Excess

[Palerider]

I just dedicated my bowl of Honey Nut Cheerios to this thread.......

[prisonchaplain]

Are we using the resouces of the earth to excess?

No. As one resource diminishes (oil), market forces will make alternative sources more attractive, and technology will make them more affordable.

Do we really "NEED" five thousant pound SUVs to drive or could smaller cars suffice?

We went from having a large sedan to having a Durango to move our 5-person family around. Do we have to have it? No, of course not. Is it much more comfortable, much better when we need to move large items, and do we feel blessed to have it? Absolutely!

In the 1940s the average new home in the U.S. was about 700 square feet, today it is over 2300. Do we really "NEED" houses three times the size our parents had or is that EXCESS?

Our family of five has lived in a three-bedroom 50-year old rambler for 5 years. The girls are getting to school age, and we are feeling cramped in our 1700 sq ft house. Could we make it work? Of course. We feel blessed to have had it. However, circumstances are allowing us to move into a new 2750 sq ft house. It's wonderful. Is it luxurious for each child to have her own room, and for us to have one to use as a den/exercise/media room? Nice, but not excessive, imho.

Do we really "NEED" to use so much more oil that we produce in the U.S. that we have to meddle in other countries business until we are hated by them and finally have to fight for it, or is that maybe "EXCESS"?

Maybe it is excessively simplistic to argue that the reason the U.S. went into Iraq is because we wanted their oil.

Do we really "NEED" to eat large chunks of meat at ever meal, while most of the world can barely aford beans an drice, or is that "EXCESS"?

Is my SUV, my 5-bedroom house, or my consumption of meat depriving anyone of food? Would it help the hungry of the world if I was vegetarian? If I really thought my solidly middle class American life was directly responsible for the suffering of others, then, yes, I might agree it was excessive.

However, I'd argue that the suffering of the world, do so because of corrupt, wicked governments, inefficient economic systems, and, sometimes, from excessive centralized government control

[CrimsonKairos]

Just for curiosity.....what did you get from Jack in the Box???????............. B)

Here's my usual cheap-o order:

2 tacos $1

Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger $1

Jumbo Jack $1.29

So for about $3.75 I get lots of good luvin' to appreciate. I almost never buy "value meals." Their only value is to the corporation who's selling them and ripping off the customers.

[Guest mamacat]

Would it help the hungry of the world if I was vegetarian?

On such a self-sustaining farm people can "have in abundance," as 49:20 recommends, as there would be more production allowing for a greater and more even distribution of temporal resources. Remember the words of George Q. Cannon who explained that, "other articles of food could be raised more cheaply and in greater variety than the flesh of animals." It takes from 5 to 12 pounds of grain when fed to livestock to produce one pound of meat. What better way for all to have abundantly than for humans to be eating the grain directly thus creating food for 5 to 12 times as many people. Wouldn't that go a long way toward establishing a Zion society and eliminating the inequities of a worldly system in which one man "possess that which is above another?"

[prisonchaplain]

I don't mean to turn this into a political thread, but I do think it's unfair that the workers who produce goods are the least likely to be wealthy from their production/sales etc.

Most CEOs work 70-80 hour weeks, and often have a great deal at stake, should the company fail. Most workers put in 40-hour weeks, and risk little by coming in. Should the company fail, they might be out a few benefits, but will lose very little of their own capital. Additionally, many of those who work in production, put in a goodly amount of muscle. Yet, their jobs are semi-skilled, at most, and can often be learned by any middle school graduate with common sense, in a matter of days, or a very few weeks. CEOs and other management types lean on many years, if not decades, of experience, as well as formal education. Owners often have personal assetts tied into the success or failure of the company.

Supply and demand in conjuction with collective bargaining rights are enough to garner production workers a fair wage.

[Guest mamacat]

There is more than enough food in the world to feed the entire human population. So why are more than 840 million people still going hungry?1

Our meat-based diet is partly to blame, as land, water, and other resources that could be used to grow food for human beings are being used to grow crops for farmed animals instead. According to a recent report by Compassion in World Framing, "[c]rops that could be used to feed the hungry are instead being used to fatten animals raised for food." It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh.

The average adult human burns about 2,000 calories per day, just living his or her life. We use almost all the calories that we consume to move around, breathe, and do everyday tasks. The same is true of farmed animals. For every pound of food that they are fed, only a fraction of the calories are returned in the form of edible flesh. The rest of those calories are burned away raising the animal to slaughter weight or contributing to feathers, blood, and other parts of the animal that are not eaten by humans. This is why animals raised for food have to eat as many as 16 pounds of grain to create just 1 pound of edible flesh.2

Because the industrial world is exporting grain to developing countries and importing the meat that is produced with it, farmers who are trying to feed themselves are being driven off their land. Their efficient, plant-based agricultural model is being replaced with intensive livestock rearing, which also pollutes the air and water and renders the once-fertile land dead and barren.

If this trend continues, the developing world will never be able to produce enough food to feed itself, and global hunger will continue to plague hundreds of millions of people around the globe. The Guardian explains that there's only one solution: "It now seems plain that [a vegan diet] is the only ethical response to what is arguably the world's most urgent social justice issue."3

Why Animal Agriculture Doesn't Add Up

The more meat we eat, the fewer people we can feed. If everyone on Earth received 25 percent of his or her calories from animal products, only 3.2 billion people could be nourished. Dropping that figure to 15 percent would mean that 4.2 billion people could be fed.4 If everyone went vegan, there would be more than enough food to nourish the world's entire population—more than 6.3 billion people. The WorldWatch Institute sums this up perfectly, saying, "[M]eat consumption is an inefficient use of grain—the grain is used more efficiently when consumed by humans. Continued growth in meat output is dependent on feeding grain to animals, creating competition for grain between affluent meat-eaters and the world's poor."5

The average adult human burns about 2,000 calories per day, just living his or her life. We use almost all the calories that we consume to move around, breathe, and do everyday tasks. The same is true of farmed animals. For every pound of food that they are fed, only a fraction of the calories are returned in the form of edible flesh. This is why, according to Compassion in World Farming, it takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh.6 According to the USDA and the United Nations, using an acre of land to raise cattle for slaughter yields 20 pounds of usable protein. That same acre would yield 356 pounds of protein if soybeans were grown instead—more than 17 times as much!7

Producing the grain that is used to feed farmed animals requires vast amounts of water. It takes about 300 gallons of water per day to produce food for a vegan, and more than 4,000 gallons of water per day to produce food for a meat-eater.8,9 You save more water by not eating a pound of beef than you do by not showering for an entire year.10

It should be no surprise, then, that food for a vegan can be produced on only 1/6 of an acre of land, while it takes 3 1/4 acres of land to produce food for a meat-eater.11 If we added up all the arable land on the planet and divided it equally, every human would get 2/3 of an acre—more than enough to sustain a vegetarian diet, but not nearly enough to sustain a meat-eater.12

Dr. Waldo Bello, executive director of the Institute for Food and Development Policy, concurs that raising animals for meat is a waste of resources, stating, "The American fast-food diet and the meat-eating habits of the wealthy around the world support a world food system that diverts food resources from the hungry."13 Researchers and policymakers who study the problem of world hunger agree that we have plenty of resources to feed vegans, but not nearly enough to feed our addiction to meat.

http://www.goveg.com/worldHunger.asp

[CrimsonKairos]

My parents grow lots of our own food, and we have a compost heap out back (Washington, yay!).

We grow strawberries, tayberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, rhubarb, and asparagus.

Before my dad's brain injury, he also grew corn, squash, lettuce, carrots, snow peas, peas, kholrabi (sp?), red and white onions, turnips and spinach.

I find no conflict between our growing lots of our own food and also enjoying good burgers.

p.s. If Hindus would eat beef, not as many Indians would starve...the cows literally throng the streets and fields...uneaten...

[Guest mamacat]

We grow strawberries, tayberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, rhubarb, and asparagus.

Before my dad's brain injury, he also grew corn, squash, lettuce, carrots, snow peas, peas, kholrabi (sp?), red and white onions, turnips and spinach.

:thumbsup:

i can't express how thrilled i was to learn of the LDS practice of home growing food and self-sustaining initiatives. i also love the community support for this. one of my favorite areas of interest is in organic and biodynamic gardening, as well as permaculture. this all fits so seamlessly with all the LDS practices i have found in these areas....cause for excitement for me. :)

lol, i am enthralled with the unusual things i suppose.

[TimA.]

We grow strawberries, tayberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, rhubarb, and asparagus.

Before my dad's brain injury, he also grew corn, squash, lettuce, carrots, snow peas, peas, kholrabi (sp?), red and white onions, turnips and spinach.

:thumbsup:

i can't express how thrilled i was to learn of the LDS practice of home growing food and self-sustaining initiatives. i also love the community support for this. one of my favorite areas of interest is in organic and biodynamic gardening, as well as permaculture. this all fits so seamlessly with all the LDS practices i have found in these areas....cause for excitement for me. :)

lol, i am enthralled with the unusual things i suppose.

Mamacat,

I believe that you and I are kindred spirits. I very much enjoyed the material you posted Thanks!

Tim

[a-train]

Eat light, turn off your lights at bedtime, and for crying out loud, buy a MOTORCYCLE!!

Vegetarianism is far from compulsary in the Church, but there is no harm in preserving precious resources and no effort to do so should be frowned upon. Additionally, efforts to prohibit the use of meat are to be avoided, old Paul said that one of the keys by which we may identify those that 'shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;' shall speak 'lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.' (1 Tim 4:1-3)

Still, anyone that has had genuine vegetarian Indian cuisine knows what superior food tastes like.

-a-train

[TimA.]

JCDean,

It is simply amazing to me how little those that live in the free enterprise system treasure what they have. They think that socialism or, heaven help us, communism is the answer.

Now I hope you fellows are not including me among those ignorant (if not pure evil) socialist and communist. I never mentiioned any such thing. No sir not me I am on the sacred capitalism band wagon all the way to the bank just like yall are! All I was trying to do is ask, is there a point where we should voluntarly limit our consumption? Would that be pleasing to God? I really do wonder about why I am given so much in material blessings and what the Lord expects me to do with it. My work in this society and culture says I deserve it, yet God in His society and culture says I deserve nothing except death, that being the wages of my sin and all. I believe that maybe God didnt place a surplus in my hands because He thinks I am so great and wants me to have a great time. I think maybe it is to see if I will bless my neighbor with it.

I agree that we should all work hard and that some are more productive than others even when both are doing their best. Judging by telestial law they do indeed deserve more for that productivity. Here are some more verses, out of context I suppose, but read them and think about them anyway if you will. Thanks!

Tim

D&C 38:24-26

24 And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practise virtue and holiness before me.

25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his abrother as himself.

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

We need the rich to help pay taxes.

Especially since the top 50% of wage earners pay 96.03% of income taxes in the US...

LOL...Yes, I remember reading that here somewhere.

[TimA.]

Is my SUV, my 5-bedroom house, or my consumption of meat depriving anyone of food? Would it help the hungry of the world if I was vegetarian? If I really thought my solidly middle class American life was directly responsible for the suffering of others, then, yes, I might agree it was excessive.

However, I'd argue that the suffering of the world, do so because of corrupt, wicked governments, inefficient economic systems, and, sometimes, from excessive centralized government control

I would say no, yours alone makes little difference. But do you think that if every SUV in the U.S. was a smaller car that would cause less demand for fuel? And if it did, would that cause the price of fuel to drop? And if the cost of fuel droped would that be some relief to those on the lower income scale to be able to better aford the fuel they need? Or maybe be able to enjoy the luxury of a joy ride sometimes?

I think the same principle applies to houses. Smaller houses use less energy and tend to lower the price which makes it easier on those making less money.

If by enough people eating less meat less grain was fed to livestock, would that make it easier for those who can only aford beans and rice to feed themself because of lower prices?

Just some things I think about. Everything really is connected to everything else. Everything we do has an effect on others.

And I agree about wicked governments and excessive central government control causing much hardship but that in no way relieves me of the responsibility to choose right in the things I can control.

And finally I am not making any judgements about what anyone else does or drives or lives in I am just working things out in my own mine, or trying to anyway. :)

Tim

[Blessed]

Just some things I think about. Everything really is connected to everything else. Everything we do has an effect on others.

And I agree about wicked governments and excessive central government control causing much hardship but that in no way relieves me of the responsibility to choose right in the things I can control.

And finally I am not making any judgements about what anyone else does or drives or lives in I am just working things out in my own mine, or trying to anyway. :)

Tim

Tim, I echo your thoughts on "excess" and my belief system teaches me to live simply. Not in excess because it means I am taking away something from someone else who most likely needs it more than I.

And I really liked the bolded part. It sounded very Obi Wan Kanobe-ish.

[JcDean78]

TimA as long as you are preaching that it is individual choice then I am with you. If however the individual loses that choice in any way at all, then I am against.

I strongly believe that we should do what we can to help, live within our means, and not be wastful. However we all are going to have different opinions on what those things mean and how it should impact each of us.

I will say that you must do what you feel is right and if you feel that the Lord wants you to not do something, then I would not do it.

[BenRaines]

Anyone who does not want their excess can ship it my way.

Ben Raines

[StrawberryFields]

I would say no, yours alone makes little difference. But do you think that if every SUV in the U.S. was a smaller car that would cause less demand for fuel? And if it did, would that cause the price of fuel to drop? And if the cost of fuel droped would that be some relief to those on the lower income scale to be able to better aford the fuel they need? Or maybe be able to enjoy the luxury of a joy ride sometimes?

I think the same principle applies to houses. Smaller houses use less energy and tend to lower the price which makes it easier on those making less money.

If by enough people eating less meat less grain was fed to livestock, would that make it easier for those who can only aford beans and rice to feed themself because of lower prices?

Just some things I think about. Everything really is connected to everything else. Everything we do has an effect on others.

And I agree about wicked governments and excessive central government control causing much hardship but that in no way relieves me of the responsibility to choose right in the things I can control.

And finally I am not making any judgements about what anyone else does or drives or lives in I am just working things out in my own mine, or trying to anyway. :)

Tim

When you put it this way I can agree.

[Dr T]

What do you agree about Berry? Our actions affect others? We should control our own consumption? We can splurge?

[StrawberryFields]

What do you agree about Berry? Our actions affect others? We should control our own consumption? We can splurge?

Well how is saw it is that if we earn a living and take care of our responsibilities then why is it wrong to have a lot of things.

In the wards I have been in people always down others for excess like boats and other toys. We have owned those type of things for many many years. Well how we have seen it we don't tell others how to spend their money so why should others try to tell us. One thing that I thought about during one tagent in gospel doctrine class when they went off on ppl for having too much was that sure we have a lot but we share. We become very popular when it come time for youth activities....

Another thing is we don't borrow money to have our play toys.

Now the things that Tim brings up about how our actions affect others I have never really thought about that before. The energy costs are what most affects others in my mind. On the other hand I can only use one toy at a time and so it isn't excess is it?

[CrimsonKairos]

Still, anyone that has had genuine vegetarian Indian cuisine knows what superior food tastes like.

Oooh, my one true weakness. Indian food. Dude, you had to go and invoke daal, saag paneer, the chickpea curries....*CK utters a Homer Simpsonian drool of desire* B) Of course, I still love lamb korma and chicken tikka saag too.

Anyone who does not want their excess can ship it my way.

I second that motion, hahahaha. Ah, classic.

If I can afford it, I plan to drive the biggest, heaviest car I can possibly buy. After my dad's VW Golf got smashed to smithereens by another driver's full-size van...well let's just say looking at the pictures of that Golf's wreckage has left an indelible mark on my mind.

If others want to drive around in Shasta cans on wheels, feel free. Me? I'm not going to lose if and when an unfortunate collision comes my way. I'd rather live in a cardboard box and be able to afford a sturdy car, than live in a palace, drive an "economic" two-door popsicle-stick car, and deal with the aftermath of a horrific car crash where the little guy gets smacked to bits.

[prisonchaplain]

I would say no, yours alone makes little difference. But do you think that if every SUV in the U.S. was a smaller car that would cause less demand for fuel? And if it did, would that cause the price of fuel to drop? And if the cost of fuel droped would that be some relief to those on the lower income scale to be able to better aford the fuel they need? Or maybe be able to enjoy the luxury of a joy ride sometimes?

No. Why? In order for all our SUVs to turn into smaller cars, government would have to order it. Government would do so by, amongst other things, raising taxes. Gas would probably be even more expensive. Also, if gas stations sell less gas, they must make more profit per gallon to keep up.

We pay the penalty for our vehicles by the fact that we have to buy more gas. That's sufficienct, imho.

I think the same principle applies to houses. Smaller houses use less energy and tend to lower the price which makes it easier on those making less money.

And again, simple supply and demand does not work with these industries that are so intertwined with government regulation. In fact, large consumers of energy do pay surcharges, and low-income families often have their energy bills subsidized.

If by enough people eating less meat less grain was fed to livestock, would that make it easier for those who can only aford beans and rice to feed themself because of lower prices?

Again, no. Agriculture is another area that is heavily regulated. My eating hamburger or steak has little effect on the families that eat mostly rice and beans.

Just some things I think about. Everything really is connected to everything else. Everything we do has an effect on others. And I agree about wicked governments and excessive central government control causing much hardship but that in no way relieves me of the responsibility to choose right in the things I can control.

The right things that I do are: work, pay honest taxes, support charities and my church. New homes are more energy efficient. I'm thoroughly convinced that my new 2700 sq ft house will use less energy than my 1700 sq ft 1955 rambler did. Our old furnace was rated at about 55% efficiency.

And finally I am not making any judgements about what anyone else does or drives or lives in I am just working things out in my own mine, or trying to anyway. :)

Kudos to those who believe that paying extra for hybrid cars, or driving small vehicles, or living in compact housing will help the poor and the earth, and so do so. Agency (free will) is a wonderful thing!

[a-train]

There is a part of me that wants to tell everyone else to spend, spend, spend. I own a business that makes it's income on excess. The whole business rests on the skateboard. I don't think I have a single customer that buys from me for transportation or any other necessary purposes. They simply want to enjoy skateboarding.

It could be argued that skateboarding provides an invigorating work-out and a good clean interest for our youth. I can say that skateboarding gets people of all ages together and is among the most racially integrating activites I have ever seen. Still, the shoes, the clothes, the boards, all of it is excess. A person could buy their shoes for $30 at Walmart, but they choose to buy the $100 Nikes from me because they look so hot.

So there is a part of me that says: 'I'll be conservative and save my money, but I hope my clients will go to every excess.' Actually, I don't hope that any one of them will go into debt but I hope that there will be enough clients affording enough product to keep me in the black.

I think it comes down to honesty and integrity. I don't intend to deceive my clients. I simply secure what they cannot otherwise obtain and am paid a gainful wage for my effort. That is honest. Many of my clients can't afford what I sell, but they buy anyway. Many could afford a great deal more than what I offer. It is simply not my place as the lowly skateshop dude to teach my version of frugality. What I offer, I offer to all at the same price and I let them judge.

I would define excess as that which could be used to build the Kingdom of the LORD, but is spent on selfish desires. If a $100,000 Mercedes will glorify the LORD, then do it to it. But if we can't buy that car and build the kingdom in the same act, then we must think again.

'But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.' (Matt 6:33)

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Speaking of expensive cars...I don't think I could ever buy a "sporty" or expensive car. Every car I've owned, I have dented or in some other way cosmetically/structurally damaged it. I'd hate to pour tons of cash into a pretty car just to scratch it parallel parking or something stupid.

I plan to buy a sturdy, no-frills, common SUV or car. Common meaning no foreign parts or repairs needed for maintenance. Even if someone gave me a Porsche or Koenigsegg (sp?), I'd probably sell it and buy a practical car. B)

[StrawberryFields]

Speaking of expensive cars...I don't think I could ever buy a "sporty" or expensive car. Every car I've owned, I have dented or in some other way cosmetically/structurally damaged it. I'd hate to pour tons of cash into a pretty car just to scratch it parallel parking or something stupid.

I plan to buy a sturdy, no-frills, common SUV or car. Common meaning no foreign parts or repairs needed for maintenance. Even if someone gave me a Porsche or Koenigsegg (sp?), I'd probably sell it and buy a practical car. B)

Well if you have expensive cars you learn where and where not to take them and where to park.

[Dr T]

Porsche has never done it for me. I don't like most of them. SUV's offers room for my wife and four children and storage. :) The Lexis parallel parks on its own now.