man does not have a correct understanding of God he never has the faith required to see and know him.

He did so, so that we would know what it means to come unto Christ. I will copy an except in lecture 3.

2. Let us here observe that three things are necessary for any rational and intelligent being to exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

3. First, the idea that he actually exists;

4. Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes;

5. Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which one is pursuing is according to His will. For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive. But with this understanding, it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

6. Having previously shown the way that both the idea and the fact of his existence came into the world, we shall proceed to examine his character, perfections, and attributes, so this class may see not only the just grounds which they have to exercise faith in him for life and salvation, but the reasons that all the world, also, may have to exercise faith in him, the Father of all living, as far as the idea of his existence extends.

7. As we are indebted for the idea of his existence to a revelation which God made of himself to his creatures, in the first instance, so in like manner we are indebted to the revelations which he has given to us for a correct understanding of his character, perfections, and attributes. Because without the revelations which he has given to us, no man by searching could find out God (see Job 11;7–9). “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God” (1 Cor 2:9–1 1).

What does it really mean to come unto Christ that makes one part of his church? This church is as mentioned by finrock a spiritual church, God's church.

Here is the fruits for one who comes unto Christ.

D&C 93 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Isaiah 65:2 KJV

King James Version

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

D&C 84

49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.[/quote

Its Gods work to give us eternal life. What is eternal life?

King James Bible John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

One has eternal life on no other principle except to know God. Which is the fruits of they who come unto Christ.

Which fruits are those who...

What does it mean to know God, rather than to know about God? | Questions and Answers | Christianity.net.au

While i don't agree with everything in that link they illustrate the most important thing what it means to come unto christ and know him

The fundamental difference between knowing about God and knowing God is about personal relationships. Because God is a person, you can know ‘about’ him but you don’t really ‘know’ him until you have a personal relationship with him. For instance I can know about the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, but I wouldn’t say that I know him. To know him I have to meet him and get to know him. We have to reveal things to each other and be willing to share in each others lives. The staggering promise of the Bible is that we can know God like this and that He wants us to know him and share in his eternal life!

But these end results only happen when one has gained the correct "character, perfections, and attributes" through obedience to God, can be learned. Stricly through obedience through the holy spirit that lightens ALL of us. Christian, non christian, alike.

I am just showing how much more complicated that verse is, "repent and come unto me"... Coming unto Christ involves so much more and requires so much more than most believe. It requires a "sacrifice of ALL things". Without such a sacrifice one cannot inherit eternal life.

As Finrock said there are elect children of God over all the earth. Hope I am making sense, may not be.

Edited October 16, 2013 by ElectofGod

[bytebear]

Let me save you the trouble...

1. I'm not baptized into the CoJCoLDS.

2. However, some LDS will not be found worthy of entry into the Celestial Kingdom.

3. And, some non-LDS may progress into that Kingdom.

4. As one poster said, the Church is not permanent.

5. Nevertheless, I grant anyone that if they think their church is the one true one, the most true one, or even just holy and acceptable unto God, then, by all means, support it to the end.

#3 is true only when one accepts his proxy baptism. Either way, one must be baptized (by the proper priesthood authority) to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

[Maureen]

Ok. We assumed you know that when we say proper authority we are talking about the Priesthood.

Priesthood had been mentioned in several of the posts, but I found it more succinctly and more meaningfully expressed by the description of church is people + priesthood.

When I think of "the Church" I think of all "body of believers" from all different Christian faiths.

M.