The ignorance-is-bliss tactic? Or, When to get yourself involved?

[Backroads]

So I'm in something of a crummy mood. Today I took Baby over to my parents because a week ago my mom said to before she lives on a little trip. This happened to correspond with a neighbor coming over to give her a blessing...

Anywho, boils down to something going down between my parents. My mom said she doesn't want to burden me, though did give me the option of learning the details.

Though part of me really wants to know what's going on, I would rather hear it from both parents if they really want to tell me. I don't want to pry, nor text my siblings asking what they know (potentially worrying and involving them.)

'Cept now, I'm pretty blue about it and my mind is wandering to the worst possible scenarios. Logically, I realize it's not my business and I should focus on my family and just be support for my parents no matter what.

But is there a point when it's best to reach out for further detail?

[Windseeker]

I'm sorry to hear that Backroads. I personally am one to vote for openness. So I would want to see what is going on. Then at least you can be more specific in your prayers, even if that's all you can do.

[Vort]

This seems to be a male-female difference to some degree. If my sister or mother gave me that option, I would say, "If I can be of help, let me know. Otherwise, I don't want to hear." I expect my brothers would say something similar. I think my sisters would opt to know.

Bottom line: I don't know what the best thing to do is. Your parents have been dealing with their marriage since well before you were conceived, so this is old hat, however new it may be to you.

[classylady]

I don't know what to advise you. I think I would go for the option of "knowing". But, that's just me. It may be something such as a health problem or finances/retirement options.

I once confided to one of my adult, married sons of a particular serious problem DH and I have had all our marriage. This visibly upset him. He started shaking, and got teary eyed. So, I don't know. Is it better to keep all marriage problems to yourself, and not share with the children, even if they're adults? Or is it better for them to know that mom and dad don't have a perfect marriage, but we're struggling through it?

Edited October 18, 2013 by classylady

[Irishcolleen]

I'd say just pray for them. God can help better than anyone and you can trust that he will take care of your parents. I wish my parents wouldn't let me know when they have issues. I really don't need that type of stress.

[Guest]

I don't understand. It's YOUR parents. Of course it's your business!

Just because we became adults and moved out doesn't mean they quit being our parents!

You know, this really bugged me. I had the same issue from another friend of mine who told me she didn't know her brother was in the hospital. And I'm like... why didn't you know? And she said, well, nobody told me. And I'm like... your brother or your parents did not tell you? And she said, no, they didn't think it was my business. I was FLOORED.

I mean... what's the purpose of a SEALING if we, on earth, don't think it is our business to care about what's happening/going on with the people we are sealed to?????? It is our responsibility to be there for them. To help them. To love them! And there's that word again. LOVE - to do everything in your power to help another person stay on the path to God! You can't do that unless you know they need help getting on it!

If my mother ever withholds important things from me, or tells me it's not my business when I ask, I would go to the Philippines and knock her upside the head!

Okay, I know this hits a sore spot with me... Don't mind my frustration. It's a peeve. :)

Edited October 17, 2013 by anatess

[Vort]

I don't understand. It's YOUR parents. Of course it's your business!

Just because we became adults and moved out doesn't mean they quit being our parents!

You know, this really bugged me. I had the same issue from another friend of mine who told me she didn't know her brother was in the hospital. And I'm like... why didn't you know? And she said, well, nobody told me. And I'm like... your brother or your parents did not tell you? And she said, no, they didn't think it was my business. I was FLOORED.

I mean... what's the purpose of a SEALING if we, on earth, don't think it is our business to care about what's happening/going on with the people we are sealed to??????

If my mother ever withholds important things from me, or tells me it's not my business when I ask, I would go to the Philippines and knock her upside the head!

Did you understand that she's talking about knowing marital problems between her parents? If so, this may be a cultural difference. I would not dream of sharing my marital difficulties with my children, unless (1) they were adults and (2) I was convinced that sharing such problems with them would help and strengthen them in their lives in some way.

My dad never complained or talked about his marital difficulties even a single time to me. My mother has occasionally done so, both before and after Dad died, and while I generally try to listen respectfully and once in a while even learn something useful, in general I really wish she would not tell me such things. I see little to no value in most of it, and it smacks of disloyalty.

[Guest]

Did you understand that she's talking about knowing marital problems between her parents? If so, this may be a cultural difference. I would not dream of sharing my marital difficulties with my children, unless (1) they were adults and (2) I was convinced that sharing such problems with them would help and strengthen them in their lives in some way.

My dad never complained or talked about his marital difficulties even a single time to me. My mother has occasionally done so, both before and after Dad died, and while I generally try to listen respectfully and once in a while even learn something useful, in general I really wish she would not tell me such things. I see little to no value in most of it, and it smacks of disloyalty.

ESPECIALLY marital problems! That hits ME straight on! It's my responsibility - as well as my siblings - to band together to help them through it! I mean, I would understand if I was 12. But as an adult, I am old enough to have enough experience to give aid. But even when I was 12 or maybe a bit older, we went through this thing with my parents too. My mother would go "fly the coop" and go to the next island over to stay with her parents. We would all go on a boat and fetch her and my dad would give us lines to say so my mom's heart would "melt" and she'll go back home.

A counsellor goes and talks to both of them - or even one of them - and it doesn't smack of disloyalty. Why would it be that if she confides in me?

As a matter of fact, I've been through a lot of these sessions with my parents. My parents were married 48 years and it wasn't all honey and roses...

I don't think it has to do with cultural differences when it comes to parents/children/siblings. The cultural difference I see in my parent's relationship (or any relationship in the family) is when my aunt/uncles/cousins get involved in helping them through problems. My husband doesn't even know the names of his first cousins and can't remember how many brothers/sisters his parents have.

Edited October 17, 2013 by anatess

[Backroads]

There is a big part of me that wants to know so I can help. However, I don't feel right hearing only one side of the story. My dad was at work at the time, and, if it is something oh-so-horrible, I want to hear the complete story without holding onto a "she-said-this" thing for who knows how long.

Does that make sense?

I've always felt strongly that one should not willingly participate in hearing potential dirt from and about people you are particularly close to, not until everything has been cleaned up or all the parties involved agree to share.

However, I also feel strongly that one of the reasons of friends and family is to share burdens...

Though so far this thread has me leaning toward volunteering/demanding to be a listening ear. Thanks for all the words so far.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Backroads

[Praetorian_Brow]

My younger sister married a Filipino and their idea of family was a foreign to us. I applaud that they communicated on everything, but its a bit of a turn off when a husband speaks to his parents about marital issues before he speaks to his wife. Western world seems to adopt a more hands off approach when it comes to family communication.

Obviously women are more keen an this idea of nauseating over communication and men are less interested in hearing about everything.

However, now that I can understand my parents marital issues, I can understand the context of why our family behaved the way it did and the dysfunctions that appeared, based on the symptoms. I am for total honesty, my family does not communicate, we are all islands but we resent that no one tells each other anything.

So my conclusion, is be honest with close friends and family about marital issues, especially so the kids don't assume its their fault and go into life with extra baggage. As a child, I blamed myself for my parents marital issues and that has led to my own issues in life. Be honest in the context that the can be understood, even vague hints are better than...secrets. Don't ask, don't tell policy, leads to hidden secrets that lead to further relationship failures with the kids. Its also a family dysfunction.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Praetorian_Brow

[dahlia]

You know, this really bugged me. I had the same issue from another friend of mine who told me she didn't know her brother was in the hospital. And I'm like... why didn't you know? And she said, well, nobody told me. And I'm like... your brother or your parents did not tell you? And she said, no, they didn't think it was my business.

I had to laugh a little. I could see my family doing that - but eventually they would end up contacting me because somebody would need some money.

Personally, I don't want to know everything that's going on. Unless you think I can help you, keep it to yourself. Same way I don't expect you to solve my problems, so I don't burden you with them.

One of my sisters had a friend who committed suicide over a boy. My mother learned about it first and wasn't going to tell my sister because she didn't want her to think about suicide. Sister ends up calling the friend and the parents have to tell her she passed away. My sister didn't even get the chance to go to the funeral.

[Guest]

I will never put it on my children to feel any responsibility for the state of my marriage. The very idea is bizarre to me.

[mordorbund]

When I was on my mission, I realized that while I could ask my parents in a letter for advice on dealing with a companion or investigator, it would be weeks before I got a response and their answer would only be based on the one-sided report I gave them. It was more valuable to pray for guidance and work it out with my companion than to rely on biased third-party advice, regardless of how close that third party is to me.

When I got married I shared this lesson with my wife and asked her if she had any problems with me to share them with me instead of calling her sister and parents. As a contrast, her sister would call her whenever she had a grievance with her husband. Guess what? Her family took her side and agreed he was scummy. Then they would patch up, and the issue would blow over because it was just a case of two people learning to live together. But nobody else is told for days, so he continues to be the bad guy during this time, and afterwards there's a certain level of incredulity that things are so great and that he really is a great guy. That man now has to be perfect around his in-laws or they automatically fall back to the scummy portrayal of him that was slowly built by his own advocate - his wife.

If Mom is having problems with Dad (or vice versa), I hope she's talking to him first and foremost. If I'm getting pulled in, then it better be because they've both decided to include me in this discussion, in which case there's probably not really a marital issue going on.

[Guest]

I will never put it on my children to feel any responsibility for the state of my marriage. The very idea is bizarre to me.

When you go talk to your marriage counsellor, are you putting the responsibility for the state of your marriage to him? Of course not. You're putting the responsibility of HELP to your counsellor especially that you paid him.

It is bizarre to me that you're ok with a counsellor helping but you're not okay with your children helping when they have a GIANT stake in the matter.

[Guest]

There is a big part of me that wants to know so I can help. However, I don't feel right hearing only one side of the story. My dad was at work at the time, and, if it is something oh-so-horrible, I want to hear the complete story without holding onto a "she-said-this" thing for who knows how long.

Does that make sense?

I've always felt strongly that one should not willingly participate in hearing potential dirt from and about people you are particularly close to, not until everything has been cleaned up or all the parties involved agree to share.

However, I also feel strongly that one of the reasons of friends and family is to share burdens...

Though so far this thread has me leaning toward volunteering/demanding to be a listening ear. Thanks for all the words so far.

This is how this thing goes down in my family.

My mother is looking depressed. My dad is still alive. They're in the Philippines with my brother. My brother notices so he asks my mother what's going on.

Scenario 1: My mom says it's nothing. My brother goes and calls my dad. "Do you notice mom is depressed?" Dad says, "No." My brother tells my dad to "wake up and pay attention." And he'd be on my dad until they all figure out what's wrong. If they can't figure it out on their own, they're going to enlist my help which, knowing my family, would mean a phone call at 3AM.

Scenario 2: My mom says she's depressed because dad is an idiot. Same thing. My brother calls my dad. They get to sit on the dining table and my brother gets to play referee. More than likely, if it's a major issue, my brother would call everyone in on the conference. Yep, more than likely I'm on the conference call at 3AM.

Scenario 3: My mom says she doesn't know what's wrong, my brother asks my dad, he doesn't know either. Knowing my brother, that would be a trip to the hospital for a full blood work. My mother can't refuse the blood work if my brother (the doctor) feels its warranted because he'll be on her case like white on rice. If my mom refuses or if they find something disturbing in that blood work, more than likely I'll get that call. At 3AM.

By the way, this is how my brother found my dad's cancer. It went down just like that and I got the call about 20 times in 3 days as the scan results trickled in.

Everything about my parents is our business. The four of us. Everything about me is my parents business. They have a stake on my well-being just like I have a stake in theirs. That's what we consider family business. The sad thing is... We're not sealed. But I'm sure that's gonna happen sometime before judgement day.

And as I write this, I'm reminded that I just got a jillion calls (and made a jillion myself) in the past 2 days because of the earthquake that hit the Philippines. Our single-storyhouse has my neighbor's 2-story wall sitting on top of it. Phones and electricity and cell towers are down so we had to go through a jillion cousins to get news. My brother was able to get news to us within a couple hours of the earthquake so we didn't panic in the US. That would have been terrible not knowing what's going on. It's cool that he felt it important to get to a wifi spot even while aftershocks were still going because he knew we were going to worry. He didn't have to do so.

This post is putting me in reminisce mode... I remember getting a call at 3AM from my mom because my dad won't give her back her Nintendo that I gave her for her bday. I got a call from my mom because her cook quit and she was so mad she called every one of us to vent to because dad didn't think it was a big deal. Oh, and I remember my husband calling my mom at her "3AM" because I was in one of my rages (I was pregnant and didn't know it) and he asked her if its a good idea to leave her daughter. That was when my mom finally realized my husband is now "one of us". At that time, my dad wasn't speaking to us because I married a non-Catholic American. So now, my husband becomes part of the family business. Everything about him is my parents business now too so I can now ask them for marital advice. But his family is not in the business, unfortunately (all of my sibling's in-laws are in the business).

Fond memories... Yeah, we didn't bother with counsellors. We rely heavily on family to figure things out. I miss my dad very much.

Edited October 18, 2013 by anatess

[Dravin]

When I got married I shared this lesson with my wife and asked her if she had any problems with me to share them with me instead of calling her sister and parents. As a contrast, her sister would call her whenever she had a grievance with her husband. Guess what? Her family took her side and agreed he was scummy. Then they would patch up, and the issue would blow over because it was just a case of two people learning to live together. But nobody else is told for days, so he continues to be the bad guy during this time, and afterwards there's a certain level of incredulity that things are so great and that he really is a great guy. That man now has to be perfect around his in-laws or they automatically fall back to the scummy portrayal of him that was slowly built by his own advocate - his wife.

Yep, all to often 'seeking help' from family means complaining against the other spouse to either children or siblings which can easily bias family members as you say.

But is there a point when it's best to reach out for further detail?

I'm with Vort, if I can be of practical use to the situation then go ahead and let me know both how and the background information required to take beneficial action. If it boils down to having someone to complain to then leave me out of it, for the reasons mordorbund talks about.

I see little to no value in most of it, and it smacks of disloyalty.

Particularly if such scenes mimic your standard sit-com, with husbands and wives grousing to all that will hear about their spouse's imperfections and failings (I'm not saying this was the case with your mother).

Edited October 18, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

When I was on my mission, I realized that while I could ask my parents in a letter for advice on dealing with a companion or investigator, it would be weeks before I got a response and their answer would only be based on the one-sided report I gave them. It was more valuable to pray for guidance and work it out with my companion than to rely on biased third-party advice, regardless of how close that third party is to me.

When I got married I shared this lesson with my wife and asked her if she had any problems with me to share them with me instead of calling her sister and parents. As a contrast, her sister would call her whenever she had a grievance with her husband. Guess what? Her family took her side and agreed he was scummy. Then they would patch up, and the issue would blow over because it was just a case of two people learning to live together. But nobody else is told for days, so he continues to be the bad guy during this time, and afterwards there's a certain level of incredulity that things are so great and that he really is a great guy. That man now has to be perfect around his in-laws or they automatically fall back to the scummy portrayal of him that was slowly built by his own advocate - his wife.

If Mom is having problems with Dad (or vice versa), I hope she's talking to him first and foremost. If I'm getting pulled in, then it better be because they've both decided to include me in this discussion, in which case there's probably not really a marital issue going on.

Yeah, that's sad about your wife's brother-in-law. It doesn't happen in our family because my parents consider the in-laws part of the family. So, for example, if I talk to my mom about my husband, the first thing she does is ask me to give the phone to my husband because she also wants to be assured he's ok.

[Guest]

I'm with Vort, if I can be of practical use to the situation then go ahead and let me know both how and the background information required to take beneficial action. If it boils down to having someone to complain to then leave me out of it, for the reasons mordorbund talks about.

There's a lot of benefit in just being able to vent and confide in someone even if that someone is of no practical use to the situation. If that someone makes judgement without bothering to see all sides of the story, the fault is on his head.

[Dravin]

There's a lot of benefit in just being able to vent and confide in someone even if that someone is of no practical use to the situation.

Not if that confiding is predicated on disloyalty. If your spouse knows, and agrees*, that you want to confide in your best friend, sibling, or child about your marital issue X then disloyalty isn't an issue, though unintended consequences are still alive and kicking. Venting however is a horse of a different color, I have a hard time picturing a scenario in which it is genuinely appropriate (as opposed to understandable). We're better off seeking solutions to marital problems rather than bitterly and emotionally shotgunning them to those around us.

If that someone makes judgement without bothering to see all sides of the story, the fault is on his head.

In other words, "If my gossip poisons someone against someone else, that's their own fault."

*It should be noted that I'm speaking of non-abusive marriages. The game changes a bit if you need to reach out to others to protect yourself and children in such situations.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Dravin

[Guest]

In other words, "If my gossip poisons someone against someone else, that's their own fault."

You think that if my mom confides her problems to me she's GOSSIPING???? Does Beefche's mom know this?

[Guest]

I'm sorry but I can't help thinking that this is another way that Satan has won the fight against eternal families... The "it's not my business" arsenal in his mega tool box.

[Dravin]

You think that if my mom confides her problems to me she's GOSSIPING????

If your mother is calling you up to complain and vent about about your father without his permission, particularly without seeking a solution then yes, it's gossip. It's probably 'mild' gossip, but that doesn't change its nature, just its impact.

Does Beefche's mom know this?

Beefche and I are in agreement concerning the role of loyalty, trust, and privacy in marriage if that is what you are getting at. That is to say she agrees that complaining and venting to parents, siblings, and friends about marital issues isn't good. If you're trying to imply my mother-in-law's opinion would be actually relevant to mine, I'm not seeing the connection (I don't see my mother's as relevant either). If someone considers what they are doing gossiping or not doesn't determine if it's gossiping.

I'm sorry but I can't help thinking that this is another way that Satan has won the fight against eternal families... The "it's not my business" arsenal in his mega tool box.

See, and I can't help thinking that, disloyalty, violating trust, gossip, and thoughtless words are some of the arsenals in his tool box. In all actuality I suspect there is miscommunication going on, I think there is thoughtful, considered, appropriate confidences when discussing one's marriage, there is also gossip, complaining, and venting that is disloyal and damaging. I do think the latter outweighs the former by a fair margin in occurrence, and you can keep the latter away from me by a large margin thank you very much, both on the receiving or sending end.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Dravin

[beefche]

anatess, maybe the words "venting" and "gossip" are tripping you up.

Simply counseling with parents, friends, or siblings isn't necessarily gossip or venting. Going to another for advice and counsel can be very beneficial, but to remain loyal to your spouse, I would STRONGLY encourage someone to have prior permission from the spouse before doing such. Dravin and I have discussed this before and I believe we are in agreement in how we treat this subject.

However, to go to a friend or relative to simply complain about your spouse is considered venting or gossiping. Complaining is not conducive to a harmonious relationship between you and your spouse or your spouse and the friend/relative to whom you've complained. Typically, venting means you are not asking for counsel or advice--you just want someone to let you cry, rant, rave, and otherwise bad mouth your spouse.

[beefche]

Another thought:

I really do think there are some cultural differences here. I can see anatess's point about going to a loved one for help rather than seeking out a stranger for help.

However, because some problems need more professional help, I certainly can see that going to a qualified stranger can be a bigger help. Also, it really would be uncomfortable for some (including me) to listen to my parent's problems and feel some responsibility to help their marriage. No matter what I am their child and there are some things I just don't want to know about my parents. My reaction to their problems would likely be that of their child rather than their trusted counselor.

[Guest]

Here's the thing about venting about your marriage problems. I could go to my mom or my sister and lay out all the things my husband does that bothers me, or gripe about some boneheaded thing he did. Even worse (way worse, and it's a hobby I detest) I could do it in a group of "my" women. I might even feel better, we could laugh about it and brainstorm "solutions".

Then I'll go home, it will eventually blow over, and things will be okay. I love my husband more than anyone, so I'll forgive and forget. My family loves him, but not in the same way, and every time I lay out one of his flaws, I change the way they see him. If it's a bigger mistake, they're not going to forgive him in the same way. They will just see that he hurt their daughter/sister, and always remember that. That's not "on their heads". It's human nature. They don't live with him, understand his background, or adore him in the same way.

That's why it's a violation of trust. It's undermining his relationships with them.

If it's a much bigger issue, I might go to my parents in private for counsel. That's a different thing, because as my parents they still hold some stewardship over me and have more years and wisdom for me to draw on. I've considered going to a sister, but in weighing it I have never had a problem bad enough that it was worth hurting my husband's standing with them.

I suppose you'll say that's superficial or dishonest in some way, but it's not. It's simply not their business to know where my husband fails in my marriage. I don't want him laying my faults bare to his siblings, either. They're actually the type of people that would use things against me later.

If you're talking about major issues like abuse, adultery, or addiction, I might go to a sister for help. But I'm not going to call a family meeting or anything and let everyone know we're having marital problems. I still can't see that it's anyone's responsibility to fix that for us. A counselor has training, is being paid, but most importantly is pbjective. When you go to a sibling and "vent" about your spouse, there is an absence of objectivity, especially since they only get the benefit of hearing one side.

As for going to children, I find that wholly inappropriate. You're putting them in the position of having to judge the two people they look up to and rely on most in the world. You're tarnishing their view of their dad or mom. That is not fair. It's dysfunctional, if you ask me, especially if you're talking about normal marital disagreements. My MIL does it, and all it does for anyone is make her look bad, and we know things about FIL that he'd be embarrassed to have other people know, that we're uncomfortable to know, and that are none of our business.

To say it's Satan's plan that we stay out of each other's marriages is silly. The only thing my family misses out on by keeping those things private is judgment and drama. And thank goodness for that. If I need help with a marital issue, I'll go to an appropriate, impartial person like a counselor or my bishop. If I really need counsel I'll go to my bishop or parents, and maybe there's a circumstance where I'll privately go to a sister I can trust to keep quiet. If I really just need to vent, I have a bestie I'll talk to, and we have an understanding about that, plus we don't have relationships with each other's husbands.

I cannot imagine a situation where I'd ever feel compelled to go to a child, especially with the expectation that they should have any responsibility for repairing it. If it didn't work and we split up, should they feel like it's their fault?

Edited October 18, 2013 by Eowyn