Spanish in America

[Guest]

Okay okay... I know I've been really lighthearted in this thread (meds still making my head foggy)...

But official language is VERY important to a nation. Yes, I know America does not have a Federally recognized official language but, the Federal Government use English.

Okay, let me just highlight an important lesson from Philippine History. The Philippines was "conquered" by Spain in the late 1500's. Before that time, the Philippines was a collection of tribes under Tribal leaders and Tribal Law. Each Tribe has their own language. One of the reasons that the Tribes were not able to reject Spanish Colonization successfully because one Tribe is no match for the Spanish armada. It required that the Tribes band together to fight off Spain. Unfortunately, the only way Tribes band together is through barter commerce. They didn't really need to understand each other because they just point to something they want and point to something they offer. And Tribes were connected in that manner. Organizing an army though is a different matter. Nobody can do it because they can't understand each other.

So, in comes Spain. For 300 years, Spain suppressed the natives by making a law where it is illegal for natives to learn Spanish. This prevented the tribes from establishing good communication amongst each other. Currently, the Philippines have 49 distinct dialects - that is, as different as Spanish is to English. Within those 49 dialects are thousands of sub-dialects - that is, as different as English is to Ebonics. These are dialects that survived the merging of the Tribes under Spanish rule... so in the early days, there were even more dialects than these.

The first step to Filipinos starting the rebellion is for Filipinos to learn Spanish underground. So that when Jose Rizal wrote these fictional novels in Spanish it passed through the Spanish government without an issue... but the books actually contained a call and formula for Filipinos to follow to rise to rebellion! Those who learned Spanish were able to spread the world in the underground until finally the Filipinos got organized enough to call a rebellion.

After Spain sold the Philippines to America, Spanish got replaced by English. It confused the Filipinos again. But, America held to their promise to grant Filipinos freedom. So the Philippines adopted an official language - Filipino. No, it's not Tagalog (there are Filipinos who will tell you this!). Filipino is one language that is "created" by picking out the most common words among the 49 dialects and arranging them into the Tagalog sentence structure. Tagalog almost became extinct, but there are people that are trying to preserve it.

Okay, why this is important to America. A representative republic relies on people's knowledgeable vote. The Federal Government is currently in English. Every law that gets written and passed in Congress, every Executive Order in the Administration, every statements from the Supreme Court are all in English. There is no available translation for any other language.

If you can't understand those papers, it is difficult to cast a knowledgeable vote or to even know what the law is. And you can't know if what the people are telling you in your own language is accurate according to the papers. This is true for the States as well, therefore some States adopted an official language. If you can't understand/speak that language, your capacity to cast a knowledgeable vote and live under the law of the land may be diminished.

So yes, you can talk Spanish or French or whatever language as your primary language. But the entire country needs to adopt a common language that everybody is required to learn to be a citizen or a resident of the country.

I speak Bisaya. But, I had to learn Filipino otherwise, I won't graduate from Elementary School let alone High School. Because the Philippine Government uses Filipino. We are also required to learn English because English is the official language for international trade. All Philippine schools teach Science and Math in English starting in Kindergarten. So English language instruction also start in Kindergarten.

So, in my experience, I see the importance of the adoption of an official language.

Edited October 30, 2013 by anatess

[Lakumi]

in Canada English and French are official languages, mind you French is only common in parts of Ontario, Quebec (obviously) and a great swathe of New Brunswick

[mnn727]

Every law that gets written and passed in Congress, every Executive Order in the Administration, every statements from the Supreme Court are all in English. There is no available translation for any other language.

If you can't understand those papers, it is difficult to cast a knowledgeable vote or to even know what the law is.

Actually the laws are written in legalese, which is why even native born English speakers can not understand them.

[Traveler]

And yet, it's been happening almost since the world began. Even English isn't a "pure" language. When the Vikings invaded England the English changed and took on several of their words (and culture). When the Christians from mainland Europe came spreading the Gospel, English adopted words (and culture) from Latin and Greek. Language and culture have never been static. They're always changing and adapting. We just happen to be living through a period of history where now Spanish is starting to come in and make it's influence felt on our current language and culture. I don't find it arrogant or offensive. I find it as being the nature of humanity.

In essence you are making my point - the culture of speaking English has been a culture of incorporation or if you will a melting pot. The English language takes, by culture of the language from many other languages. The simple truth is that English has more words and expressions than any other language. In fact so much so that English has more words and expressions than the next highest two in existence.

I am not posting because I do not believe in speaking any other language. I do think it is important to teach other languages and I believe that to obtain a high school degree that one should be able to speak, read and write in a minimum of 3 languages and to obtain any college degree one should be required to speak, read and write in a minimum of 5 languages.

But my point is that English should be one of the languages. And I believe that anyone applying for a permanent visa or citizenship in the USA ought to be required to speak, read and write English as a minimum for language skills. That to give any indication that English is not an important investment for the success of an immigrant desiring to live in the USA is, above all else, a disservice (even a handicap) to that person wishing to live here. Not to perverse English in the USA but in order to successfully integrate someone wishing to live and function - the one common denominator.

The Traveler

[bytebear]

Funny story: A guy I know traveled to Germany, and was chewed out by a shopkeeper for trying to speak German. Apparently, this shopkeeper thought if this guy wasn't going to have the common decency to be born in Germany, he should just stick to his own dang language instead of trying to pretend to be something he's not.

I went to Holland with a friend who spoke Dutch. They did the same kind of thing. He ordered dinner in Dutch and the waiter in his snarkiest English said "Yes sir, I will get your food for you."

But most countries are very leery of immigrants. The old story is that in other countries, they say "Welcome to our country. How long will it be until you leave?" whereas in the US, it's "Welcome to our country. How long until you apply for citizenship?"

[Guest]

But most countries are very leery of immigrants. The old story is that in other countries, they say "Welcome to our country. How long will it be until you leave?" whereas in the US, it's "Welcome to our country. How long until you apply for citizenship?"

Uhm, maybe for Mexicans crossing the border through the river. If you've been through customs, it is quite a daunting experience. If you don't say the right things or act the right way, you'll be lucky if you can get 2 months stay.

[Bini]

Anatess, the system can be daunting and seem impossible. I got a couple Filipino friends that were born here but I have a couple that moved to the US about ten years ago. I actually knew three of them from when I lived in Manila. One of them married an American and was able to bring two of her youngest children over. Her oldest son was denied entry into the US. She has been fighting this battle for awhile, and honestly, I don't know all the details that it entails. But he wouldn't be a burden on society, he is a nurse in the Philippines and would plan on working in the medical field here in Utah, he speaks great English and another dialect as well. He's applied multiple times and has been denied all those times. So she goes back to the Philippines to see her son and her grandbabies because they are not able to come here. It's a familiar story for many legally trying to get into the country. I think we all know that life just isn't fair.

[bytebear]

Uhm, maybe for Mexicans crossing the border through the river. If you've been through customs, it is quite a daunting experience. If you don't say the right things or act the right way, you'll be lucky if you can get 2 months stay.

Im talking about people who are here on work visas or other temporary or temp to perm status. Not illegals, although it seems that sneaking over the border is the easiest path to citizenship. California just passed laws to allow drivers licenses as well as to practice law and serve on juries. Meanwhile in the Philippines...

[mrmarklin]

It's been generations already, this topic isn't something new, but I'm wondering how everyone feels about Spanish quickly becoming or already is the unofficial second language here in America. How do you, personally, feel about that?

I'm paraphrasing this but I read something that I got a chuckle out of:

A woman stands in the checkout line, chatting on her cellphone in another language. A man stands behind her, perturbed that she is not speaking English. When she finally gets off the phone he proceeds to make a comment, "I didn't want to say anything while you were on the phone with your friend but you're in America now, you should speak English." The woman smiles and says, "I'm speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, go back to England."

What would some of these people do if they were born in Switzerland with 3 official languages???

Where countries are close together like Europe, its not uncommon for educated people to speak 5 or more languages.

In the Netherlands even the bums on the street speak English.

[nightcrawler1977]

Its not .

To be fair though, English is only "unofficially official" in much of the US as well. It's not recognized as the Official Language in any Federal law that I'm aware of, and only a few states have made it their official language.

[nightcrawler1977]

i have had that happen to me , i was talking to my mom on the phone and had some lady chew me out for not speaking english .

It's been generations already, this topic isn't something new, but I'm wondering how everyone feels about Spanish quickly becoming or already is the unofficial second language here in America. How do you, personally, feel about that?

I'm paraphrasing this but I read something that I got a chuckle out of:

A woman stands in the checkout line, chatting on her cellphone in another language. A man stands behind her, perturbed that she is not speaking English. When she finally gets off the phone he proceeds to make a comment, "I didn't want to say anything while you were on the phone with your friend but you're in America now, you should speak English." The woman smiles and says, "I'm speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, go back to England."

[Guest]

Im talking about people who are here on work visas or other temporary or temp to perm status. Not illegals, although it seems that sneaking over the border is the easiest path to citizenship. California just passed laws to allow drivers licenses as well as to practice law and serve on juries. Meanwhile in the Philippines...

Well, don't know how it is for everyone else, but unless you're ready to go underground, your work visa expires and you'll have to apply again. And it is not easy to get a visa in the first place. It took me years to get mine. And I only got it because I'm a programmer and Y2K was the thing... It is easier to be an illegal immigrant than a legit one.

[Lakumi]

I went to Holland with a friend who spoke Dutch. They did the same kind of thing. He ordered dinner in Dutch and the waiter in his snarkiest English said "Yes sir, I will get your food for you."

But most countries are very leery of immigrants. The old story is that in other countries, they say "Welcome to our country. How long will it be until you leave?" whereas in the US, it's "Welcome to our country. How long until you apply for citizenship?"

"Welcome to Canada, Free Health Care is but a card away... oh and pick a hockey team to route for"

[carlimac]

This is a topic that causes my head to spin. I really think deep in my heart that if you come to the US and plan to stay- then learn English. Here in ID we are swamped with Spanish. I don't begrudge native Spanish speaking people talking to each other in public. That seems perfectly normal. I even enjoy hearing other languages spoken which happens sometimes since we are fairly close to a very popular National Park that has visitors from all over the world.

I do get my knickers in a bunch though over the immigrants ( illegal or otherwise) who come here and expect the country to change and bend over backward for them without them trying to, at the very least, meet us halfway. I don't care if their English is perfect. But I would expect them to at least try to understand the national language and not use lack of understanding as an excuse to buck the system or not follow the law or get out of responsibilities. It also bothers me that there are so many kids in the public school system that get zero help from their parents on homework because they don't speak any English. These kids struggle! And they consequently drag the whole class down because their teachers have to slow everything down for them. As I have been researching different school districts for our possible move, it's true and unfortunate that the school districts that perform the worst academically are the ones with high numbers of Hispanics who tend to struggle more with the language and in finding work, etc. Now don't go calling me a racist. Some of the smartest, most accomplished and productive people I know are of different race and nationality than me. And there are plenty of slacker native white-skinned English speakers who pull the numbers down, too.

OK, after all this said, my youngest son served a Spanish speaking state-side mission and loves those people he taught who haven't made a ton of effort to learn English. His mission afforded him the chance to learn to speak a different language fluently but stay in the states where he could quickly get superior medical treatment over what he could have gotten in So. or Central America or Europe. (He has some chronic medical conditions that could go very bad quickly without that treatment.)

I also served a mission in Argentina and love the language and the people. But I do feel just a hint or more of frustration at those who don't make an effort to acclimate to America. It can be very unfair to more than just themselves. It's basically selfish.

[rameumptom]

I think many immigrants would love to learn English, given the chance.

However, historically it usually has taken a few generations to move from a native language to English. Part of the reason is that peoples tend to group together with others they are familiar with. So, when my ancestors immigrated from the Ukraine, they gatherd in the Dakotas with other German-Russian immigrants that worshiped as they did, held similar celebrations, worked alike, and spoke German/Russian.

I'm sure all of us have had ancestors who took a few generations to learn the language well. We should give the same consideration to the new immigrants.

[carlimac]

I think many immigrants would love to learn English, given the chance.

However, historically it usually has taken a few generations to move from a native language to English. Part of the reason is that peoples tend to group together with others they are familiar with. So, when my ancestors immigrated from the Ukraine, they gatherd in the Dakotas with other German-Russian immigrants that worshiped as they did, held similar celebrations, worked alike, and spoke German/Russian.

I'm sure all of us have had ancestors who took a few generations to learn the language well. We should give the same consideration to the new immigrants.

I disagree. First of all, this isn't "a few generations ago". This is America 2013 and there are endless opportunities to learn English if one wants to. It's easily accessible. It's taught free in almost any mid sized town in the country. If they don't live where it's taught, many of these new folks have computers. They can easily figure out how to find an online class. Or get someone to help them find one. I sometimes get the feeling that the mentality is that, "OK I'm here in the US. Now life should be easy." No, it's not going to be easy. It takes honest effort and hard work to have the good life here. No drug dealing allowed.

Sorry for my lil bit of rancor coming out. It's a stereotype that doesn't fit every one of them. But still, it's pretty visible around here.

[Guest]

I think many immigrants would love to learn English, given the chance.

I live in Florida. Lots of people here are proud not to know a lick of English. Even cops have to learn Spanish here. (South Florida)

However, historically it usually has taken a few generations to move from a native language to English. Part of the reason is that peoples tend to group together with others they are familiar with. So, when my ancestors immigrated from the Ukraine, they gatherd in the Dakotas with other German-Russian immigrants that worshiped as they did, held similar celebrations, worked alike, and spoke German/Russian.

I'm sure all of us have had ancestors who took a few generations to learn the language well. We should give the same consideration to the new immigrants.

Not really. Just like anyone can pick up French through a few high school classes... anybody who is willing can learn English, especially since people have every single opportunity to get immersed in it here in the US. The problem with Americans learning French in high school is that there's not many opportunities to practice it, so you eventually lose the skill before gaining thorough proficiency in it. But, take high school French and then live in France for a few years... you'll be French speaking in less than a generation.

[Bini]

What would some of these people do if they were born in Switzerland with 3 official languages???

Where countries are close together like Europe, its not uncommon for educated people to speak 5 or more languages.

In the Netherlands even the bums on the street speak English.

It is true.

My father speaks six languages apart from English, two he is fluent in, two he is comfortable with, and two he does a fair job with. All us kids in the family speak and read French, though I admit for me it has become rusty over the years but I've used it every time that I've travelled abroad. When we lived in Portugal, the family also picked up Portuguese, and we only lived there about two years. To learn another language is doable but again, you can't fight the tide when you're quickly becoming the minority, as others have stated.

[Traveler]

I just thought to point out that on a number of recent occasions that G-d (both the Father and the Son) when just visiting the USA; spoke English. :)

The Traveler

[Guest]

I just thought to point out that on a number of recent occasions that G-d (both the Father and the Son) when just visiting the USA; spoke English. :)

The Traveler

But then, that's just speculation. It could be that they spoke God language that Joseph translated into English.

[Traveler]

But then, that's just speculation. It could be that they spoke God language that Joseph translated into English.

I have a friend that married a very wonder Filipino lady - her father is a Filipino area authority (though I forget his name). In a conversation with him he told me that as part of his calling (he also works for the LDS Church) he was required to learn English - which BTW he spoke very well. I am not sure I want to make a point here because I fear that it would be misunderstood. However, it is my opinion that if one wants to get as close as possible to understanding divine theology - doctrines and covenants from scriptures and other sources in this dispensation - that they ought to learn English.

I also believe that anyone that wishes to touch someone with the spirit that they make every effort to converse with that person in their native (first) language.

The Traveler