Spouse / Celestial Kingdom

[justinc]

Ok, so I have a friend who left the Church. His wife is still a believer. She has told him that her future hope is to remarry someone else so that she can be in the Celestial Kingdom.

I need your help. Tell me whats wrong with her Theology because he is really hurt by her believing this.

[Just_A_Guy]

There are probably better sources out there, but here's a start:

Whatever the outcome and no matter how difficult your experiences, you have the promise that you will not be denied the blessings of eternal family relationships if you love the Lord, keep His commandments, and just do the best you can. When young Jacob “suffered afflictions and much sorrow” from the actions of other family members, Father Lehi assured him, “Thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain” (2 Nephi 2:1–2). Similarly, the Apostle Paul assured us that “all things work together for good to them that love God” (Romans 8:28).

I can visualize a situation where he becomes obnoxiously vocal enough in his nonbelief that the wife just decides she's done putting up with it. But nonbelief per se is not a theologically valid ground for divorce; and that's in the Bible.

[justinc]

I don't think she's talking about divorce. I think she means that after they die she will remarry someone else to get in the Celestial Kingdom. He is quite upset about what she is saying.

[estradling75]

The scriptures teach that Marriage is honorable for all. The Lord respects in and expects the individuals in question to respect it as well.

JAG pointed out that no righteous desire would be denied the faithful... But you might want to ask the lady how she expects to be considered faithful if she alienates her husband so much her marriage falls apart?

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't think she's talking about divorce. I think she means that after they die she will remarry someone else to get in the Celestial Kingdom. He is quite upset about what she is saying.

That's a problem.

She's being pretty tactless; but honestly--it's true. If wife wants exaltation, and lives in such a way that through the Atonement of Christ she is deemed worthy to attain it, then (per Mormon theology) she will either attain it with her husband or with some other man. The only other option would be for her to give up her exaltation and accept a lesser degree of heavenly glory so as not to offend her husband; and nothing in LDS doctrine says that he has the right to require that of her.

[justinc]

Don't you guys think this sort of theology is somewhat disturbing?

[Guest]

She's being pretty tactless; but honestly--it's true. If wife wants exaltation, and lives in such a way that through the Atonement of Christ she is deemed worthy to attain it, then (per Mormon theology) she will either attain it with her husband or with some other man. The only other option would be for her to give up her exaltation and accept a lesser degree of heavenly glory so as not to offend her husband; and nothing in LDS doctrine says that he has the right to require that of her.

It may be doctrinally correct but there is no way a wife who does not put 100% of herself in love and service to her earthly marriage can qualify for the Celestial Kingdom - let alone qualify to have another worthy male be her eternal husband.

The doctrine is only applicable to a spouse who has done everything in his/her power to fulfill his/her covenants to the best of his/her ability and, for some reason, his/her spouse failed to fulfill the same.

At this point - the non-believing husband has a better chance at the Celestial Kingdom than the believing wife. The husband does not have the knowledge and testimony to make eternal covenants and would, therefore, have the chance to gain this testimony in the Spirit World and qualify for eternal marriage with a worthy wife. The believing wife is under covenant and by the attitude portrayed in the OP (if I'm understanding it correctly), is failing it... she might be the one that is going to get left in the dust.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Don't you guys think this sort of theology is somewhat disturbing?

Perhaps she's scared and is trying scare him into returning. Not the most logical method...but I'm just grasping at straws here.

What I would do if I were in her position (and what I hope my husband would do if the roles were reversed) would be to continue living my life the best way I can, and loving my husband as unconditionally (as much as humans are capable of). No preaching, no guilt trips, no scare tactics...just love him and accept him the way he is. Let the future (i.e. Celestial Kingdom) work itself out. In my opinion that the behavior expected of someone who hopes to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Leah]

It may be doctrinally correct but there is no way a wife who does not put 100% of herself in love and service to her earthly marriage can qualify for the Celestial Kingdom - let alone qualify to have another worthy male be her eternal husband.

The doctrine is only applicable to a spouse who has done everything in his/her power to fulfill his/her covenants to the best of his/her ability and, for some reason, his/her spouse failed to fulfill the same.

At this point - the non-believing husband has a better chance at the Celestial Kingdom than the believing wife. The husband does not have the knowledge and testimony to make eternal covenants and would, therefore, have the chance to gain this testimony in the Spirit World and qualify for eternal marriage with a worthy wife. The believing wife is under covenant and by the attitude portrayed in the OP (if I'm understanding it correctly), is failing it... she might be the one that is going to get left in the dust.

If I am to understand your post correctly....a spouse who has left the church and turned his back on his covenants has a better shot at the Celestial Kingdom than the spouse who remains in the church? He made a choice to leave the church, after having "the knowledge and testimony". She seems to be trying to stay.

Also, maybe the OP - not being Mormon - does not have a grasp on the subject and misunderstood the wife? All we have is second-hand information from a non-Mormon who doesn't (of course) grasp the subject...and we don't know know the wife's grasp on the subject, either.

But to read your statement, you are giving more forgiveness and credibility to the one who turned their back on the church and their covenants.

[justinc]

If I am to understand your post correctly....a spouse who has left the church and turned his back on his covenants has a better shot at the Celestial Kingdom than the spouse who remains in the church? He made a choice to leave the church, after having "the knowledge and testimony". She seems to be trying to stay.

Also, maybe the OP - not being Mormon - does not have a grasp on the subject and misunderstood the wife? All we have is second-hand information from a non-Mormon who doesn't (of course) grasp the subject...and we don't know know the wife's grasp on the subject, either.

But to read your statement, you are giving more forgiveness and credibility to the one who turned their back on the church and their covenants.

P.S I myself am former LDS.

[Anddenex]

Don't you guys think this sort of theology is somewhat disturbing?

No.

[estradling75]

Don't you guys think this sort of theology is somewhat disturbing?

In most Christan theology marriage does not exist at all after the resurrection. I would imagine that some would find that disturbing (probably proportional to how much they like their current marriage)... They answer this disturbance with faith knowing that the Lord will make it all right in the end somehow.

However if such a couple that don't believe that the marriage has lasting value hits a rough spot and start talking about why they (or just one of them) should put any effort into something that will not last... Well I would say they are doing pretty much the same thing the woman in your post is doing... Devaluing their current relationship. And that is disturbing.

LDS are the only group that I am aware off that take as a matter of doctrine that Marriages can last if done properly (although other might assume or hope for it). Of course this doctrine brings with it all of our current baggage marriages and divorce that our current mortal state is heir to. Thus creating the potential for some disturbance. Such disturbance is answered with faith knowing that the Lord will make it all right in the end.

[Connie]

Ok, so I have a friend who left the Church. His wife is still a believer. She has told him that her future hope is to remarry someone else so that she can be in the Celestial Kingdom.

I need your help. Tell me whats wrong with her Theology because he is really hurt by her believing this.

Don't you guys think this sort of theology is somewhat disturbing?

I am sorry to hear that he is upset by her choice. I wonder how she felt when he made the choice that he didn't want to be with her for eternity. Perhaps it was a reactionary response?

No, i don't find it disturbing that people can make choices for their own life based on their beliefs. Our choices certainly affect those around us though, especially those we are closest to.

[Anddenex]

Ok, so I have a friend who left the Church. His wife is still a believer. She has told him that her future hope is to remarry someone else so that she can be in the Celestial Kingdom.

I need your help. Tell me whats wrong with her Theology because he is really hurt by her believing this.

Let me clarify my response, "No," and why I am not disturbed, and why there is nothing wrong with your friends wife's response.

If he was active and they married in the temple he voluntarily made a covenant with her for time and all eternity. There was no compulsion for him to be sealed to his wife. This means he also knows that there is no promise, if there is no faithfulness, as the Lord declared, "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

He now has voluntarily made a decision, choosing to use his agency, to leave this promise by which the Lord is no longer bound to uphold. Then what with her? What happens to women whose husbands are unfaithful? Her statement appears correct, the Lord will provide another. When David fell from exaltation we are told by the Lord, that his wives will be given to another (Source)

Then you ask, if "I" find this disturbing, since I can only speak for myself? The husband has volantarily chosen, using his agency, to remove himself from the Lord's blessings...and the wife recognizes this. Her husband has implied by his actions that he doesn't desire to be with her for time and all eternity anyway.

Why would I be disturbed by the consequence of ones own voluntarily choosing? I wouldn't. As Nephi declared to his brothers, 1 Nephi 16: 1-4, "1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.

3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord."

She has declared something hard for him, but she has spoken the truth, and he is choosing himself to remove himself from her embrace for time and all eternity. I am not disturbed by agency and the consequences of our personal agency before God -- because God is just.

EDIT: And by the way, the same truth is applied to me, should I remove myself from the Lord's covenant and my wife remains faithful...then she will not loose her reward and I will only have myself to blame...this is just.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Anddenex

[Quin]

Why do I have a feeling that the conversation went something like this:

"No. Really. I'm done. I'm leaving the church. I don't believe in anything anymore."

"Well, then you won't mind when I remarry someone else, so I can be in the Celestial Kingdom."

"No, you won't. That's wrong, hurtful, an awful thing to say."

"What do you care? I thought you didn't believe?"

"I don't."

"Then you shouldn't care WHO I'm married to in the Celestial Kingdom. Since families aren't eternal. I'm thinking a Swedish Men's Ski Team member. Or maybe swimming? Volleyball? Don't worry. Sven & I will make sure the children visit you. Oh wait- You don't believe. Never mind. Sven & I & the kids will be fine without you."

Q

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon justinc. I hope you are having a wonderful day! :)

Ok, so I have a friend who left the Church. His wife is still a believer. She has told him that her future hope is to remarry someone else so that she can be in the Celestial Kingdom.

I need your help. Tell me whats wrong with her Theology because he is really hurt by her believing this.

You don't specify in your post if this couple has been sealed. However, if they were sealed and the husband walks away from the Church, this in no way affects the sealing that was given to the wife.

It is important to realize that marriage and sealing are not the same thing. The sealing that is pronounced on the man and woman during the sealing ceremony is for the couple but it is also an individual sealing which can only be negated by the unrepented sins of the invidual.

-Finrock

Edited February 13, 2014 by Finrock
Fix error in typing

[Just_A_Guy]

Don't you guys think this sort of theology is somewhat disturbing?

Let me turn that back on you.

Let's assume, for a moment, that 1) Mormonism is substantially true, and therefore 2) you can only attain the highest level of heaven if, among other things, you have a partner to share that level with, and 3) your life-partner/spouse, having failed to live worthy of that reward, now demands that you forfeit it as well--

Don't you think that would be disturbing?

Really, this is all just a uniquely Mormon manifestation of an age-old philosophical question: How much is it worth sacrificing for "love"? Is it right for me to put the feelings of my romantic partner above my own principles/morality/God/future?

To me, the bottom line is: If Mormonism's false, then as long as her theological statements aren't affecting the way she's actually treating her husband--well, his only possible complaint is that his wife believes differently than he does. If it's true, then he should either shape up or thank his lucky stars that they get to be together for at least this lifetime.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Connie]

I am wondering if what this man is really upset about is that his wife didn't follow him out of the church and into unbelief, since i am also wondering why he would care if he no longer believes. There's not much info to go on here. Too many assumptions have to be made. Almost sounds like he's upset because of her belief and she's upset because of his unbelief.

In any case, their conflicting belief systems have obviously caused some strain on the relationship. I hope they are able to work things out. It's a toughie.

[gfchase]

Justinc - Remember that we all progress line upon line and precept upon precept. You have left the church for whatever your reasons are and it appears that your friends husband is in the same process. The basic principles of the gospel are simple enough for a child to understand, but as we progress we may lose sight of those simple principles that we once knew were true. Sometimes people are influenced by friends or family that the church simply can't be true, while sometimes we feel guilty about the sins we are committing and are not comfortable in church, while others may have myriad reasons. I myself once had a long period in my life when I knew that the church was true but was more interested in continuing with the sins that were apparently more important to me than repentance. Whether you or your friends husband ever come back into the church is between you and the Lord and your friend the same. I would suggest that your friend go to the Lord in sincere prayer for as long as it takes for her to come to an understanding of what the Lord wants for her in her particular situation. If she will go to the Temple often because the veil is thinner there and pour her heart out to Father, she will not fail in understanding what HE wants for her. It may be that she needs to repent and ask her husbands forgiveness for her attitude and set the example for him in his process. In the end it is between them individually and the Lord and perhaps their Bishop, but one of the questions I am sure the Bishop will ask is are they praying together daily as a couple and studying the Book of Mormon daily as well. If they truly want to repair their marriage it will not be possible unless and until they both will do those things.

Jerry

Edited February 14, 2014 by gfchase

[EarlJibbs]

Ok, so I have a friend who left the Church. His wife is still a believer. She has told him that her future hope is to remarry someone else so that she can be in the Celestial Kingdom.

I need your help. Tell me whats wrong with her Theology because he is really hurt by her believing this.

Maybe hurt the way she says it? I can't understand that the mere fact that if he doesn't believe it, why would it hurt? Or although he left the church does this mean that it isn't his unbelief as to the reason he left. What she said was true, however, how she said it may have been the hurtful thing.

I can't say that I would expect my wife to act any differently, especially if we were sealed together. She didn't sign up for that. A covenant must be taken seriously. One doesn't just back out of a promise without consequences.

Although I would hope my wife would have patience with me, I think she would be justified to remind me that I can't live with her in Heaven without keeping my covenants.