Which Religions Produce More Successful People?

[dahlia]

Well, 'Tiger Mom' returns. Comments and rants welcome.

I can't speak for the other groups mentioned in the article, but amongst blacks, those from the Caribbean do better than native US blacks. I think that natives sit back and wait for things to be given to them, to make up for past discrimination. Caribbean immigrants come here and see wide open opportunities that they don't have in their home country. They know if they work hard, they can make something of themselves, and they don't have this historical baggage of native blacks.

Personally, I always called myself an 'education mama' after the Japanese moms who would even sit in on a class when their kids were sick (I don't think this would be allowed in US schools).

Which Religions Produce More Successful People? ‘Tiger Mom’ Is Back With a Theory | TheBlaze.com

[prisonchaplain]

I read the article and found the three ingredients for success rather disturbing:

1. Sense of group superiority (chosen people, manifest destiny, etc.)

2. Sense of individual inadequancy--I must strive to be worthy, because I don't think I am now...

3. Impulse control--denial of instant gratification for long term benefits

What I found disturbing is that, taken too far, success seems to come at the price of group humility, individual confidence, and the ability to sometimes 'live in the moment.'

Nevertheless, there is tension in life. Some stress is good. And, if modern western culture is lacking in any one of the above it is impulse control. So, while I remain somewhat cautious, I mostly agree with 'Tiger Mom.'

[Just_A_Guy]

Dahlia, don't be such a racist.

The specific factors Chua identifies are intriguing. Cultural Mormonism certainly does have an interesting tension between our belief in our collective superiority versus (in my experience) a pervasive belief in our own individual inadequacy.

[Dravin]

I can't speak for the other groups mentioned in the article, but amongst blacks, those from the Caribbean do better than native US blacks. I think that natives sit back and wait for things to be given to them, to make up for past discrimination. Caribbean immigrants come here and see wide open opportunities that they don't have in their home country. They know if they work hard, they can make something of themselves, and they don't have this historical baggage of native blacks.

In my experience you can see the same sort of thing with white native Americans and white immigrants. I can't really comment on relative prevalence though.

Dahlia, don't be such a racist.

The specific factors Chua identifies are intriguing. Cultural Mormonism certainly does have an interesting tension between our belief in our collective superiority versus (in my experience) a pervasive belief in our own individual inadequacy.

I'm just waiting for someone to take that statement out of context.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Dravin

[applepansy]

Interesting read.

I'm not sure I agree with all of it. But I do agree that impulse control plays a big role in success. Successful people are in control of themselves and their impulses.

Dravin, I'm sure someone has already taken it out of context and its trying to figure out how to verbalize their views. Maybe not here at LDS.net... or maybe yes here. :)

[pam]

And we never take anything out of context here at lds.net. :)

[Guest]

Is Tiger Mom LDS?

I kinda agree with the Triple Package but mainly, I believe there is only 1 not 3 things in the package for success - instilled intense desire to succeed and not settling for mediocre.

I see this difference in my extended family. Being all Filipinos and mostly Catholics, religion and racial differences can be set aside. And I can see the difference in how my father drove all of his kids to not settle for mediocre. If I come home with a test score of 99/100 he asks, why is it not 100? Seriously. I come home with 1/10 in first grade because I thought this > was less than and this < was greater than, so the only thing I got right was =. I tried to explain that I got a perfect score I just got the signs backwards and my dad said, well, it's not a perfect score, it's a 1/10 because I got the signs backwards and that in life, nobody will give me a pass for whatever excuse. So, I didn't get dinner.

Several of my aunts/uncles have different methods. One uncle was an important political figure. All his kids struggled because they were given everything growing up and left to their own devices. All of his kids got heavily into drugs. It wasn't until they were in their 20's that they finally realized their life is spiraling down to hell in a handbasket and they tried to correct it. Two of the kids eventually succeeded with a lot of help from extended family and 1 is still in bondage to drugs and struggling at middle-age.

This is a pattern that I see over and over in my family. And I can expand this to a macro level - with the last few generations of Americans growing up in privilege having a completely different outlook on life as the generations coming out of the revolutionary war, the civil war, and the great depression who were forced to strive to be cream of the crop rather than mediocre because opportunity is scarce.

Even Filipino immigrants show this formula - with the first few generation of immigrants having a completely different outlook on life as the later generations so much so that my cousins tell their kids to find a "real Filipino" to marry instead of these new-fangled Filipino-Americans.

Edited January 7, 2014 by anatess

[Irishcolleen]

I guess you have to decide what success is. For example, we have a "Tiger Mom" family in our church. The kids are very gifted academically and musically, but they lack empathy, social skills and tend to be selfish. We have another family in church who had three boys that barely got out of high school. One ended up in the military, two are in blue collar jobs. All three love their families, stayed at their father's side as he passed away and take good care of their mother. They would move mountains to help others.

I consider the the kids from the second family to be successful and the kids from the first family to be trained monkeys. I think we need to evaluate what success is. Is it academic and economic? Is it spiritual and emotional? In an ideal world I think it would be balanced.

[Just_A_Guy]

Is Tiger Mom LDS?

Chinese, I gather; and a convert to Catholicism.

[Guest]

I guess you have to decide what success is. For example, we have a "Tiger Mom" family in our church. The kids are very gifted academically and musically, but they lack empathy, social skills and tend to be selfish. We have another family in church who had three boys that barely got out of high school. One ended up in the military, two are in blue collar jobs. All three love their families, stayed at their father's side as he passed away and take good care of their mother. They would move mountains to help others.

I consider the the kids from the second family to be successful and the kids from the first family to be trained monkeys. I think we need to evaluate what success is. Is it academic and economic? Is it spiritual and emotional? In an ideal world I think it would be balanced.

The Tiger Mom Study itself provides the criteria for success in specific measures stated in the article as: "That certain groups do much better in America than others — as measured by income, occupational status, test scores and so on”

I can't find info on what comprises "and so on"...

But, going by what I use to measure success - it's basically achieving our goals in life - financially, academically, emotionally and spiritually overall. I don't think that there is anybody who strives to live at poverty level. I also don't think that there is anybody who strives to fail in school. I also don't think that there is anybody who consciously strives to be morally corrupt. Yes, I do understand "morally sound" holds different meaning to different people, but basic goodness is generally desired regardless of religious orientation... law abiding people are generally good, criminals and felons, not. Emotional is generally a by-product of an individual's idea of his self-worth which goes with how close he is to achieving his goals in life.

Not everybody strives to be Bill Gates. Some simply strive to be a good fisherman. But a fisherman, no matter how humble, wouldn't consider himself successful if he can't feed his family 3x a day. At the same time, Bill Gates making 5 billion dollars being unhappy because his goal was 50 billion can be generally dumped into the successful side regardless of his emotional state just for the purpose of generalization.

That's how I see it, at least.

[Irenaeus]

I would agree with the article in saying that the traits cited in the article likely to contribute to one's success as defined by the article. That being said, it should be noted that the article defines success in a very secular way. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think most people on these forums would agree that there's a sort of spiritual success that is of far greater importance. If, for example, Mormonism were shown to produce people who ended up in lower paying jobs, that statistic wouldn't necessarily bother me if I was confident that membership also had a higher rate of salvation. The trade off would be an infinitely favorable one.

That being said, it is still an interesting read. On a practical level, I can't help but wonder how difficult it is to hold personal insecurities and group superiority in the proper balance necessary to prevent one from overshadowing the other. It would seem that excessive pride and self-loathing could both easily emerge, which would certainly hinder one's ability to succeed.

[dahlia]

I read the article and found the three ingredients for success rather disturbing:

1. Sense of group superiority (chosen people, manifest destiny, etc.)

2. Sense of individual inadequancy--I must strive to be worthy, because I don't think I am now...

3. Impulse control--denial of instant gratification for long term benefits

1. Sense of superiority - well, Mormons do believe they are the only true church. Jews believe they are the chosen people. I see where you're coming from, but taken as a group feature, I don't have a big problem with it.

2. individual inadequacy - you haven't been to a Relief Society meeting, have you? All the women in my RS ever do is talk about how inadequate they are.

3. impulse control - this is important. It is an element of maturity. It is what, very often, separates the poor from those who are not poor. Denying oneself for a long term benefit is an essential part of parenthood. Off the top of my head, I think impulse control and charity are more important than anything else.

[Wormwood]

Hands down, Jewish are the most successful financially even not believing in Christ. Jews believe in God. Then, Messianic Jews that believe in both God and Christ. Because religion teaches good principles and promotes good behavior - (when not taken to extremes) - most religious people that apply themselves, study hard and behave correctly in society will tend to achieve a high level of worldly, monetary success.

The other aspect of it is parents teaching kids how to become successful in business. Asians also have good work ethic and don't go into debt and value education. They also have good brains for the sciences.

Also successful are Arabs, Lebanese, Iranians, Armenians and persians in general. Many Mormons are included in the ladder of financial success and many keep things private so you don't know that they are really loaded with money.

[Leah]

Hands down, Jewish are the most successful financially even not believing in Christ. Jews believe in God. Then, Messianic Jews that believe in both God and Christ. Because religion teaches good principles and promotes good behavior - (when not taken to extremes) - most religious people that apply themselves, study hard and behave correctly in society will tend to achieve a high level of worldly, monetary success.

The other aspect of it is parents teaching kids how to become successful in business. Asians also have good work ethic and don't go into debt and value education. They also have good brains for the sciences.

Also successful are Arabs, Lebanese, Iranians, Armenians and persians in general. Many Mormons are included in the ladder of financial success and many keep things private so you don't know that they are really loaded with money.

Sources, please.

[Irenaeus]

Hands down, Jewish are the most successful financially even not believing in Christ. Jews believe in God. Then, Messianic Jews that believe in both God and Christ. Because religion teaches good principles and promotes good behavior - (when not taken to extremes) - most religious people that apply themselves, study hard and behave correctly in society will tend to achieve a high level of worldly, monetary success.

The other aspect of it is parents teaching kids how to become successful in business. Asians also have good work ethic and don't go into debt and value education. They also have good brains for the sciences.

Also successful are Arabs, Lebanese, Iranians, Armenians and persians in general. Many Mormons are included in the ladder of financial success and many keep things private so you don't know that they are really loaded with money.

Up through the beginning of the industrial revolution, the Catholic Church (which until the reformation encompassed most European Christians) had strict rules against usury which forbid Christians from making loans and charging interest to other Christians (See the encyclical Vix Pervenit promulgated by Benedict XIV in 1745). Jews had similar rules regarding lending to other Jews, but were free to lend to Christians, which proved to be financially beneficial to them. In other words, stereotypes surrounding Jews and financial success have less to do with anything particular to Judaism and more to do with the circumstances which surrounded them historically.

As for the other groups mentioned, I'm not sure I've seen any correlation between them and financial success. Armenians are often regarded with about the same regard in Europe as Mexicans are in America, which isn't exactly a stereotype of success. The Middle Eastern nationalities you mentioned are sometimes associated with oil, which itself is a profitable business, but the nations and vast majority of the populace of those nations tend to be more impoverished.

I do think trying to correlate people being financially successful and morally good is something of a hazardous route to take. If I recall, Jesus mentioned that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm certainly not trying to imply here that rich people can't get into heaven, but I am saying that they certainly aren't all morally good.

[dahlia]

Also successful are Arabs, Lebanese, Iranians, Armenians and persians in general.

Maybe they are successful immigrants in America, but they do not come from 'successful' countries. There are no internationally great universities in these areas. I mean top-rated research universities that produce medical, scientific, and technical discoveries hailed the world over. In my field, I see very little work from Arab countries, and what I do see is weak.

I make no claim re any group about worldly success and being morally good.

Wait, actually, I've yet to meet a Buddhist Thai who was not a friendly, giving, kind, nice person. Personal experience, but I've met quite a few of them. I would not say they were all financially successful, though.

[Traveler]

Maybe they are successful immigrants in America, but they do not come from 'successful' countries. There are no internationally great universities in these areas. I mean top-rated research universities that produce medical, scientific, and technical discoveries hailed the world over. In my field, I see very little work from Arab countries, and what I do see is weak.

I make no claim re any group about worldly success and being morally good.

Wait, actually, I've yet to meet a Buddhist Thai who was not a friendly, giving, kind, nice person. Personal experience, but I've met quite a few of them. I would not say they were all financially successful, though.

Interesting - especially concerning your Buddhist friends. If it were not for "Mormonism" I would most likely be a Buddhist. It is the only religion that I have found that during the years of its early expansion, that though it was met with cultures of war and great difficulty and suffering, was able to bring about peace and prosperity.

There is no question in my mind; that traditional Buddhists are without question and by historical example; more Christ like than traditional Christians.

The Traveler