Transactional prayer

[tovarisch]

I looked for another thread on this topic, but I couldn't find one. If I missed it, apologies.

A couple weeks ago in sacrament meeting, a member spoke about how paying a tithe on contingent income resulted in the income materializing; the couples' faith resulted in a blessing from God. After church, my fiancée* told me that she didn't like the testimony at all because she felt it was transaction. That is, if we act a certain way, God will reward us in a specific way: investment leads to profit. She prefers the view that God loves everyone equally.

On the one hand, I see what she means. The idea that a specific action we take makes God respond in a certain way makes God seem like an ethereal bookkeeper and not God. On the other hand, scriptures seem pretty clear that following ordinances and rules means that God may answer our prayers in a literal, meaningful, sense that He may change circumstances (1 Nephi 17:35 "he that is righteous is favored by The Lord" or D&C 29:6 "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.")

So my question for you all is pretty simple: How do I reconcile these two things? Are we simply wrong on the first, or is there more to prayer and asking God's favor that I just don't realize? I'd like to assure my fiancée that prayer isn't simply transactional, but I fear that that may actually be the proper view.

Related to this is volume of prayer. I very much dislike that idea that a famous person receiving thousands of prayers will be healed because of that volume whereas a poor, unknown person will not be healed because she only received five prayers.

I myself am stumped. I don't want to believe that volume of prayers would result in a change that a smaller number would, but it seems likely that being obedient and faithful means that God may bless us with material blessings.

Having said that, in my own prayers the only time I feel warm and that my prayers are good is when I am saying thanks for everything in my life. I tend not to ask for much other than for a testimony whether the Book of Mormon and Church are true.

-----

*You may recall that we have not yet been baptized. We have a ward calling but are still pondering.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon tovarisch. I hope you've been well! :)

Faith is the key here. It is through faith that we are able to draw the powers of heaven in to our life. We reach through the veil with our faith and bring heaven's power to earth. There is no other principle by which God's power or His blessings are manifested.

Moroni said:

21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.

God teaches us:

" 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

Faith is tied to obedience and obedience is tied to faith.

God wants us to ask of Him for blessings. We must first sort out what to ask. We learn what to ask for when we learn the doctrine and obey the doctrine. Our confidence in God and our confidence to ask God for blessings increases in relation to how well we are following the Savior in our every day lives.

-Finrock

[Vort]

I tend to agree with your fiancée. I like to think I pay my tithing because it's God's money, not mine; because I love God and want to obey him; and because it's my duty.

But that is less than half the story. If I am being honest, I must confess that I feel like I have been taken care of by the Lord, which I attribute in part to my covenant-keeping by paying my tithing. I do not live a rich lifestyle by American standards; nowhere near. We brought up (and are bringing up) a family of seven in a 1700-square-foot house and feel greatly blessed for that, despite the fact that our extended family members and friends often live in much larger houses with fewer people (and sometimes whine about how crowded they feel). I have experienced many periods of unemployment, ranging in length from days to months. Yet despite my unpredictable and somewhat limited income (and the fact that we are a single-income household), we have managed to keep up our mortgage payments. We have never gone without necessities.

In an attempt to explain my feelings, let me tell you a story. There was a recent period two or three years ago when things were bleak indeed. Financially, it was probably worse than it ever had been in our married lives, and that's saying something. As an almost-last resort, I went to my bishop to ask if there was any help available. I was humiliated, more than I can describe. But this good man said, "Brother, you are a faithful, tithe-paying member of our ward. You try to help out as you can. You are a brother. You love this ward, and this ward loves you. If I were to ask the ward members what they thought about helping your family, I bet every one of them would be in favor of it. Let me help your family." I was touched, almost to tears, and deeply humbled. Before that point, I had always taken a sort of secret pride in the idea that, in over 20 years of marriage, we had always tithed and always tried to give a generous fast offering, but had never received Church assistance, even when things were very rough. That experience sort of shifted my perception. Not sure how to explain it, but I was almost glad -- almost -- that I had to ask for that help. I felt further bound to my brothers and sisters.

What has this to do with tithing? Not sure. In my mind, these issues are not separable. (Though tithing is not used for Church assistance -- I believe that's all local fast offerings). When we concentrate on building the kingdom and doing right before God and quit worrying about whether we're getting all the money we think is our due (or figuring out how to cut our tithing donations to a bare minimum), I think we get closer to what God wants for us. I suppose that's my point.

[Just_A_Guy]

To add to the mix, Mosiah 2:24:

24 And . . . he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

I read that as: Yes, we do get back what we put in--and more--without fail. On the other hand, we'd better view that with a sense of gratitude and humility, not expectation or entitlement. Devotional acts done without real intent, in the long run, ultimately avail us nothing (see Moroni 7:9).

[Seminarysnoozer]

I looked for another thread on this topic, but I couldn't find one. If I missed it, apologies.

A couple weeks ago in sacrament meeting, a member spoke about how paying a tithe on contingent income resulted in the income materializing; the couples' faith resulted in a blessing from God. After church, my fiancée* told me that she didn't like the testimony at all because she felt it was transaction. That is, if we act a certain way, God will reward us in a specific way: investment leads to profit. She prefers the view that God loves everyone equally.

On the one hand, I see what she means. The idea that a specific action we take makes God respond in a certain way makes God seem like an ethereal bookkeeper and not God. On the other hand, scriptures seem pretty clear that following ordinances and rules means that God may answer our prayers in a literal, meaningful, sense that He may change circumstances (1 Nephi 17:35 "he that is righteous is favored by The Lord" or D&C 29:6 "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.")

So my question for you all is pretty simple: How do I reconcile these two things? Are we simply wrong on the first, or is there more to prayer and asking God's favor that I just don't realize? I'd like to assure my fiancée that prayer isn't simply transactional, but I fear that that may actually be the proper view.

Related to this is volume of prayer. I very much dislike that idea that a famous person receiving thousands of prayers will be healed because of that volume whereas a poor, unknown person will not be healed because she only received five prayers.

I myself am stumped. I don't want to believe that volume of prayers would result in a change that a smaller number would, but it seems likely that being obedient and faithful means that God may bless us with material blessings.

Having said that, in my own prayers the only time I feel warm and that my prayers are good is when I am saying thanks for everything in my life. I tend not to ask for much other than for a testimony whether the Book of Mormon and Church are true.

-----

*You may recall that we have not yet been baptized. We have a ward calling but are still pondering.

How we do something is just as important, if not more so, than just doing it.

D&C 58; " 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned."

The person who does it with a "doubtful heart" still keeps the commandment but "the same is damned." Obeying the commandment of tithing with a hopeful heart certainly is not "doubtful".

[The Folk Prophet]

I looked for another thread on this topic, but I couldn't find one. If I missed it, apologies.

A couple weeks ago in sacrament meeting, a member spoke about how paying a tithe on contingent income resulted in the income materializing; the couples' faith resulted in a blessing from God. After church, my fiancée* told me that she didn't like the testimony at all because she felt it was transaction. That is, if we act a certain way, God will reward us in a specific way: investment leads to profit. She prefers the view that God loves everyone equally.

The teaching by the member is a bit of a false understanding of contingent blessings. People love to talk about things like tithing in these terms, but it's invalid. Pay tithing=get more money is not promised by the Lord anywhere.

On the one hand, I see what she means. The idea that a specific action we take makes God respond in a certain way makes God seem like an ethereal bookkeeper and not God.

God responds on His own terms and according to His own will. The only situation wherein the above is true is in relation to covenants, wherein the Lord literally promises us something based on our actions.

On the other hand, scriptures seem pretty clear that following ordinances and rules means that God may answer our prayers in a literal, meaningful, sense that He may change circumstances (1 Nephi 17:35 "he that is righteous is favored by The Lord" or D&C 29:6 "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.")

The "according to my command" part of this is pretty important. Whatever we ask "that is right" He will grant. And what is right? That which is God's will.

So my question for you all is pretty simple: How do I reconcile these two things? Are we simply wrong on the first, or is there more to prayer and asking God's favor that I just don't realize? I'd like to assure my fiancée that prayer isn't simply transactional, but I fear that that may actually be the proper view.

Prayer is transactional from a certain point of view, though putting it into a term like that is unnecessarily degrading to it. God is our Father. He loves us. But He also means what He says. And He has set forth conditions and promises. So back to tithing. What have we actually been promised? That he will open up the windows of Heaven and pour us out a blessing so large that we can hardly receive it. And He will do this if we pay our tithing because He said He will.

That doesn't mean He won't bless us otherwise. All of us our blessed in ways we don't deserve. God loves us and shares blessings freely. (He also tries us freely). But He has promised us greater blessings for obedience. But the nature of those blessings are His to give. If we take His name upon us, always remember Him, and keep His commandments, for example, He has promised us His Spirit. Call it transactional if you will. But that is His promise to us.

Related to this is volume of prayer. I very much dislike that idea that a famous person receiving thousands of prayers will be healed because of that volume whereas a poor, unknown person will not be healed because she only received five prayers.

I myself am stumped. I don't want to believe that volume of prayers would result in a change that a smaller number would, but it seems likely that being obedient and faithful means that God may bless us with material blessings.

Prayer is for us, not for God. He doesn't need our prayers, we need them. Praying, whether individually or as a large group, is meaningful only to us and our faith and our growth and our relationship with God. The Lord will do what the Lord will do.

God may well bless us with material blessing for obedience, or He may not. But he WILL bless us for it. That, He has promised.

Having said that, in my own prayers the only time I feel warm and that my prayers are good is when I am saying thanks for everything in my life. I tend not to ask for much other than for a testimony whether the Book of Mormon and Church are true.

God has commanded us to ask for blessings, so I wouldn't be afraid of that. Ask in Humility and with an absolute "Thy will be done" attitude. But we should ask. That being said, your thankful point of view is wonderful and appropriate. Never let go of that!

*You may recall that we have not yet been baptized. We have a ward calling but are still pondering.

Keep up the sincere pondering! These sorts of questions are great to ask. Stay humble and listen to the Holy Spirit when it testifies of truth. It will guide you right. :)

[tovarisch]

Thank you all for your responses, especially Vort. That sense of community that you describe is one of the main reasons that we are drawn to the church. We know that member so of the church care for one another as family. I am sure there are exceptions to this, but I have seen this with my own eyes. We look forward to this part of the church very much.

Church, I am on my ipad so it's hard to quote you, but I have a couple follow-up comments.

In my head, I separate spiritual blessings from material blessings. If I pray regularly, read scriptures, attend sacrament meeting, and eventually get baptized and sealed, I know I will have spiritual blessings, up to and including the blessings of the Holy Spirit in my life and marriage. This won't make sense, but that does not seem transactional to me. This seems like theosis, becoming more like God (or the Savior).

What I meant by transaction was a literal, material sense of "If I do X, then God will give me Y." I am far more comfortable tithing knowing that it results in spiritual benefits (growing closer to God) than the thought that I'll receive a bonus or pay rise.

One related area I struggle with is priesthood blessings for healing. Obviously the original apostles called on the name of God to heal and do marvelous acts. How do you reconcile prayers for our sake with healing in the name of Jesus Christ?

[Dravin]

The teaching by the member is a bit of a false understanding of contingent blessings. People love to talk about things like tithing in these terms, but it's invalid. Pay tithing=get more money is not promised by the Lord anywhere.

Indeed, we're promised blessings for paying tithing (3 Ne 24:10) but it isn't specified that those blessings will take the form of "get more money". Could those blessings take that form? Sure. Are they promised to take that form? No.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Dravin

[Finrock]

I have posted this before, I believe, in another thread long forgotten. However, I think it is somewhat relevant here too. I thought about this because of what Just_A_Guy had posted.

When I think of receiving blessings I also remember this: I don't deserve anything from Father. If I receive any good thing it is because it is a gift from God because of His mercy. I don't deserve any degree of God's glory. If Father desires that I be equal with Him and He is powerful enough to make this come to pass, then I ought to receive this gift with gratitude because everything else that I have is a gift. In my view it is prideful to receive other gifts from the Father yet deny the greatest gift, as if I was ever worthy of any of it! Everything I have is because of Him and my bowels should be filled with gratitude towards God forever.

But can you see how at the same time God is dependent upon us in receiving His gifts? God's work and His glory is bringing about the condition of eternal life for His children. His glory depends upon His children receiving eternal lives. In my view this interdependence of the father(s) to the son(s) and the son(s) to the father(s) is clearly taught in scripture and the words of modern day apostles. Hence when we receive the greatest gift from God we can be equal with God and still be dependent upon Him. We will only be emulating His relationship with us. We are interdependent upon each other. We cannot be saved alone and God cannot have glory alone.

-Finrock

[Guest]

Blessings I believe we've received from paying tithing:

*Increased faith

*Strength to endure

*Never going without our basic needs, even during some scary stretches of unemployment

*Good health

*Protection from injury

I admit to paying tithing out of fear before. I hope I'm now playing totally out of gratitude, love, and mostly obedience.

[The Folk Prophet]

Church, I am on my ipad so it's hard to quote you, but I have a couple follow-up comments.

In my head, I separate spiritual blessings from material blessings. If I pray regularly, read scriptures, attend sacrament meeting, and eventually get baptized and sealed, I know I will have spiritual blessings, up to and including the blessings of the Holy Spirit in my life and marriage. This won't make sense, but that does not seem transactional to me. This seems like theosis, becoming more like God (or the Savior).

What I meant by transaction was a literal, material sense of "If I do X, then God will give me Y." I am far more comfortable tithing knowing that it results in spiritual benefits (growing closer to God) than the thought that I'll receive a bonus or pay rise.

One related area I struggle with is priesthood blessings for healing. Obviously the original apostles called on the name of God to heal and do marvelous acts. How do you reconcile prayers for our sake with healing in the name of Jesus Christ?

You're actually pretty close to spot on, in my opinion. Just not 100%. But I certainly understand the reservations you have for physical blessings in reward for good behavior. At a black-and-white level it really doesn't work does it? Life, as in our mortal physical existence, is not fair. It just isn't. And good people get hurt and bad people get rich, etc., etc., etc...

There is not a literal, material X for Y transactional agreement with the Lord, except, perhaps, in specific instances where the Lord says directly to someone, "Go and do this and I will do this." There are certainly cases of this. One example that comes to mind is Nephi in the Book of Mormon, who is promised by the Lord that he will have Laban delivered into his hands from his obedience. I'm certain there are other examples one could find. But beyond those specific instances, I agree with you, and think that anyone, including those who spoke in the meeting you heard on tithing, will come to learn that it just doesn't work that way.

That being said, there are general promises of general physical well being in response to obedience. General health to the church for keeping the word of wisdom. General financial well being to the church for obeying the law of tithing. Etc., etc... But to claim that if you keep the word of wisdom you'll never get sick would be silly.

Your priesthood question is a good one, and one that a lot of people do not really understand about the priesthood. In point of fact, one does not need the priesthood to heal. This is not the function of the priesthood. Miracles come by faith. This is scriptural.

Priesthood blessings are a way for those who belong to that priesthood to serve and to pass on the power of God with blessings of faith. Do they sometimes show results where the lack of priesthood does not? Yes. Why? Because it shows authority, which is important to God. No man may take that authority upon himself (Hebrews 5:4). But any man (or woman) may show faith and see miracles accordingly.

In other words, healing is a sign of the priesthood, rather than the other way around. It shows who has authority and indicates who is the true followers of Christ. But that does not mean healing or other miracles are exclusive to the priesthood, and mistaking the power of God to only mean miracles and to only associate it with the priesthood is false thinking.

edit: I wanted to add, to know of the priesthood and the power and authority it has to heal, and then to decline or turn away from it, however, would be a lack of faith, and in that case might directly result in failure.

Edited January 19, 2014 by church

[Blackmarch]

I looked for another thread on this topic, but I couldn't find one. If I missed it, apologies.

A couple weeks ago in sacrament meeting, a member spoke about how paying a tithe on contingent income resulted in the income materializing; the couples' faith resulted in a blessing from God. After church, my fiancée* told me that she didn't like the testimony at all because she felt it was transaction. That is, if we act a certain way, God will reward us in a specific way: investment leads to profit. She prefers the view that God loves everyone equally.

On the one hand, I see what she means. The idea that a specific action we take makes God respond in a certain way makes God seem like an ethereal bookkeeper and not God. On the other hand, scriptures seem pretty clear that following ordinances and rules means that God may answer our prayers in a literal, meaningful, sense that He may change circumstances (1 Nephi 17:35 "he that is righteous is favored by The Lord" or D&C 29:6 "Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.")

So my question for you all is pretty simple: How do I reconcile these two things? Are we simply wrong on the first, or is there more to prayer and asking God's favor that I just don't realize? I'd like to assure my fiancée that prayer isn't simply transactional, but I fear that that may actually be the proper view.

Related to this is volume of prayer. I very much dislike that idea that a famous person receiving thousands of prayers will be healed because of that volume whereas a poor, unknown person will not be healed because she only received five prayers.

I myself am stumped. I don't want to believe that volume of prayers would result in a change that a smaller number would, but it seems likely that being obedient and faithful means that God may bless us with material blessings.

Having said that, in my own prayers the only time I feel warm and that my prayers are good is when I am saying thanks for everything in my life. I tend not to ask for much other than for a testimony whether the Book of Mormon and Church are true.

-----

*You may recall that we have not yet been baptized. We have a ward calling but are still pondering.

Part of your post brought this to my mind, perhaps it will help you;

Matthew chapter 20;

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

When a person begins to walk the path that God would have them do, sooner or later one has to start interacting with God, Some things God gives because he loves, others he holds in reserve till we ask for them, and even others he Holds till a person has done all they can do. he does so both because he is Just and is bound by his promises, and two he wants us to grow. This will always look like a transaction (altho I suppose that even accepting God's grace could be considered a transaction)

As for numbers I have no idea what measure God uses for when he decides that it makes a difference or not, I figure if you can get more to pray for some thing it will be better both in that you have more asking for it, and also you've helped more people humble them selves at least that much to do so.