a different chart

[applepansy]

I saw this on pinterest this morning. Is it more informative? accurate?

What are your thoughts?

[MarginOfError]

I think it makes some claims that aren't justified. For example, what is their basis for the claim that those who are baptized inherit the third degree of the celestial kingdom, or that those who are endowed inherit the second degree.

Some other quibbles:

this chart describes a causal relationship between baptism and celestial glory. Any apostasy leads straight to outer darkness (maybe that isn't quite the interpretation they had in mind, but that's what comes across to me). But I see no reason not to believe that those who are baptized and apostasize may inherit terrestial or telestial glory. Additionally, those who are baptized and are "not valiant" in their faith may inherit other glories. There should be sections of paths to all of the eternal endpoints that lead through the gate of baptism and repentance.

Which leads back to one of the major flaws I see in this. Resurrection and judgment are nowhere to be found on this. All paths should lead to Christ in judgment before any kingdom of glory is assigned. There is no path to eternal reward following mortality that doesn't go through Christ.

All-in-all, it's a decent overview, but in attempting to be too detailed, it fails to stand up to much scrutiny.

[pam]

I saw this on pinterest as well and took a look at it. If we are wanting to give an investigator an easy to read/follow/understand graphic of the plan of salvation, this one wouldn't be one I would use.

[Just_A_Guy]

I have some problems with it:

1) I've heard the three degrees of celestial kingdom = baptism/endowment/temple marriage before; but never from anyone authoritative. I reject the analogy.

2) Apostasy per se is not, as the chart suggests, a direct ticket to outer darkness.

3) Chart is a little too works-based for my liking.

[Swiper]

What are your thoughts?

It's an awful chart. It describes Mormons that doubts as being worse than serial killers, child molesters, wife beaters, and Adolf Hitler. The chart has one purpose and one purpose only: to make the church look like a cult.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Swiper

[MarginOfError]

It's an awful chart. It describes Mormons that doubts as being worse than serial killers, child molesters, wife beaters, and Adolf Hitler. The chart has one purpose and one purpose only: to make the church look like a cult.

I think that's a pretty cynical view of the intent of the chart. And bear in mind that I'm about as cynical of these things as people can get. But I'm inclined to think that the creator of this chart was trying to make a genuine effort illustrate the plan of salvation. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of manipulation or fear mongering.

[pam]

I had not noticed until Swiper pointed it out who this was made by. I am familiar with this group and they are not always very kind to LDS.

[Swiper]

I think that's a pretty cynical view of the intent of the chart. And bear in mind that I'm about as cynical of these things as people can get. But I'm inclined to think that the creator of this chart was trying to make a genuine effort illustrate the plan of salvation. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of manipulation or fear mongering.

Institute for Religious Research is not known for being friendly toward the LDS church. I would link to its pages on Mormonism, but I believe that I would break the TOS for this site if I did.

[Dravin]

I find myself agreeing with MoE and JAG.

• While D&C 76:31-37 certainly qualifies as apostasy not all apostasy qualifies. It's a case of all oranges are citrus but not all citrus are oranges.
  
• What we know concerning the celestial glory is that the new and everlasting covenant is required for exaltation and that baptism is required for the Celestial Kingdom. Unless I'm missing something the image is reaching beyond our (speaking collectively of the Church's) knowledge of the matter.
  
• Not only is the Judgement and Resurrection missing, where is Spirit Prison/Paradise?
  
• While the chart is probably trying to handle the aspect of faith in the path to the Celestial Kingdom with the pillars it is a little disconcerting to see faith in this little small text and then see something like the WoW writ large. I think: "Faith in Christ and Enduring to the End" would be a better text to put up there.
  

Edited January 6, 2014 by Dravin

[Swiper]

I had not noticed until Swiper pointed it out who this was made by. I am familiar with this group and they are not always very kind to LDS.

Well, to me "not always very kind" seems to be an understatement. I have gotten the impression that they are openly anti-Mormon (and anti-JW).

[pam]

Well, to me "not always very kind" seems to be an understatement. I have gotten the impression that they are openly anti-Mormon (and anti-JW).

I was giving the group benefit of the doubt on this one. While I see it as an attempt to explain how we, as LDS, view the Plan of Salvation, albeit a not totally informed attempt.

[NeuroTypical]

Seems to be missing something utterly critical - Christ. Remember Him? The way, the truth, and the light? Atonement? Discipleship? Saved by faith in the Savior?

Yeah, I think this is a pretty horrible chart.

[Guest]

Not only is it pretty horrible. It is wrong.

[applepansy]

I have some problems with it:

1) I've heard the three degrees of celestial kingdom = baptism/endowment/temple marriage before; but never from anyone authoritative. I reject the analogy.

2) Apostasy per se is not, as the chart suggests, a direct ticket to outer darkness.

3) Chart is a little too works-based for my liking.

That was one of my concerns also.

[applepansy]

I had not noticed until Swiper pointed it out who this was made by. I am familiar with this group and they are not always very kind to LDS.

Thanks. I didn't notice either. Which is one of the reasons I asked for thoughts on this. My brain doesn't work well anymore.

[applepansy]

Thank you everyone. Seems to be 10 truths to get us to believe one Lie.

Pam, maybe we should change the title of the thread?

[Vort]

It's the Plan of Salvation chart! Our eternal existence told in six brief circles!

What nonsense. I am disappointed but not surprised that an anti-Mormon group is at the base of it, though I could well believe a sincere and well-intentioned Saint could have come up with something very similar.

[pam]

Thank you everyone. Seems to be 10 truths to get us to believe one Lie.

Pam, maybe we should change the title of the thread?

What would you like to change it to?

[bytebear]

I do like the First Estate and Second Estate. I think we don't study that enough, and it's well documented in the Bible (for those who insist on such things). And I agree, you need to put the sacrifice of Christ in there, and the bridge representing grace perhaps. I do like the "strait gate" of baptism. I know the producers of the chart consider that a "work" but it's clearly a requirement for celestial glory. And the path should always be paved with faith in Christ and Repentance.

[applepansy]

What would you like to change it to?

not sure

AT the time I posted that yesterday I was thinking "10 truths 1 Lie: LOL

Maybe just leave it as is. The discussion is helpful for anyone looking. I just worry someone will see it and use it in Sunday School. LOL

[applepansy]

I do like the First Estate and Second Estate. I think we don't study that enough, and it's well documented in the Bible (for those who insist on such things). And I agree, you need to put the sacrifice of Christ in there, and the bridge representing grace perhaps. I do like the "strait gate" of baptism. I know the producers of the chart consider that a "work" but it's clearly a requirement for celestial glory. And the path should always be paved with faith in Christ and Repentance.

I saw things I liked too. I guess somebody handy with computer graphics who is LDS could come up with one. But... I guess in the meantime its best to use Church approved charts.

Justice posted several years ago about using the chart as we know it from Primary and the scriptures to fill it out more. Just the exercise itself was a learning experience and I learned more each time I did it. (three times total). I think if I started with this chart I would have lost the learning experience.

Here is the link to the thread Justice started. Plan of Salvation

Edited January 4, 2014 by applepansy

[Dravin]

I saw things I liked too. I guess somebody handy with computer graphics who is LDS could come up with one. But... I guess in the meantime its best to use Church approved charts.

I think every time I've 'bust out the circles' I've drawn it at that moment rather than using a prepared chart. Though I suppose in certain circumstances a prepared graphic is handy. One nice thing about drawing it by hand is that people can discuss it if they feel that something is being left out. For instance, if you'd been in a class and were sketching out the above one by hand we the class members could chime in with the objections and suggestions we did and it could have been resketched. It would have been a prime opportunity for us to discuss why we objected to specific aspects of the chart.

Obviously if you're teaching children or new investigators you want to be wary of using the technique of, "What's wrong with what I've drawn?" But it can be a great way to spark a discussion among those who tend to just think, "Plan of Salvation? I've got this, shutting brain down..."

Edited January 4, 2014 by Dravin

[Traveler]

I saw this on pinterest this morning. Is it more informative? accurate?

What are your thoughts?

I do not like the chart because it eliminates the importance of the “spirit world” following mortal death. In fact I believe that our probation in the spirit world may even be more important than the mortal probation of our earth life in realizing and taking advantage of G-d’s plan of salvation. However, I also believe that we ought to live in the now and as important as our past and future may be - we are best served with an enlightened understand of our here and now.

The Traveler

[slamjet]

I agree with all who have issues with the chart but I think there are two things that are glaringly missing; where is resurrection and judgment? I guess there's no need for those since it's all about works and grace need not get involved

And why is the Celestial dimmer than pre-earth life?

And why is pre-earth named "Realms of Diety?" Is this a Tolken novel?

And where is the post mortal spirit world?

And why is there a Temple? Is it because only Mormons will get there rather than those who belong to the Church of Christ (as I would suspect it would be called in the millennium, but that's a whole new thread).

And speaking of Christ, where is He and Heavenly Father? Oh, wait, works again, sorry

There's a lot lacking in this example. But it looks all pretty and colorful

[bytebear]

I didn't even notice they had removed the spirit world. That's a key in the plan, and it's clearly laid out in the Bible (probably why they wanted to avoid it).