The Statement "i Know The Church Is True"

[smylie]

Hi,

Please don't think I am asking these questions with any negative undertones. I ask with the utmost respect to everyone here and sincerely hope I don't offend.

I have been studying the Mormon religion for awhile, (trying to "find my way", I guess) but still have lots of questions. There are a few things I don't want to ask my LDS friends for fear of offending. One thing that concerns me is that the couple of times I've visited the local ward, every speaker started out stating that they know the church is true. I heard alot about what role the church had played in their lives, and the importance of Joseph Smith, but very little, if anything, about Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit. It all seemed to be about the church itself, instead of a relationship and understanding of the ways of God and what he wants for/from us. Did I just attend on the wrong day?

Also, the teaching that if one is excommunicated from the church, that God "takes away" his promise of sealing them to their families if they were sealed. A friend of mine was threatend with excommunication when he was 17 for an indiscretion. He was told that if he did it again, he would be. I don't understand how someone from the local ward can decide what will happen to someones eternal soul, let alone give them "another chance".

One more thing, I have always been taught that families will be together, and husband and wife, if married by a man of God, transcends death, the two are one in God's eyes, because you have made a vow to God. You may get divorced in by a civil court, but you are commiting adultry in the eyes of God if you are "with" another person. Does the Mormon faith acknowledg this for other religions, or do you believe that everyone who is not Mormon will not be with any loved ones in any way. I understand 'sealing' in the Mormon faith, it's what you believe happens to the families who are not sealed by ceremony, but by love and faith in God, that I'm curious about.

For those of you who were kind enough to answer my last post. Thank you. I have resolved much in the past few days! My family is stronger than ever before and I believe with such peace that we are forever, eventhough we are not Mormon. Thank you for your advice, it was taken!

Again, please don't think I am being sarcastic or argumentative. It truely is not my intent.

Thanks!

S

[Dr T]

HI smylie,

My opinion is that marriage is an earthly union/temporary. I think the afterlife is about God and his worship. You asked some good questions smylie.

[CrimsonKairos]

I heard alot about what role the church had played in their lives, and the importance of Joseph Smith, but very little, if anything, about Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit. It all seemed to be about the church itself, instead of a relationship and understanding of the ways of God and what he wants for/from us. Did I just attend on the wrong day?

"The Church" is God's kingdom, administered by His Son Jesus Christ. When we say, "We know the Church is true," it usually means, "I know that God's kingdom is restored on earth with the necessary authority and ordinances to bring us back to His presence." Something like that. :) It is through joining Christ's Church and covenanting with God that we have a relationship with Him and Jesus. Hence, the common emphasis on "the Church being true," since it is the means whereby we participate in covenants with God.

Also, the teaching that if one is excommunicated from the church, that God "takes away" his promise of sealing them to their families if they were sealed. A friend of mine was threatend with excommunication when he was 17 for an indiscretion. He was told that if he did it again, he would be. I don't understand how someone from the local ward can decide what will happen to someones eternal soul, let alone give them "another chance".

We believe God invests His servants with differing degrees of authority to speak in His name and act for Him (under His guidance). On the local level, the Bishop would be following the rules the Lord has revealed about how his Church is to deal with sins and repentance. If the bishop judged that your friend needed to be excommunicated, it would have to be verified by leaders "higher up" in the Church. It's not "a person judging your friend," it's the Lord judging your friend through his servants here on earth who speak for him.

I understand 'sealing' in the Mormon faith, it's what you believe happens to the families who are not sealed by ceremony, but by love and faith in God, that I'm curious about.

Everyone will have the chance to hear the restored gospel and partake in its ordinances, whether in this life or the next. If a couple loves each other and dies without being sealed by God's authorized servants here on earth, they will have the chance to have someone perform that ordinance for them so that if they want, they can have a "forever marriage." That's why the LDS Church places such an emphasis on temples and temple attendance...it's there that we experience the highest blessings of God and help share those with others who have died without hearing of them while on earth.

Best of luck with your search. :)

[smylie]

HI smylie,

My opinion is that marriage is an earthly union/temporary. I think the afterlife is about God and his worship. You asked some good questions smylie.

I have been taught that in Heaven we will all love one another as we love our families now, that we will all be the family of Christ, but will recognize people we had earthly relationships with. I guess because of my new found closeness with husband (after many hours of discussions, confessions, forgivnesses, and reconnecting) I want it to be just the way it is FOREVER.

[Dr T]

I hear you smylie. My wife and I are close. We have only been married ten years, but it feels like forever. I can't imagine being without her. She fills in my weaknesses. She is someone I can depend on. She is a fantastic mother to our four children. She is friendly and well liked by the community. etc., etc., etc. I is difficult to me to imagine that we will not continue being married after we leave this Earth. We do read in Gen. that it is not good for man to be alone. We see that God created woman from man (unless you read it, like I think Traveler does-as metaphorical). I haven't studied the verse but the verse about "being like the angels, not given or taken in marriage" seems to stick out to me. I also know that our focus is to be on God completely. THere is not much written about Heaven, and these are only speculations for now, we'll have to see. I am sure that I am committed to loving my wife and respecting her like I should while here on Earth. I also know that we are to love God a million times more than our family members in comparison. In the fall, I see Adam following Eve, in spite of God's direction. If there is no marriages, perhaps we will remain undivided toward God.

[a-train]

I know this Church is true.

On the first Sunday of each month, LDS congregations have a 'testimony meeting'. In this meeting, the general public (even those who aren't even members of the Church) are given the opportunity, even prompted, to speak a word to the congregation. The purpose therein is that each person may 'prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted' (1 Cor. 14:31), just the same as was practiced among the New Testament saints.

So what do the LDS believe to 'prophesy one by one' means? We define 'prophesy' as did the angel to John: 'the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.' (Rev. 19:10) So foretelling and prophecy are two very different things. A man who knows something about Jesus and shares it is prophesying. It matters not if the thing be past, present, or future, if it be any truth about Christ, it is prophecy. This is in contrast to the non-Biblical definition of prophecy which is merely to foretell some future event regardless of its relation to the Messiah.

Does this mean a non-LDS person can prophesy? YES! Can a non-LDS person be a prophet? YES! Anyone who has received knowledge of Christ by the Holy Ghost and shares it by the Holy Ghost is a prophet. Even a woman? YES! A child? YES! ALL.

So, in a testimony meeting, all may prophesy. All are prompted to share there own personal conviction and testimony of Jesus Christ, testimony about His pre-mortal work as Creator, His covenants with the ancient patriarchs, His dispensations to the ancients prophets, His works among the House of Israel on both sides of the globe, His birth, His ministry, His healings and blessings, His miraculous works, His raring of the Apostles, His crucifixion, His resurrection, His ascension, His postion at the right hand of the Father, His revelations to the early Apostles, his work among the nations of men throughout all time, His dispensation of the Gospel to Joseph Smith, His leadership and direction of the Church today, His work in our personal lives, His relationship to us, His eventual triumph over all wickedness, His Judgement of all mankind, His condensension and compassion, His eternal reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His Atonement. This is all prophesying. This is what should be spoken of in a testimony meeting.

I have heard vacation logs, family outing stories, love stories, sad tales, and much, much more in testimony meetings that seem to be far from any prophesying, stories that never seem to bring much edification of Christ. This is not meant to be, but you must understand that a great deal of the membership of the Church is not good at prophecy. Even members born into the Church struggle to perform well.

Direction has been offered time and time again from Church leadership regarding what is to be said in these meetings. Outlines about what is to be spoken of have been given, but Church leadership is ever careful to avoid presenting something that would become nothing more than a memorized text that would be repeated over and over. Still, the following has become typical:

'I'd like to bare my testimony. I know this Church is true. Jesus is the Christ. Joseph Smith is a prophet. I know God lives. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.'

This, or something like it, has become the most basic form of a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I know. It is very basic. It is very crude. However, the statements made are BIG statements of profound and momentous explication and implication.

'I know this Church is true.' is the whole matter in a nutshell. It means that Jesus is God, that He did, is doing, and will do the things I listed above. It means He spoke to the boy Joseph Smith and is leading the Church today. It means that those 19 year old boys knocking on doors have been sent by Jesus Himself and the message they share is not of man, but of Christ. It means that we are all living in a great time wherein the LORD's great latter-day work has commenced in gathering the house of Israel both spiritually and physically. It testifies that Jesus Christ leads this Church. That and that alone makes it 'true'. For without His direction, without His leadership, without Christ at the head, all the correct doctrine in the world cannot make an institution the 'true Church'.

There are certain, even members of the LDS Church, who will blush at the seeming ambiguity and crudeness of 'I know this Church is true'. There are some who would direct our attention from it's implications and say that it says little about Christ or God and places all emphasis on the powers of an organization of men. But be not deceived. Jesus is literally at the head of this Church, He literally spoke to Joseph Smith and all the leaders of the Church since. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true.

-a-train

[Guest Username-Removed]

Smylie,

I think you’ll find that the most powerful testimony that a member can have is to know that Christ lives. It’s certainly mine. While I don’t share it at the time at the drop of a hat, I do share it when prompted to. Yes I do know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The thing about having a testimony of Joseph Smith, you can also have a testimony that Jesus Christ Lives and that this is Jesus Christ’s church all at the same time. So, when you understand that, you’ll understand why people say what they do.

“Go thy way and sin no more” is one of Christ’s traits. Christ took a strong stand on sin, but he also forgave. Isn’t it nice that we can experience his forgiveness and allow change to take part in our lives so that we can become closer to him – which is exactly what Satan tries to stop: His goal is to draw us away from Christ with sin.

As far as “being with God” eternally, after our resurrection, in my opinion, you are saved at the level in which you are comfortable. A drug dealer’s heaven and my heaven are probably, thankfully different. To take this further, I can tell you that what I consider heaven might not be considered heaven by someone else. For me, I want someone that is committed to me, and I too should be committed to them. Not having that basic concept and firmly followed seems more like another place, not heaven.

Lastly, I would also like to add that we are not perfect. We are all struggling to become closer to Christ; we make mistakes when trying to do so. Its not merely the people in which you should look at. Firm knowledge that this is his church will ultimately come from him. I for one salute you in your pursuit of the truth.

[Traveler]

Smylie: You have hit on the single teaching of the restoration that I have personally struggled with more than all the other teaching combined. I am a 5th generation LDS Mormon and I just did not understand the “I know the church is true” declaration. I wondered how anyone could know such a thing.

For most of my life I decided that a “testimony” should be more a statement of “Faith” than a statement of knowledge. I have been careful to declare my faith rather than knowledge – is not Faith a greater thing than Knowledge? Is not Faith – not knowledge a “first” principle of the Gospel? Many times I was dissuaded from speaking my testimony because I felt I lived by faith and not by knowledge. But still I sought to have a knowledge.

What is a knowledge of anything? How can anyone know and declare kindness as good? How can anyone declare that bashing someone in the face with a baseball bat is evil or bad? At first it seemed to me that knowledge is most illusive and that to declare knowledge is just an overstatement of belief. Still I prayed for and sought a knowledge.

The truth is that only spiritual conformation is knowledge. We do know acts of evil from acts of good by knowledge. In fact knowledge must precede faith because without some knowledge we cannot “know” what it is for which we exercise faith. It is our intellectualizing that blurs knowledge and creates doubt of things we know by spiritual understanding and experience by faith to be true. If you do not have a spiritual conformation of a truth you will not increase in your knowing of it and even your beliefs will be confused – as will your basic knowledge from where you began your quest and understanding of truth. Many of us lie about our confusion (as I use to do) and pretend to know what we do not comprehend.

I would now say something about marriage in eternities, which is how G-d intended marriage. Like so many things marriage is not a pretending thing. We can pretend that we love someone with a “marriage” love – as though love is the only element. The love and promise of an eternal marriage is not what you start with it is what you create. Such a creation is not made by jumping into bed with someone and having the “night of your live”. Goodness – even homosexuals can do that. Eternal marriage is about sacrifice and creation of life and devotion to the sacred powers from which life springs – not about spilling your passions in quests for pleasures. Those that sacrifice themselves, their wants, needs and pleasures to the sacred powers of creation of life will find themselves and will become a manifestation of eternal marriage – but the temptation to do otherwise is the strongest of all temptations. We are what we spend ourselves in becoming and that is what is and will be eternal in all of us.

The Traveler

[kirtjk]

Hi. I'm new at this, so please excuse me as I learn the mechanics and protocol of posting.

Saying "I know the Church is true" is something I cannot take lightly, yet I personally have a hard time expanding on that simple affirmation. A long time ago, as I tried to share the gospel with certain highly educated Englishmen, and hearing their measured and polished declarations of agnosticism or atheism, I began to realize that I was way out of my league, intellectually. I think that the terminology of testimony is somewhat incompatible with that of logical, intellectual debate. I could say “I know,” but couldn't defend that assertion without talking about “feeling.” A feeling in the heart did not seem a reasonable rebuttal to cold logic. The golden threads of my personal testimony tapestry were difficult to discern or define unless I talked in terms of “feelings.”

Yet to talk of feelings, despite the disdain of the intellectuals, is valid nonetheless. A friend put it this way: Just as an electron microscope, as an instrument of investigation, can reveal and affirm the secrets of the living cell, so can your own soul, as an even finer instrument of investigation, respond to brushing contact with God in the whispering of the Holy Ghost to reveal and affirm that which no earthly instrument may detect. The natural man intuitively trusts the microscope, the work of his own hands, to show things truly, but to appreciate spiritual things, he must learn to have faith in the divinely designed instrument of his own being – to trust his own feelings and the golden threads of his life that are the stuff from which the fabric of testimony may be woven. (I love that tapestry analogy that Spencer W. Kimball gave us.)

Not having fine intellectual arguments or abilities with which to defend my testimony does not bother me. I don't have a problem reverting to the logically illegal position of "because of feelings I've had". I trust my soul as an instrument by which to perceive the imperceivable and say "I know".

[Outshined]

I know what you mean; say "I know that Christ lives" to some people, and they treat you with disdain. If it cannot be proven or fails to meet their standards of logic, then they think you are foolish to believe.

[roman]

As in any issue, it is always a wise road to take in that you explore both sides of the coin to get a true and accurate assesment of things. I think that in your exploration of the lds church, that it would be a good idea to interact with some of the peoples who have found that the lds church -------is NOT what it calims to be.

Then and only then make up your mind on the validity of the truth and the history of the church.

Remember the lds church practiced racism against blacks till 1978 by forbidding them certain postions, simply because of their skin color.

They also practiced polygamy till the goverment forced them to drop it. Lds claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, but do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?

Take a good long look at their history from both sides. Read the JoD for thier real beliefs and practices.

Yes on the outside the lds church is very attractive and looks good and does many many many wonderful things----------but it is a far cry from the NT church that Christ is actually building on this earth.

But--------------don't take my word on it, investigate it for yourself and by coming here and approching the subject as you have, you are well on your way.

As a side note, I have grown up around lds all my life---have family all around me that are lds--So I have seen all side of this issue. I was a drug addict for 17 years. when i got to the end of my rope I called upon Jesus and he came and set me free--------in just one moment. I was completly deliver and changed. Was my lds family happy for me----------NO the rejected me as I did not join the lds church. Oh I investigated and found my answer-------------- you will find your answer to and when you do, stick with it and give it all you got. r

Remember the Holy Spirit was given to lead you into ALL TRUTH and he won't dissapoint anyone searching in faith and honesty

[Outshined]

Remember the lds church practiced racism against blacks till 1978 by forbidding them certain postions, simply because of their skin color.

They also practiced polygamy till the goverment forced them to drop it. Lds claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, but do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?

According to the Bible, yes.

[Canuck Mormon]

There are times when I cringe when I hear "I know the church is true". In reality, it's not the church that is true, but the Gospel that is taught in church that is true. I try and not say "I know the church is true" but rather "I know The Gospel is true". I also try and work Jesus into my testimony whenever I can. Of course I would have to bare it more often than I do.

My 2 cents, for what they are worth.

[Outshined]

One thing that concerns me is that the couple of times I've visited the local ward, every speaker started out stating that they know the church is true. I heard alot about what role the church had played in their lives, and the importance of Joseph Smith, but very little, if anything, about Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit. It all seemed to be about the church itself, instead of a relationship and understanding of the ways of God and what he wants for/from us. Did I just attend on the wrong day?

You could say that. I understand that some people put a bit too much emphasis on JS's role. He was important to the Restoration, but he was only a prophet, like any other.

Surely my ward isn't that unusual; fast and testimony meeting always has plenty of mention of Christ, and almost no mention of Joseph Smith.

[roman]

<div class='quotemain'> Remember the lds church practiced racism against blacks till 1978 by forbidding them certain postions, simply because of their skin color.

They also practiced polygamy till the goverment forced them to drop it. Lds claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, but do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?

According to the Bible, yes.

Ah the typical lds spin- I would love to see you use the Bible to say------------UNTIL 1978 you may be racist, but then you must change after that -----------but lets not derail the thread and lets both help keep it on track---------someone here is seriously inquiring about the lds church

[Outshined]

I see you trying to derail a serious question with your same old lame attacks. You took that serious thread and launched into the same anti-LDS rant as always. Yawn...

Fact: Acts 20 tells us that Paul is given permission to share the Gospel with non-Jews; until then it was forbidden by God. "Racism?" Some could call it that, but it is how it was. Same with polygamy. Spin it all you want, but you're applying a double standard.

I might add your attack had nothing at all to do with the topic of the thread; it was just an opportunity for another cheap shot.

By all means, if you have something to add on the actual topic...

[CrimsonKairos]

roman, your point is useless. You're making a conclusion (the LDS Church is false) and then gathering evidence to support it (God wouldn't be "racist").

Try gathering evidence, and then drawing a conclusion.

If God indeed restored the gospel through Joseph Smith, and if Joseph Smith and the prophets who followed him enjoyed God's approval and guidance, then the manner in which they led the Church was approved by God even if we don't like it or can't understand it fully.

The best way to know whether God did restore the gospel in our day, the best way to know Joseph Smith was a prophet, is to read the Book of Mormon and pray about its teachings. Are they of God? Do they testify of Christ? Are they inspired by the Spirit of God?

To start out by saying, "God would never do such and such..." cuts off the spirit of revelation because you've stuck your metaphorical fingers in your inner ears and wouldn't hear the still, small voice even if it spoke to you of the truth of the LDS Church's teachings and authority.

[roman]

I see you trying to derail a serious question with your same old lame attacks. You took that serious thread and launched into the same anti-LDS rant as always. Yawn...

Fact: Acts 20 tells us that Peter is given permission to share the Gospel with non-Jews; until then it was forbidden by God. "Racism?" Some could call it that, but it is how it was. Same with polygamy. Spin it all you want, but you're applying a double standard.

I might add your attack had nothing at all to do with the topic of the thread; it was just an opportunity for another cheap shot.

By all means, if you have something to add on the actual topic...

Ya right! its you derailing the topic. acts 20 is not even appicable to the lds racism.That is sooooooooooooo far fetched its not worthy of any more comment. As to polygamy All I did was state a fact-----------the goverment forced lds church to drop it---talk about spin, your funny.

Also i had no attack and I didn't do what you said I did--I simply encouraged someone to look at all sides---and that makes you mad, but only after you had to make stuff up and add your spin to all of this----------------------That ought to be very very telling to someone investigating the lds church-----------you want more rope?

[CrimsonKairos]

roman, you made your point. Outshined made his. Let's not totally lose track of the original post's intent.

The other day or two I was feeling like crap, and I said some things in a thread which turned out to offend a few people and which I could have just refrained from typing.

I'd hate to see you make the same mistake here.

[Dr T]

Deep breaths, take some deep breaths...

[MaidservantX]

I think some times that for non members and some members alike, they have an imagination that "I know the Church is True" is only the first half of the sentence and that the second half goes some thing like: "and the rest of you are going to hell."

This 'second half of the sentence' of course is unwarranted by scriptures, doctrine and spirit. If I must ascribe it to anything it may be because Christianity through the dark ages and continuing to the present (and indeed some other world religions) have been sending people to hell (doctrinally speaking) for hundreds of years. It is assumed that Jesus Christ and his Church must share the same mindset -- I have never learned that He does.

The first truth that I hold on to is that I am a daughter of my heavenly Father. He knows me and he sent me here and he is aware of me at every moment of my life. He knows me by name. Everything else I could possibly learn, any other principle or rule I could possibly obey, pales in comparison to this foundation.

I go to my Father, in prayer. He invites me to enter, even expects me to have the privilege, of entering His presence every single day. I remember asking Him once why I had to be so far away from Him and the answer very simple and direct was: "You don't. Come to me now." With prayer, scripture, hymns, kindness, temple worship, enjoying creations (among other things) allows me to enter His presence.

I have received a knowledge of my heavenly Father's plan. I am weak with awe sometimes to think that I have the miracle and gift of the knowledge of His plan. So many in this mortal probation have not even had the opportunity to hear it.

I don't have a problem with saying or believing that the Church is true. In my opinion this is just as valid as saying the gospel is true. I understand what the Church is: it is literally the gathering of Israel. In the fulfillment of that purpose, nothing else is truer.

The Church is not separate from Jesus Christ. You can get rid of the word 'church' if you like. I often do as I understand the troubles semantics often make. This is the body that Jesus Christ literally and personally organized -- His Organization. You cannot get away from the truth (or not) that Jesus Christ personally re-established his church and all ancient covenants and restored the gospel (knowledge of His Father's plan), first through Joseph Smith (in this age) and that Jesus Christ continues to actively speak to and guide Gordon B. Hinckley. If this is not true, then the church is worthless and all that it is about it; I do not need a crutch, I do not need a kingdom of men to dictate morality to me.

But I do want to know my Father and His Son. The path begins and comes to a gate, and the gate is baptism and then the path continues eternally, and you could conceivably turn around and look back and see that little gate in your past (baptism) and you would smile fondly, but it's seed planted would have flowered into a tree that might have been inconceivable previously: some thing we give the general term: Eternal Life.

[Outshined]

roman, your point is useless. You're making a conclusion (the LDS Church is false) and then gathering evidence to support it (God wouldn't be "racist").

Try gathering evidence, and then drawing a conclusion.

If God indeed restored the gospel through Joseph Smith, and if Joseph Smith and the prophets who followed him enjoyed God's approval and guidance, then the manner in which they led the Church was approved by God even if we don't like it or can't understand it fully.

The best way to know whether God did restore the gospel in our day, the best way to know Joseph Smith was a prophet, is to read the Book of Mormon and pray about its teachings. Are they of God? Do they testify of Christ? Are they inspired by the Spirit of God?

To start out by saying, "God would never do such and such..." cuts off the spirit of revelation because you've stuck your metaphorical fingers in your inner ears and wouldn't hear the still, small voice even if it spoke to you of the truth of the LDS Church's teachings and authority.

Exactly. He asked a question and was not ready for the answers. It's not so easy to get arguments like that over on people who know better. Yes, God 'supported' both in the Bible, like it or not.

Now, to the topic being discussed: to say you know something is true can often fly in the face of logic. There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of God. I've seen some nasty confrontations because someone said they know that God is alive and Christ is the Savior. Others cannot tell you what is true, or give you a testimony of Christ. You have to gain that yourself.

By the way, awesome post, xhenli. B)

[roman]

roman, your point is useless. You're making a conclusion (the LDS Church is false) and then gathering evidence to support it (God wouldn't be "racist").

Try gathering evidence, and then drawing a conclusion.

If God indeed restored the gospel through Joseph Smith, and if Joseph Smith and the prophets who followed him enjoyed God's approval and guidance, then the manner in which they led the Church was approved by God even if we don't like it or can't understand it fully.

The best way to know whether God did restore the gospel in our day, the best way to know Joseph Smith was a prophet, is to read the Book of Mormon and pray about its teachings. Are they of God? Do they testify of Christ? Are they inspired by the Spirit of God?

To start out by saying, "God would never do such and such..." cuts off the spirit of revelation because you've stuck your metaphorical fingers in your inner ears and wouldn't hear the still, small voice even if it spoke to you of the truth of the LDS Church's teachings and authority.

Please oh please! You think you know something----like it happened like you say.

i did investagate the lds church for along time. read the BoM---JoD prayed like you woundn't believe Asked questions till i was blue in the face of my lds family members. had visists with the missionaries. So i did my time and a lengty investigation and came to my conclusion. I was being distanced by my family, after my deliverance and didn't want to lose them-------so I went to extra lengths to seek the truth. It was my families discusting reaction of-------------how dare you ask -------how dare you investigate that was the deal breaker for me------------and that The God that of my prayers and the God of the Bible were the same, but the god of the lds church and its writtings and members was different

I didn't start out like you say and nothing happened as you say------------I came to the conclusion of a long time of prayer and study and reflexion----that JS was a fraud and the lds church was wrong from the outset of the first vision and went downhill from there

[]

quote fro0m outshined

Exactly. He asked a question and was not ready for the answers. It's not so easy to get arguments like that over on people who know better. Yes, God 'supported' both in the Bible, like it or not.

Ah its good to end the day with a laugh--------------I never asked a question. -------still making stuff up.

i still don't understand what craweled up on you---------------getting mad over me telling someone to look at both sides-- and stating a few facts and some of my experience---------me thinks someone is not very secure in their faith, thats why such a reaction!

I still have NEVER seen a good lds explanation of multiple wifes under the New Covanant and still have NEVER seen a decient study on the exclusion of black from certain lds church things------------based only on skin color---------------I thought God was a respector of NO person -------oh well I go to bed shaking my head

[Traveler]

Oh my forum friends - Roman is an old long time anti-LDS troll and loves attention. If there is any kindness in him he will not cast that pearl without a barbed hook before LDS. Sadly, I have contributed to his bitterness.

The Traveler

[a-train]

Roman,

If the LORD has told you directly, by revelation, that you should not be in the LDS Church, then follow what the LORD has asked. I respect you in that and trust that He will lead you in righteousness and truth. If He told you that He did NOT speak to Joseph Smith, then believe it. Follow every word that you can in honesty and integrity say you have received from the LORD. I have no doubt that He will guide you well and you can trust Him.

As for me, I can say that He has told me that He did speak to Joseph Smith, that He does lead this Church, that the Book of Mormon IS true, and most importantly, that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, and He lives. I intend to follow that to the best of my ability and I allow you the same privilege.

I will make no assumption or supposition regarding how you came to your conclusions. I am no greater than you and I cannot attempt to read your thoughts or know your heart. Let me make no judgement against you or assume you have been deceptive or prideful in coming to your position or in making your assertions.

This is the sum and substance of 'I know this Church is true'. It is only my testimony. It is only what God has shown me. It is up to every man to obtain personal knowledge of God and follow it, I like the virgins who could not share their oil, cannot give you my personal witness.

I commend you in your own personal efforts. Please do not take any judgemental or presumptuous statements from members of the LDS Church as offensive, but forgive them and bless them, they need it. God speed in your endeavors to follow God.

GOD BLESS

-a-train