Mental illness vs. physical illness

[person122]

Maybe we could discuss what our different definitions of mental illness are.

[Finrock]

Each day I do things that weaken my faith. Each day I find myself entertaining some notion of unbelief. Repentance is essential. We can't be healed completely if we don't repent completely and have a change of heart. Any unbelief on our part weakens the effectiveness of the atonement to heal us.

As has been pointed out, repetance is more than just getting rid of sins. It is a complete change in how you live your life. It is a change in attitude. Change in perspective. Change in assumptions. Change in priorities. Change in trust. Change in how, what, and where you go for comfort. It is a change in what you believe or trust will heal you, fix you, or cure you. It is a change from impatience to patience. It is moving away from all things that are not good and moving towards all things that are good.

This change is overwhelming and impossible unless we exercise faith in Jesus Christ.

This talk from Elder Scott has been extremely helpful in helping me to understand and finally realize the great power of the Atonement to heal me of my mental and physical ailments. I quote, in my view, powerful portions from his talk:

Satan recognizes that healing comes through the unwavering love of Heavenly Father for each of His children. He also understands that the power of healing is inherent in the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Therefore, his strategy is to do all possible to separate you from your Father and His Son. Do not let Satan convince you that you are beyond help...

Satan will strive to alienate you from your Father in Heaven with the thought that if He loved you He would have prevented the tragedy. Do not be kept from the very source of true healing by the craftiness of the prince of evil and his wicked lies. Recognize that if you have feelings that you are not loved by your Father in Heaven, you are being manipulated by Satan. Even when it may seem very difficult to pray, kneel and ask Father in Heaven to give you the capacity to trust Him and to feel His love for you. Ask to come to know that His Son can heal you through His merciful Atonement...

The beginning of healing requires childlike faith in the unalterable fact that Father in Heaven loves you and has supplied a way to heal. His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, laid down His life to provide that healing. But there is no magic solution, no simple balm to provide healing, nor is there an easy path to the complete remedy. The cure requires profound faith in Jesus Christ and in His infinite capacity to heal. [Healing] is rooted in an understanding of doctrine and a resolute determination to follow it...(Emphasis added)

If there are things in our life that seem too difficult to let go or get rid of at the moment, we need not feel discouraged. The atonement allows us to put things that we must change in our life aside for a time "until [we] have more experience with the Savior’s healing power in [our] own life" (Elder Scott) or until we have gained enough faith in the Atonement's power. I know I need this gift of grace in my life.

EDIT:

During your journey of recovery, accept His invitation to let Him share your burden until you have sufficient time and strength to be healed.

-Finrock

Edited December 6, 2013 by Finrock
Added another quote from Elder Scott

[applepansy]

I had a thought pop into my head.

We all often thing of repentance and the atonement as being solely for someone doing something wrong. But the Atonement is so much more than that. When we allow the Atonement to work in our lives it can help us heal in ways that have nothing to do with sin. I think repentance in the context of healing would definitely mean the change JAG referenced.

[applepansy]

[Traveler]

I was asking Traveler, who is the one using the word "repentance".

From the reference material (Bible Dictionary) provided in LDS Scriptures - reference Repentance:

The Greek word of which this is the translation denotes a change of mind, a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world.

Please note that a change of mind - is a "type" of repentance. Any improvement in a mental illness by definition would be repentance. I honestly regret that such negativity is attached to repentance. I personally am convinced that all good that comes from G-d - including every blessing or miracle is realized by repentance.

I hope this possible change of mind (view of things) helps.

The Traveler

[person122]

Now are you talking about mental illness being changed from learned behavior? Example: Parents came from home where physically abused. Therefore grow up emotionally damaged, marry, have children and kids learn unhealthy mental ways to cope with life from parents? Or do you mean a change from mental illness like schizophrenia to normal mental health?

[person122]

I approach this topic with trepidation, since I run the risk of alienating many here whom I like. But if we can't discuss such topics, you have to wonder if it's worth participating in a "discussion" board.

I now can understand your dilemma. The definition of mental illness has become very broad. Maybe there wouldn't be so much misunderstanding if they put these things into more categories. I have been going over it and going over it my head. It is good for me to know and think about because it would be so easy to hurt someone's feelings because I didn't know how broad it is. I'm confused because I think if I had gone to counseling or a psychologist at certain points in my life I would have been labeled as having a mental illness. And I don't mean that sarcastically or anything.

[dahlia]

Vort - I am trying to understand the gist of your question - are the mentally ill responsible for their illness? Is that it or do I misunderstand?

My personal experience: I have a half sister who is schizophrenic; so freaking out there that she got SSDI the first time she went up for it, which is very unusual. She started imagining plots against her when she was in prep school. She couldn't stand the school, etc. and my parents moved her from school to school, when she complained. When she went to college, she started hearing voices and having hallucinations. Again, two colleges, 'everyone is against me everywhere I go' stuff. She doesn't seem to have hallucinations now, but she is probably 49 and has done nothing with her life. None of us sees her, though my mother will call her. She was a nasty person, turning off everyone who tried to help her (short of getting her real medical help).

I don't think she choose this for herself. She wasn't a bad kid, but she became the kind of nasty, demanding .itch on wheels that I don't think she made things better for herself. Still, I won't say she choose being schizophrenic. Being a .itch schizophrenic didn't help, tho.

Another half sister is just climbing out of years of depression following her father's death. She stayed home to help our mother take care of him. Speaking as a widow who had to work and support my son, this one I wanted to smack into next year. By not working and not getting any financial assistance ('cause, thanks to the ACLU, you can't drag these people to get mental help anymore), she practically has driven my mother crazy, created so much stress and financial hardship (that I am supposed to rectify) that the anger toward her is palpable.

Is depression a mental issue? Of course. Are there meds? Yes. Do people work and take care of their families when they are depressed? Yes again. I lost my husband - right after I was laid off from a job. There was a little insurance and while I was able to stay home and vegetate for awhile, eventually I had to suck it up and go to work. I'd go to work, come home and cry, and go to work the next day. My sister gave up on everything, including her teen-aged son, and sat in her room for years. Years.

I know depression can be chemical, she probably should have gotten medication earlier (see above note re ACLU), I know telling her to 'snap out of it' isn't going to do much good on one hand, but many people lose their parents. Many people are single mothers and have to deal with it. I really have no pity for her. To me, this one chose her illness. She lives with my mother, doesn't have to pay any bills, and took advantage of this to hang out in her room. The rest of society, those of us with mortgages and car payments and kids getting ready for college, suck it up and keep going. I feel she is taking advantage of my mother, and the rest of us by extension. I will never believe she didn't choose to wallow in her depression.

This is probably a hard way of looking at her situation, but that's how it is. So, I guess my response to 'are people mentally ill by choice?' is 'sometimes.' The second sister got to sit home, not work, not help her son with college, etc., while everyone else picked up her load. Must be nice.

[Vort]

Vort - I am trying to understand the gist of your question - are the mentally ill responsible for their illness? Is that it or do I misunderstand?

It's not so much a question as a discussion topic, and I am not offering a firm opinion so much as an extended meditation.

Many have compared mental illness with physical illness. If we are to take that comparison literally, it results in interesting and, I believe, useful ideas. For example, in the large view, "physical illness" encompasses everything from a runny nose to cancerous lesions to bad breath to multiple amputations. Similarly, "mental illness" would run the gamut from waking up with a bad attitude to full-blown psychoses to fixating on an idea or emotion to uncontrollable, murderous rage.

Not everyone is responsible for his poor physical condition -- but many are. However, even those who, because of bad diet and lack of rigor in exercise, ARE responsible for their condition, still should be treated with respect and their trials understood with sympathy. Very few if any morally "deserve" their poor physical health, even alcoholics, smokers, and other drug abusers.

Similarly, not everyone is responsible for his poor mental health -- but many are. However, even those who, because of untamed desires and lack of self-discipline, ARE responsible for their condition, still should be treated with respect and their trials understood with sympathy. Few if any morally "deserve" their poor mental health, even those who pursue lifestyles and life choices that make it the likely outcome.

But for some reason, it's considered impolite and in poor taste to point out that, you know, many cases of mental illness all across the spectrum result from choices made by the individual. Certainly there are legitimate cases of "deficient brain chemistry", just as there are legitimate cases of physical dysfunction. But the existence of such cases does not therefore mean that anyone who suffers, physically or mentally, is helpless to avoid or ameliorate such things.

I am all for helping people to overcome their problems, physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual. I learned as a teenager that if I played the "victim" card, I was ceding my power to overcome, and that the more I was willing to understand what part I played in my own failures, the better chance I had of overcoming those failures. As far as I can tell, this same truism holds in the case of mental health. Obviously, there are some cases outside of anyone's immediate control, but that does not account for the bulk of mental dysfunction that we see. And until we gladly and anxiously accept responsibility for our own decisions and for our own situations, I don't see how those problems just magically vanish.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Vort

[Finrock]

Good Evening Vort. :)

It is the last two paragraphs that are true but they beg the question: Why point out obvious facts?

But for some reason, it's considered impolite and in poor taste to point out that, you know, many cases of mental illness all across the spectrum result from choices made by the individual. Certainly there are legitimate cases of "deficient brain chemistry", just as there are legitimate cases of physical dysfunction. But the existence of such cases does not therefore mean that anyone who suffers, physically or mentally, is helpless to avoid or ameliorate such things.

I think context and circumstance determines whether it is impolite or in poor taste. I think before we point out such facts we ought to ask ourselves what are we hoping to accomplish? What is really our motivation?

Such statements seem so self-evident that it is hard not to wonder what is being implied? If I take it at face value, that you are simply stating a fact, then okay...

I agree: Some people make choices that cause them to have a mental illness; other people have a mental illness despite any personal choice.

I am all for helping people to overcome their problems, physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual. I learned as a teenager that if I played the "victim" card, I was ceding my power to overcome, and that the more I was willing to understand what part I played in my own failures, the better chance I had of overcoming those failures. As far as I can tell, this same truism holds in the case of mental health. Obviously, there are some cases outside of anyone's immediate control, but that does not account for the bulk of mental dysfunction that we see. And until we gladly and anxiously accept responsibility for our own decisions and for our own situations, I don't see how those problems just magically vanish.

You don't speak falsehoods. However, except in very limited cases, you would be in err in accusing others (no matter how true you know or think it is) of not "gladly and anxiously accepting responsibility for their own decisions".

The following isn't a platitude even though it is quoted often:

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

Whatever position we take in the interim, our ultimate goal is charity. Charity "thinketh no evil". It doesn't think evil things neither does it think evil of others. Charity bears all things. Charity believes all things.

In a world of accusations and unfriendliness, it is easy to gather and cast stones. But before we do so, let us remember the words of the One who is our Master and model: “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.”

Brothers and sisters, let us put down our stones.

Let us be kind.

Let us forgive.

Let us talk peacefully with each other.

Let the love of God fill our hearts.

“Let us do good unto all men.”

The Savior promised: “Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over. … For with the same measure that [you use] it shall be measured to you again.”

I think you are making true statements but (whether you are saying this or not) the remedy is not in accusing others of not being responsible and accountable. The remedy is all together different:

Nothing is so much calculated to lead people to forsake sin as to take them by the hand and to watch over them in tenderness. When persons manifest the least kindness and love to me, O what pow'r it has over my mind.

-Finrock

Edited December 7, 2013 by Finrock
Clarification, grammar

[Vort]

It is the last two paragraphs that are true but they beg the question: Why point out obvious facts?

If these facts are so obvious, why are they rarely pointed out in discussions of mental health? In any discussion of physical health, you are sure to hear encouragement to take care of yourself, to avoid sickness, and to take responsibility for your life. Yet such things are almost never heard in the context of mental health, at least in my experience.

[Finrock]

If these facts are so obvious, why are they rarely pointed out in discussions of mental health? In any discussion of physical health, you are sure to hear encouragement to take care of yourself, to avoid sickness, and to take responsibility for your life. Yet such things are almost never heard in the context of mental health, at least in my experience.

I would have to take your word for it that they are rarely pointed out in discussions of mental health.

Although based on the testimony of others on this forum the opposite is true: Quite often when mental health issues are discussed someone points out that in many cases the person suffering caused it themselves or that often the person can do something to ameliorate their suffering (Eowyn, Loudmouth, Praetorian, Traveller).

I think before a meaningful answer to your question can be provided it needs to be demonstrated that your premise is true; that there is some deficiency in pointing out personal accountability and responsibility to those who have mental illnesses.

-Finrock

Edited December 7, 2013 by Finrock
Grammar

[Sali]

I have suffered on and off with depression and anxiety ever since I was adolescent. I cannot take medication for it so have had to get along the best I can with it. After one particularly bad bout which really threw me under and took me a good few years to get over, I returned back to school to train to become a Therapeutic Counselor. On this course I became educated about mental illness. I learned that it is important to look out for my own personal triggers of what brings on my depression and anxiety. The reason I am saying this is that although for me, depression and anxiety are part of my biological make up, they are not a choice, I can help myself by becoming aware of what my triggers are and what works for me in helping myself to avoid or counteract these triggers before they affect me too greatly. I feel very blessed to have been able to learn this for myself. If I could take medication it would make it so much easier. Many people need both medication and therapy and there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

It is very important to remember that some people do get stuck in a rut with depression and it does control their lives and they may not have the tools or stamina to be able to help themselves. We are each born with different temperaments and different levels of being able to cope. I know through my own experience that my levels of coping are way below what they used to be before I became ill. Just because some people can pull themselves out of depression or other situations, does not mean that everyone has that same ability to do so.

Saying all of that, there are people out there who do take advantage and may have a mild form and use it to be able to sponge of society or other people. I am aware of some people who I know who do just that. It's hard and frustrating to see that, especially when you do know people who are really suffering. But then the Counselor in me, looks at that and wonders why they feel the need to do that. Each of our life scripts are so different and there's always a reason we do everything.

One thing is for sure, we are all on the mental health spectrum to one degree or another.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Sali

[Sali]

If these facts are so obvious, why are they rarely pointed out in discussions of mental health? In any discussion of physical health, you are sure to hear encouragement to take care of yourself, to avoid sickness, and to take responsibility for your life. Yet such things are almost never heard in the context of mental health, at least in my experience.

Because mental illness has been pushed aside and underfunded for so long by the health community. As I stated in my post, education of triggers and what I can do to recognize and avoid those triggers have been a great help to me. More education would really help this.

Some mental illness although, is totally unavoidable and can't be avoided at any cost, only controlled.

[Vort]

I think before a meaningful answer to your question can be provided it needs to be demonstrated that your premise is true; that there is some deficiency in pointing out personal accountability and responsibility to those who have mental illnesses.

Not really. It's my observation, not a mathematical hypothesis.

[applepansy]

Because mental illness has been pushed aside and underfunded for so long by the health community. As I stated in my post, education of triggers and what I can do to recognize and avoid those triggers have been a great help to me. More education would really help this.

Some mental illness although, is totally unavoidable and can't be avoided at any cost, only controlled.

I agree and disagree. There needs to be middle ground. yes, mental health has been underfunded, but that's because it was misunderstood. But we're swinging in the other direction now with even less understanding and compassion. Now everything should have an ICD-9 code. I think labeling every mood swing or difficult child is counterproductive. It doesn't help our families and friends understand and I don't think it helps the person either.

Educating the public about mental health issues is what needs to happen. Even today if a person really wants to understand you have to go to school and take psych classes. That doesn't need to be done with a broken bone. Thus the dilemma.

[Bini]

One thing is for sure, we are all on the mental health spectrum to one degree or another.

Spot on.

I don't believe anyone in this life is at 100% mentally or physically because that would imply perfection. And to claim that one has a perfect mind or a perfect body is opinion, whether that come from a doctor or oneself. Certainly, there are models of what the ideal psyche and physique should be but to claim they are perfect, is untrue.

[Quin]

Spot on.

I don't believe anyone in this life is at 100% mentally or physically because that would imply perfection. And to claim that one has a perfect mind or a perfect body is opinion, whether that come from a doctor or oneself. Certainly, there are models of what the ideal psyche and physique should be but to claim they are perfect, is untrue.

If they're not ADHD, they're not perfect!

I know a lot of people who are waiting for perfect in the next world to NOT include XYZ (Ahem. Like my stupid joints that someone decided to code the DNA for cardboard, duct tape, and glass... Instead of joints that's work all smooth & pain free) and TO include ABC (svelte, strong, symmetrical, whatever).

I believe a key point in 'perfection' is individual construct.

For ME... I wouldn't be perfect without being ADHD.

I love my mind.

I love the way that it works.

Some people would classify ADHD as mental illness.

I don't.

A disorder?

Fo'sho.

But not all disorders are undesirable.

Nor, do I believe all disorders to be mental sickness.

Maybe we could discuss what our different definitions of mental illness are.

To me... That's the dividing line between neurotypical, a disorder, and mental sickness:

Mental illness or defect is something WRONG with the brain.

Meanwhile, there are dozens of disorders where brains are simply DIFFERENT.

Of course, it's a whole 3rd conversation/aspect on whether or not the individual LIKES the difference / would want it with them in the next world.

Q

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