MrShorty Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I agree with many of the criticisms of the original drawing. Perhaps it is just timing, but I found it interesting that for FHE last night, my 9 YO asked to give the lesson based on something they got in primary Sunday. The kids had been given a sheet with similar circles to outline the plan of salvation: (see manual Primary 6: Old Testament Lesson 1: Heavenly Father’s Plan for Us)While the Primary version corrects some of the inaccuracies in the IRR's version, I was wondering how many of the criticisms we have discussed here would also apply to the official primary version published by the Church? For example, I felt like Christ was underrepresented in the Primary version.I know some would like to see all variations of this way of teaching about the plan of salvation go away. Until the correlation department updates manuals, I wonder if we as LDS are guilty of some of the same omissions as the IRR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Mr, Shorty,If you compare whatever chart you draw with Alma 12 a lot of confusion gets cleared up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Just the fact that the Primary version has Final Judgement shows Christ in the plan. He is the ultimate judge. And that is missing from the IRR version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Personally, I'd like to see a new chart come out that emphasizes what we are, rather than where we are, at the various stages of the Plan of Salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james12 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I agree with many of the criticisms of the original drawing. Perhaps it is just timing, but I found it interesting that for FHE last night, my 9 YO asked to give the lesson based on something they got in primary Sunday. The kids had been given a sheet with similar circles to outline the plan of salvation: (see manual Primary 6: Old Testament Lesson 1: Heavenly Father’s Plan for Us)While the Primary version corrects some of the inaccuracies in the IRR's version, I was wondering how many of the criticisms we have discussed here would also apply to the official primary version published by the Church? For example, I felt like Christ was underrepresented in the Primary version.I know some would like to see all variations of this way of teaching about the plan of salvation go away. Until the correlation department updates manuals, I wonder if we as LDS are guilty of some of the same omissions as the IRR?Yes, I do think Christ is unrepresented in the Primary version of the Chart. Of course any chart will be incomplete in some way. The gospel is so much about who we are internally. I think the Book of Mormon version is quite a bit different. It is something like this:Adam and the fall (separation from God) -> Probationary state -> Jesus Christ's coming -> Return to the presence of the Lord (redemption and resurrection) -> Judgement -> Happiness or miseryDescribing it in this way highlights our separation from God and our need to return back to him. Our current state where we are being tested. Christ's vital role in returning us to God. And how choices made here a now effect our eternal destiny. I think we shy away from this method of teaching the plan because we want to highlight what Joseph learned about the pre-earth life and the kingdoms of Glory. While this is good it may have led us away from what is vital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishcolleen Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) I found this chart to be interesting, but I'm not sure it is accurate. The guy who developed it says he is Mormon. Of course, just because he says he is a Mormon doesn't mean he is one who has complete understanding of LDS teachings. He has different charts based on who he is teaching. This one makes me dizzy.Links to other charts:Plan Of Salvation Charts By Cordell VailThe man's information and links to his testimony:Eugene Cordell Vail Sr. - LDS Church (Mormon) Handouts and Epistles to his family & friends Edited January 8, 2014 by Irishcolleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I found this chart to be interesting, but I'm not sure it is accurate. The guy who developed it says he is Mormon. Of course, just because he says he is a Mormon doesn't mean he is one who has complete understanding of LDS teachings. He has different charts based on who he is teaching. This one makes me dizzy.We have a term for this... Death By Powerpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james12 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yes, this new chart clears it all up for me. Intelligences, earth, the spirit world. I think it just needs a couple of more arrows and a few more circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishcolleen Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 We have a term for this... Death By Powerpoint.Powerpoint can be dangerous in the hands of some people. We were taught you should use no font smaller than 30 and no more than 10 words a slide. I would need a motion sickness patch to look at the chart for more than a few seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Powerpoint can be dangerous in the hands of some people. We were taught you should use no font smaller than 30 and no more than 10 words a slide. I would need a motion sickness patch to look at the chart for more than a few seconds.Yep. Good PowerPoint, and it does exist even if it can be rare in the wild, is simple, clean, and does not try to speak for the presenter but instead tries to clarify or enhance what the speaker is saying. In short, unless what you are trying to communicate is extremely simple it should never, ever, contain all the information you are trying to communicate. At least not on a single slide.Handouts can be more complex though (particularly if it being handed out as summary material), not sure if this level of complexity is good but they can certainly be more complex than PowerPoint slides, and if someone were to use this at Church chances are they'd be using it as a handout. Edited January 8, 2014 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrShorty Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 James123: I too have often remarked how scripture (in particular the BoM) teaches it a little differently: Usually start with Creation->Fall->Probationary State->Atonement->Redemption->Judgement->Salvation/Exaltation (or something along those lines). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 The complex chart has resurrection and judgement reversed, and of course, there are those who were translated, or resurrected at the time of Christ, and those that will be born during the millennium. Oh, and those who were born before Christ will not have the same spirit world, or temple work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Oh, and those who were born before Christ will not have the same spirit world, or temple work.Could you expand on that a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Could you expand on that a bit?From the diagram there is a box called "Temple work" and arrows from spirit paradise to spirit prison. Pre-Christ temples were not for work for the dead, and missionary work in the spirit world was not established. Christ established that between his death and resurrection, so the chart doesn't work pre 33AD.Also, I don't know that the 1/3 host of heaven (Satan and his followers) are in spirit prison, but perhaps in a different spiritual world where they have influence on Earth. but I don't think they share the same realm. Just as the pre-spirit world and post-spirit world are not the same place (even though some Mormon movies portrayed it that way). Edited January 9, 2014 by bytebear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classylady Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 The first thing I noticed with the power point chart that Irishcolleen posted was that the final judgement came after resurrection. Doesn't resurrection come before the final judgement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) The first thing I noticed with the power point chart that Irishcolleen posted was that the final judgement came after resurrection. Doesn't resurrection come before the final judgement?Apparently the creator of the chart received that question enough that he decided to put up an explanation for why he drew it that way: IS THE FINAL JUDGMENT BEFOREP.S. I am neither disagreeing or agreeing with his reasoning. Edited January 17, 2014 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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