baptism & the imperfect

[dahlia]

When I contemplated baptism, many people on this board told me I didn't have to be perfect, I didn't have to know all of the Church history & theology to be baptized. OK.

Can someone be baptized if they still drink alcohol (or smoke, for that matter)l? Obviously they wouldn't be temple worthy, but could they be baptized with the goal of working on the behavior or does the behavior have to be stopped before baptism? They aren't perfect and since you can be baptized without being perfect, I was just wondering...

You can't tell me that some people don't still smoke after baptism; it's one of the hardest addictions to quit. I'm sure some people try with the best intentions, but look up 6 months later and have a smoke or a drink. Would they have to go to the bishop?

I wonder if it would be better to let them be baptized and have the arms of the Church around them as they struggled to end these behaviors, as opposed to not allowing baptism and maybe have them stop investigating or attending church altogether.

[Vort]

I have heard compelling stories of those baptized with such challenges still unresolved but who, through perseverence and the gift of the Holy Ghost, conquered their addictions. So in principle, I see nothing wrong with it. However, current practice is that such overt habits must be overcome before baptism. Exceptions may be made on occasion, I don't know.

[skippy740]

There's usually a period of time that must pass that they've abstained from the substance before one can be baptized. In my mission, it was a week.

Yes, people do pick up old habits again. Do they need to see the Bishop? Yes, I think they should.

But once they're a member, they should be assigned faithful home & visiting teachers to help keep in touch, be a support, and help nurture with the good word of God.

[tubaloth]

You don't need to be perfect, but you do need to show Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ that you are willing to make a covenant with them. That does require some things. If you are living with some of the opposite sex, then you have to split up (move out) or get married. If you are drinking you have done what you can to quick drinking, same with smoking.

Really we go through the repentance process. (which means we are changing). Once we reach that point we have repenteded of passed sins we make the Covenant with Heavenly Father.

But we aren't perfect, but we are trying to be.

[The Folk Prophet]

I would also content that being baptized is not required to "have the arms of the Church around them". I would certainly hope not.

[notquiteperfect]

Some good insights already and will add that since baptism is a remission of your sins, I'd want to do everything I could to make that last as long as possible. I'd also want it to signal a new beginning and if I still had issues to resolve, it wouldn't feel like it was.

[The Folk Prophet]

Some good insights already and will add that since baptism is a remission of your sins, I'd want to do everything I could to make that last as long as possible. I'd also want it to signal a new beginning and if I still had issues to resolve, it wouldn't feel like it was.

I think it can be taken further. Part of the baptismal covenant is that we relinquish our sins. Clearly, we will sin again and need repentance. But to go into baptism knowing full-well that one plans to continue a specific sin makes a bit of a mockery of that covenant.

[dahlia]

I would also content that being baptized is not required to "have the arms of the Church around them". I would certainly hope not.

I would hope so too, but why keep going to church if you couldn't be a real member?

I like the idea posted above that maybe you only need to abstain for a week. It would be hard for a smoker, but maybe not so hard for a social drinker. At least you have given abstention a try, and maybe making the covenants at baptism would help you stay away from drink or smoking.

I notice that our ward has a stop smoking clinic - would that be offered only to investigators or to anyone in the area? Or would there be so many members who slip up, that they have to have such a program? I guess I could ask...but maybe every ward has them?

[skippy740]

Many missionaries have their own "stop smoking" path... generally involving grapefruit juice and cinnamon mouthwash... to help 'interrupt' the old habits that may trigger a craving.

I used it while serving, and I think it fulfilled its purpose - helped the investigator abstain for the required period. However, I won't tell you that it fixed everything for good.

If your ward is offering something, it wouldn't hurt to check it out.

Remember, if the Church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum of saints... then our chapels should smell more like tobacco... because we'd be doing a better job. :)

[Lakumi]

You don't need to be perfect, but you do need to show Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ that you are willing to make a covenant with them. That does require some things. If you are living with some of the opposite sex, then you have to split up (move out) or get married. If you are drinking you have done what you can to quick drinking, same with smoking.

Really we go through the repentance process. (which means we are changing). Once we reach that point we have repenteded of passed sins we make the Covenant with Heavenly Father.

But we aren't perfect, but we are trying to be.

All my friends are female and neither they or I have any interest in eachother whatsoever (I really have no interest in anyone) if I lived with my female friends, then what?

What if I had nowhere to go?

[Roseslipper]

but why keep going to church if you couldn't be a real member? Do you mean a baptized or un baptized person? The Church is to help us and teach us to become perfect this takes time most of us will not be perfect in this life we will continue to learn and grow after our mortal life.

As far as the smoking and drinking habit it is hard to stop, but yes you need to stop before your baptized. I've seen many people do this. But I known people who went throw the trails of life , they fell back on these habits, or other bad habits. Does this make them bad? Of course not! Some stop coming because they feel guilty. This is something they should not do, they should still come. And work on overcoming this issue or any other they might have.

As far as the stop smoking clinic this is the first time I'm hearing of it. But I think it's a great idea!

[skippy740]

All my friends are female and neither they or I have any interest in eachother whatsoever (I really have no interest in anyone) if I lived with my female friends, then what?

What if I had nowhere to go?

On the surface, this appears to be cohabitating. I suppose the best way to prove there is no other relationship is to show that you have a lease agreement of some kind.

It would more than likely end up being a reason to meet with a member of the Mission Presidency for a baptismal interview and they would help determine if the living situation is acceptable according to church standards.

[Roseslipper]

Christ came to heal us (us imperfect people) He's the great physicain!

[Lakumi]

On the surface, this appears to be cohabitating. I suppose the best way to prove there is no other relationship is to show that you have a lease agreement of some kind.

It would more than likely end up being a reason to meet with a member of the Mission Presidency for a baptismal interview and they would help determine if the living situation is acceptable according to church standards.

Well I don't live with friends, but if I did move out obviously they'd be the first people I'd pick (I trust them not to kill me in my sleep or poison my food more then I'd trust any male stranger)

fine and well for the church to tell me that, but if I can't survive because I joined the church then joining wouldn't be a good idea at that time methinks.

[FlyAway]

Essentially, at least for me, it isn't the addiction that they are holding over your baptism. It is that they are waiting to see if you are willing to be obedient to the laws of the Lord. Obedience is essential whether its sacrificing your son or stopping smoking. Abraham went decades without children and when he is finally blessed with one, he is commanded to sacrifice him. What we want is second to the will of the Father. So if one wishes to obey the laws of the Lord, they will be blessed with the Holy Spirit to comfort them and help them. Members will encircle them. Just because someone is not baptized doesn't mean they are not friends and unsupported. By the time I was baptized I had moved in with members and was already titheing.

Baptism is such a personal and special thing. You know when you are ready. When you came here you knew there would be trials and temptations, but you came anyway. Once you are baptized anything and everything you had done is washed clean. It is up to you to remain clean, because normally you don't get a second baptism. When you are baptized, you are a representative of Jesus Christ and are agreeing to live within the laws of the Father. If you aren't ready, you know it. Never be baptized because of something other than your own pure intentions and sincere heart.

You shouldn't go back on your convenants, but there is always repentance for that. Just do your absolute best, God will know where your best stops and he will carry the rest of the weight for you.

Well I don't live with friends, but if I did move out obviously they'd be the first people I'd pick (I trust them not to kill me in my sleep or poison my food more then I'd trust any male stranger)

fine and well for the church to tell me that, but if I can't survive because I joined the church then joining wouldn't be a good idea at that time methinks.

If you are earnestly trying to live within the standards set forth then you will be taken care of. If you'd reach out to the Presidency, they would help. Joining the church isn't really about a good or bad time. If you know in your heart it's true, you get the fuzzy feeling or feel the Holy Ghost then you are already half way there. By choosing to not obey once you know the church is true you are only stealing blessings away from yourself. I know, I've been there. It wasn't worth it.

Take all the time you need. But you know the moment you realize it, and God knows when you know. Lol The blessings outweigh the hardships, I promise you.

Edited January 30, 2014 by FlyAway
double post

[FlyAway]

Well I don't live with friends, but if I did move out obviously they'd be the first people I'd pick (I trust them not to kill me in my sleep or poison my food more then I'd trust any male stranger)

fine and well for the church to tell me that, but if I can't survive because I joined the church then joining wouldn't be a good idea at that time methinks.

If you are earnestly trying to live within the standards set forth then you will be taken care of. If you'd reach out to the Presidency, they would help. Joining the church isn't really about a good or bad time. If you know in your heart it's true, you get the fuzzy feeling or feel the Holy Ghost then you are already half way there. By choosing to not obey once you know the church is true you are only stealing blessings away from yourself. I know, I've been there. It wasn't worth it.

Take all the time you need. But you know the moment you realize it, and God knows when you know. Lol The blessings outweigh the hardships, I promise you.

[mnn727]

I was at a leadership meeting once where the Stake President told us if we didn't smell smoke or alcohol on some of our members were were not doing our callings correctly, as we should be inviting all to Come unto Christ and make working on their bad habits secondary.

The Church is not a sanctuary for the perfect but an aid station to those in need.

[Quin]

One of the things I like about the church, Lakumi, is the general assumption that it's members are smart.

Meaning that if your best option available is x, that you'll choose to do x.

Also, that if you ARE choosing that option, that it is the best option available to you.

Case in point... The general assumption when a person isn't there on Sunday is that they're sick, working, or have another good reason.

((Doesn't mean people don't ask... Either Because that's just what friends do -Dude, missed you at work/ the game/ church/ the theatre/etc., where were you?" OR to see if there's any assistance you might need. The church is very good about understanding people have lives, and that sometimes the best option isn't the ideal option. I've been to churches where the assumption is that you're on the road to hell/aren't committed/guilt guilt guilt shame shame shame if you aren't there on Sunday. Face. Palm.))

What goes along with the "We believe you are smart" aspect, though, is that you'll also be aware of various pitfalls, hurdles, etc. And be aware that we are, too.

Meaning we ask about how you're coping with them.

Whether it's lack of sleep with a new baby, or struggles with the law of chastity in a living situation full of temptation.

While some individuals may be snarky, in my experience, most are understanding.

Like a recovering alcoholic working in a bar (many do).

Some people will be totally snarky (You should NEVER do that, are too stupid to live, etc.)

Most people will be understanding (That must be hard).

Q

[Lakumi]

By choosing to not obey once you know the church is true you are only stealing blessings away from yourself. I know, I've been there. It wasn't worth it.

Saying that a church is true, or believing that wholly as many do is something I just don't think I can do, simply because that's just not how my mind works.

I routinely challenge my own ideas and beliefs, and feel their evolution is vital to who I am and growing in this world.

While I do like the LDS church, and find its people kind, I don't truly think I could be a real part of any one religion.

To me it is limiting.