Backroads Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 a big long heated discussion here a few years ago. It returns...
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 As I said, not for you or anyone else to decide what a parent chooses. The person who is being cavalier is you...I am well within my realm of stewardship...parents decision.Wrong, unless you believe it is well within the realm of parents to decide to scarify their children's faces, as is done in some African cultures, or amputate their children's toes.I thought we were talking about circumcision which the Lord commanded...?Kind of a stupid thought, truth be told. We were never talking about circumcision which the Lord commanded. We have always and only been talking about circumcision which the Lord did not command.
Just_A_Guy Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Y'all make me hope my next baby (due March 30, gender unknown) is a daughter . . .
estradling75 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Y'all make me hope my next baby (due March 30, gender unknown) is a daughter . . .Don't worry about it JAG... Parents have tons of ways of totally screwing up the kids. This topic is debating an issue specific for boys, but girls have there own unique ones too.When such issues come up you study it out, make a choice, that that choice to the Lord. Then you follow the Lord's direction in the matter. That way you can be confident that you made the right choice and that you are right with God. All those that would call your choose horrible can say or do whatever they want, because they will not matter.
Finrock Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Hi Jenamarie and Hi Vort. I hope you both are doing well today! :)Given my family's medical history, my daughter's breast tissue poses a far greater health risk than do my sons' foreskins. Should I have her breasts removed now, as prevention, before they become risky, or should I let them perform their God-given biological function until such time as a real threat occurs?Removing a whole organ as a preventative measure isn't the same as removing a part of an organ which still allows the organ to retain its full functionality. If I could eliminate or mitigate the risk of cancer or some other medical issue simply by removing a small portion of my daughters breasts and which doesn't prevent the breast to function as intended, I would absolutely do it. Not when the skin is the body part. Amputating the foreskin removes 1/3 to 1/2 of the nerve endings in the distal end of the penis, and completely alters the mechanical properties of sex. The foreskin is far more than "some skin".I'd like to see a reference for the claim that the foreskin is a separate organ as opposed to it being a part of the penis organ. I've search the net and can't find any reputable source that makes such a distinction. Please and thank you. :)The sexual functionality of the uncircumcised penis seems to be the only issue with circumcision. But, sexual pleasure and performance is subjective. There are no indications that people who are circumcised are less sexually satisfied than those who are still intact. So, although the mechanical properties of sex are altered, it doesn't seem to matter.By removing a small portion of skin from the penis you can decrease and in some cases completely eliminate the likelyhood of various medical problems associated with the uncircumsized penis.With anesthetic the procedure is virtually painless and poses no significant threat to the infant. In most all cases infants grow up with a fully functional penis doing practically all the things a penis should do.The attempt in this thread to shame and humiliate parents who have circumcised their children with hyperbolic langauge and faux moral superiority is a complete overreaction and, frankly, ridiculous.-Finrock
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 The attempt in this thread to shame and humiliate parents who have circumcised their children with hyperbolic langauge and faux moral superiority is a complete overreaction and, frankly, ridiculous.-FinrockThe lies told by the pro-cut-your-infant-son's-penis people is even more ridiculous. For example, read your sentence above.It's actually very easy. Leave your son's penis alone. Don't cut part of it off. Let him do it when he reaches adulthood, if he wants to. (I can give you a 99% guarantee he won't.)By the way, my wife never once thanked my parents for cutting off the end of my penis. Nor did I. Nor did my brothers thank my parents for cutting off the ends of their penises, nor my sisters-in-law. So the "they'll-thank-me-later" excuse is but another lie.
Finrock Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) The lies told by the pro-cut-your-infant-son's-penis people is even more ridiculous. For example, read your sentence above.I may have misunderstood the implications and the various cues that are generally used to shame others while elevating their own moral status in various posts, but my sentence isn't a lie.You're calling me a liar as we speak. No implications required. Thus, when you accuse me of being a liar you are at the same time elevating your own moral standing.By the way, my wife never once thanked my parents for cutting off the end of my penis. Nor did I. Nor did my brothers thank my parents for cutting off the ends of their penises, nor my sisters-in-law. So the "they'll-thank-me-later" excuse is but another lie.I haven't made a "they'll-thank-me-later" argument. But, I do thank my parents for circumcising me because I didn't have to deal with the painful issues my little brother did, who was not circumcised-Finrock Edited February 18, 2014 by Finrock
Anddenex Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Wrong, unless you believe it is well within the realm of parents to decide to scarify their children's faces, as is done in some African cultures, or amputate their children's toes.The only thing wrong is you telling others, parents, what is right and wrong...plain and simple truth. If a parent decides to amputate one of their children's toes for medical reasoning...sure, their choice through meditation and consultation with a doctor. If they have six toes, and the sixth toe is useless, sure, remove it...up to the parent.Foreskin removal and scarify their childs face...ya, those are good comparison for parental decisions.Kind of a stupid thought, truth be told. We were never talking about circumcision which the Lord commanded. We have always and only been talking about circumcision which the Lord did not command.OP's statement, "So I was wondering since we are no longer required to do so anymore.." which implies the Lord's commanding at one point and now has left it up to us...personal decision. Yes, we have been talking about what the Lord commanded..a father...who once declared to do so...(your argument by the way is the same argument atheist give for how stupid it was for the Lord to command it in the first place).If you want to look at stupid thoughts, reread this post to Finrock, "By the way, my wife never once thanked my parents for cutting off the end of my penis. Nor did I. Nor did my brothers thank my parents for cutting off the ends of their penises, nor my sisters-in-law. So the "they'll-thank-me-later" excuse is but another lie."I have thanked my parents for circumcision, so your point "but another lie" is a fallacy. My father still doesn't appreciate his parents for not circumcizing him as a baby..."again...your "but another lie" is proven false. If you don't like curcumcision, they you don't like it...telling another parent it is wrong, or right, not your place.
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Foreskin removal and scarify their childs face...ya, those are good comparison for parental decisions.At least we agree on that.I have thanked my parents for circumcision, so your point "but another lie" is a fallacy.No, it is not. I was told my son would "thank me". He never has. He has asked me why he was circumcised when his brothers were not. But he has never thanked me, and I am quite sure he never will, nor my future daughter-in-law. So it was indeed a lie from your camp.If you don't like curcumcision, they you don't like it...telling another parent it is wrong, or right, not your place.Why not? Is it also "not my place" to tell them that circumcising their daughter is wrong, or cutting of their baby's toes is wrong?This is not a "medical decision". That is another distortion from the pro-cut-your-baby's-penis camp. Few people disagree with needed surgery. Elective circumcision is not "needed surgery". It is the very definition of genital mutilation.
Latter Days Guy Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 I'm with Vort here, your child isn't your property, and his penis isn't either. Unless there is a medical reason for it, leave it alone. In the UK circumcision isn't routinely carried out on infant boys, other than those of Jewish or Islamic faith. We certainly don't have any epidemic of penis related diseases here! As for the argument that its better to get it done as an infant to save them pain in later life, utter rubbish! I was circumcised two years ago due to having a tightening of the foreskin. Other than some mild discomfort for a few hours after the initial pain relief wore off I was fine. If I had the choice of being with or without it I would certainly be in the with camp, it certainly has had detrimental effect on my sex life as the wife thinks it looks weird and the increase in sensitivity is just bad!
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 I'm with Vort here, your child isn't your property, and his penis isn't either. Unless there is a medical reason for it, leave it alone. In the UK circumcision isn't routinely carried out on infant boys, other than those of Jewish or Islamic faith. We certainly don't have any epidemic of penis related diseases here! As for the argument that its better to get it done as an infant to save them pain in later life, utter rubbish! I was circumcised two years ago due to having a tightening of the foreskin. Other than some mild discomfort for a few hours after the initial pain relief wore off I was fine. If I had the choice of being with or without it I would certainly be in the with camp, it certainly has had detrimental effect on my sex life as the wife thinks it looks weird and the increase in sensitivity is just bad!I am sure your experiences will be written off by many here as merely one anecdotal story without any real significance. If it makes any difference, and I expect it doesn't, I'm sorry you had to be circumcised.As for the sensitivity, I expect that now that two years have passed, you will find your glans less sensitive as time goes on.I note that Americans have a running joke based on the understanding that older men can't engage in sex any more. In my time in Europe, I don't recall that idea. Certainly older men did not engage in sex as frequently, but their ability to do so remained largely unaffected. Coincidentally, Europeans rarely circumcise their sons.I also note that Viagra is very popular in the US. With 4% of the world's population, Americans consume just under 50% of the Viagra. Another country where the rate is as high as the US? Israel. Amazingly, the usage rate in Europe -- an area at least as promiscuous and sex-obsessed as the US -- is much lower.Just more coincidences, I'm sure.Heck, old guys don't need sex anyway.
Finrock Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 One last thought and I'll be done with this conversation.It's actually very easy. Leave your son's penis alone. Don't cut part of it off. Let him do it when he reaches adulthood, if he wants to. (I can give you a 99% guarantee he won't.)Thank you for your opinion and I respect your opinion. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong in holding the view that you do. However, your view isn't morally superior to those who have circumcised or who are contemplating the circumcision of their sons.I feel good about my choice and I feel no shame or need to repent. I have no guilt, whatsoever, for circumcising my sons. I don't feel at all that I will be held accountable before God for having circumcised my sons.-Finrock
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 However, your view isn't morally superior to those who have circumcised or who are contemplating the circumcision of their sons.Actually, yes it is. Refusing to cut the end off your son's penis for non-medical or aesthetic reasons >>>>>>>> cutting it off.I feel good about my choice and I feel no shame or need to repent. I have no guilt, whatsoever, for circumcising my sons. I don't feel at all that I will be held accountable before God for having circumcised my sons.What nonsense. Even you cannot possibly believe that you will not account to God for your own freely taken actions. Of course you will. We all will.
Anddenex Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 At least we agree on that.No, it is not. I was told my son would "thank me". He never has. He has asked me why he was circumcised when his brothers were not. But he has never thanked me, and I am quite sure he never will, nor my future daughter-in-law. So it was indeed a lie from your camp.Yes, it actually is no matter how you want to slice it, as you say, "from your camp." I have already provided evidence, I have thanked my parents, so where is the lie from "my" camp Vort? Have other people thanked their parents? Yes, apparently not a lie from my camp.Why not? Is it also "not my place" to tell them that circumcising their daughter is wrong, or cutting of their baby's toes is wrong?This is not a "medical decision". That is another distortion from the pro-cut-your-baby's-penis camp. Few people disagree with needed surgery. Elective circumcision is not "needed surgery". It is the very definition of genital mutilation.Yes, Vort, you do not have ANY right to tell a parent they are wrong...wait a minute does this mean I can tell you how wrong you are in homeschooling your children? Or is this not my place? How far do you want to take your "I can tell parents whatever I want to tell them....because I know better than them?" Or respond outside of your stewardship Vort?
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 I have already provided evidence, I have thanked my parents, so where is the lie from "my" camp Vort?That my son would thank me. That my parents' sons and their wives would thank them.Yes, Vort, you do not have ANY right to tell a parent they are wrong...wait a minute does this mean I can tell you how wrong you are in homeschooling your children?Sure. Many do. They prove their ignorance in doing so.How far do you want to take your "I can tell parents whatever I want to tell them....because I know better than them?" Or respond outside of your stewardship Vort?Then you agree that it is not your place to raise a cry of outrage against parents who circumcise their daughters, beat their children into comas, or scarify their faces based on tribal custom. Right? If you agree to that, then I will concede your point in the sense you are talking about. (I won't agree with it, but I will concede you are being consistent.)
Finrock Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Okay, one more post for clarification, then I'm done. What nonsense. Even you cannot possibly believe that you will not account to God for your own freely taken actions. Of course you will. We all will.You're right. I didn't mean that I would not have to explain my decisions, good or bad, to God. What I mean is that I've committed no sin and I need not atone for having circumcised my sons, your opinion notwithstanding.-Finrock
Anddenex Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 We certainly don't have any epidemic of penis related diseases here! As for the argument that its better to get it done as an infant to save them pain in later life, utter rubbish! Here's a lie "from your camp" Vort.
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Here's a lie "from your camp" Vort.What's the lie, Anddenex? That Brits don't have an epidemic of penis-related diseases? If so, please demonstrate that there is in fact a serious outbreak of penis disorders in Great Britain that pertain specifically to not having their foreskins amputated at birth.Or is the supposed lie that it's rubbish to claim it's better to cut off part of an infant's penis to save pain later in life if he decides as an adult to get it cut off? If so, please demonstrate how on God's green earth this is a lie.If it is neither of these, please explain what you're talking about.
Vort Posted February 18, 2014 Report Posted February 18, 2014 Okay, one more post for clarification, then I'm done. You're right. I didn't mean that I would not have to explain my decisions, good or bad, to God. What I mean is that I've committed no sin and I need not atone for having circumcised my sons, your opinion notwithstanding.Oh, I understand perfectly that you believe this. I also believe that God will not condemn us for our foolish but innocent actions; I don't believe God will condemn those who scarify their children's faces as part of tribal custom, for example, nor do I believe God will condemn those who mutilate their daughters' genitals for similar reasons.But when people refuse to consider an issue when confronted with other facts and evidence, and instead cling blindly to their foolish beliefs -- something we all do to some degree -- then at some point, yes, they will stand before God to account for that, and they will not be lightly dismissed for their willful blindness.Are you willfully blind with respect to circumcision, or is this merely a foolish deception that you haven't yet grown beyond? I can't make that judgment. But even if you are in that situation, wagging it in my face in mockery will not do you or your descendants any good.You likely will not stand condemned before God for the mutilation of your sons' penises. Bully for you. I don't begrudge you that. On the other hand, I will have grandsons and great-grandsons and so on who have intact penises. It's too bad about your male descendants' ongoing infant penis mutilation, and that it didn't stop with your children's generation as it might have.
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