Cheap sex: The economics of dating and marraige

[Vort]

The economics of sex: Has the price gotten too cheap? | New York Post

Who says the New York Times never prints anything worthwhile?

Oh, wait, that's the Post. Never mind.

[skippy740]

It makes you wonder how the prostitutes can stay in business...

[classylady]

I read the article, didn't watch the video. The article seems to make sense. But, then I started to think about LDS young adults. In our LDS culture, premarital sex is not accepted. One would think that would push young men and women into marriage at an earlier age. And, in the past that was so. And may even be so now days to some extent. But, from what I've read (no sources come to mind), our young men and women are postponing marriage just like the rest of the nation and other first world countries. If our LDS young men and women are not getting married to have physical relations, and still waiting until marriage, what is the reason for them postponing marriage? Economics? Culture? According to the article one would think our LDS young men would be pushing for marriage in order to satisfy their testosterone driven urges. The article implies that women are in the driver's seat when it comes to physical relationships. Is that the case in our LDS culture when both genders wait for marriage?

[Palerider]

In the area where I live across the river are certain risky type clubs. Today in local newspaper was an article about said dancers in these clubs have filed a law suit in regards to tips and wages.

[Quin]

I read the article, didn't watch the video. The article seems to make sense. But, then I started to think about LDS young adults. In our LDS culture, premarital sex is not accepted. One would think that would push young men and women into marriage at an earlier age. And, in the past that was so. And may even be so now days to some extent. But, from what I've read (no sources come to mind), our young men and women are postponing marriage just like the rest of the nation and other first world countries. If our LDS young men and women are not getting married to have physical relations, and still waiting until marriage, what is the reason for them postponing marriage? Economics? Culture? According to the article one would think our LDS young men would be pushing for marriage in order to satisfy their testosterone driven urges. The article implies that women are in the driver's seat when it comes to physical relationships. Is that the case in our LDS culture when both genders wait for marriage?

Totally anecdotal:

I have 2 groups of friends &/or peers (like colleagues, PTA, etc.) who are married with kids:

LDS = 20s

Everyone else = 40s

It's like moving between 2 entirely different worlds. In my non-lds circle and at large it's school & casual dating in 20s, career & serious dating in 30s, marriage & family in your 40s. I was a statistical outlier (married & kids in my 20s). In my kids' 700 kid elementary school I was the ONLY parent in her 20's. And there were less than a dozen in their 30s. In their middle school, I'm one of 4 (yep, 4) parents in their 30s. 1500 kids. "Everyone" is in their 40s-60s.

So... From MY viewpoint: Yah. LDS folk tend to marry young.

Q

[Just_A_Guy]

I read the article, didn't watch the video. The article seems to make sense. But, then I started to think about LDS young adults. In our LDS culture, premarital sex is not accepted. One would think that would push young men and women into marriage at an earlier age. And, in the past that was so. And may even be so now days to some extent. But, from what I've read (no sources come to mind), our young men and women are postponing marriage just like the rest of the nation and other first world countries. If our LDS young men and women are not getting married to have physical relations, and still waiting until marriage, what is the reason for them postponing marriage? Economics? Culture? According to the article one would think our LDS young men would be pushing for marriage in order to satisfy their testosterone driven urges. The article implies that women are in the driver's seat when it comes to physical relationships. Is that the case in our LDS culture when both genders wait for marriage?

Young men are increasingly told they're sexist pigs for wanting a young woman to marry them before graduation from college. So they turn to porn instead as a short-term fix, and then decide maybe they don't need a wife after all.

Crazy, I know.

[Quin]

It's dangerous getting married in college.

Completely wrecks your financial aid package. Means one person usually has to drop out and work to support the other through school.

Again, anecdotally, that person is usually the wife. Who'll "go back" as soon as the husband graduates.

But then it's either gradschool (usually out of state), and to stay competitive, one has to go right away... Or hubby starts working. Which tanks any hope for financial aid. New grads make squat, so they're usually in the make too much for financial aid, but not enough to pay for school out of pocket.

If they DO manage to keep both spouses in school, it means they never see each other, as both have to work and be in school in order to make both ends meet the middle (and most give up "for just a few quarters" that turns into the first lot above, and it's years later, if ever).

Meanwhile, in either case, the couple grows apart.

Either from one moving upward (both intellectually, status wise, and financial ability), while the other stays put... Which can and very often leads to both resentment and loss of respect... Not to mention living in totally different worlds OR because they plain and simple never see each other.

Two of the best known danger zones for divorce:

- After graduation (I flipped burgers to put him brough Medschool is legal slang)

- After "making it" (First wives club).

It's not sexism.

It's experience.

Women are no longer going to school for the MRS degree.

They're going to school in order to be hireable. To be able to have careers.

We've been at this a few generations, now.

So we have the odds of what getting married whilst in school does to so many.

They're bad odds.

Really bad odds.

Pullman University actually had it's graduating married students (both graduating) stand up for an extra ovation a few years back when my sister graduated. It's that recognizably rare.

If a bloke cant wait a year or two... How can one expect a lifetime?

When he knows the odds as well as you?

Worse, would rather _________ (impolite term) in make-believe land on the computer than be in a real relationship where you're both putting the other person's success forefront?

Bullet dodged, I say.

Q

[Backroads]

I found the video fascinating and refreshingly moral, albeit scientific.

[applepansy]

I liked the article.

Women really need to understand how much power we have. Why we don't understand has always baffled me.

[LittleWyvern]

But, from what I've read (no sources come to mind), our young men and women are postponing marriage just like the rest of the nation and other first world countries. If our LDS young men and women are not getting married to have physical relations, and still waiting until marriage, what is the reason for them postponing marriage? Economics? Culture? According to the article one would think our LDS young men would be pushing for marriage in order to satisfy their testosterone driven urges. The article implies that women are in the driver's seat when it comes to physical relationships. Is that the case in our LDS culture when both genders wait for marriage?

I read an article in a sociology class that argued that the younger generation is postponing marriage because marriage is becoming less common. Thus, marriage is becoming less "something everybody does" and more a prestigious accomplishment, so young adults increasingly think marriage is something you have to build up to over time.

I'm sure I'm massively oversimplifying the paper, so I'll try to find the reference to it.

[Dravin]

The article implies that women are in the driver's seat when it comes to physical relationships. Is that the case in our LDS culture when both genders wait for marriage?

Fundamentally the article is talking about the power the comes from having something that someone else wants that they have to get from you (the you in this case being women collectively). While traditional gender norms are changing in the Church you still see women as the gate-keepers on dates and marriage*, and there are forms of physical affection that are generally considered acceptable and which one can argue the same paradigm exists. In short, if men are going to women for something that they can only (either through biology or culture) get from women then women are in the economic position the article is talking about, it doesn't just apply to sex.

*The expectation is that men convince women to date them, and that they convince women to marry them. At least that's my perception.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Dravin

[Vort]

Fundamentally the article is talking about the power the comes from having something that someone else wants that they have to get from you (the you in this case being women collectively). While traditional gender norms are changing in the Church you still see women as the gate-keepers on dates and marriage*, and there are forms of physical affection that are generally considered acceptable and which one can argue the same paradigm exists. In short, if men are going to women for something that they can only (either through biology or culture) get from women then women are in the economic position the article is talking about, it doesn't just apply to sex.

*The expectation is that men convince women to date them, and that they convince women to marry them. At least that's my perception.

I found the article distasteful because it discusses sex as a commodity, not unlike pork belly futures or a carload of bauxite ore. I found the video distasteful because of, among other things, the suggestion that women do and should control sex. I find both ideas repugnant. But on a purely academic level, both are also true. I find the idea of a wife withholding sex from her husband because she's "not in the mood" or some such nonsense to be loathsome, but several orders of magnitude less loathsome than our modern hook-up culture.

[Backroads]

In a round-about way of subtext, I felt the video was trying to promote marriage.

[Dravin]

I found the article distasteful because it discusses sex as a commodity, not unlike pork belly futures or a carload of bauxite ore. I found the video distasteful because of, among other things, the suggestion that women do and should control sex. I find both ideas repugnant. But on a purely academic level, both are also true. I find the idea of a wife withholding sex from her husband because she's "not in the mood" or some such nonsense to be loathsome, but several orders of magnitude less loathsome than our modern hook-up culture.

The interesting things is if you flip the traditional roles, from an economic perspective the man should use his leverage of being the sole breadwinner to maximize what he gets in the relationship. I expect an article talking about how men should use their fiscal advantage, and the withholding or metering out thereof, to control the relationship wouldn't be well received even though the underlying economic principles are the same.

Personally, I think any relationship the hits the point where the parties are actively seeking to maximize economic advantage over the other to control the relationship has reached a bad place. A relationship shouldn't be a competitive market place, it should be a cooperative with a shared goal and purpose.

[Windseeker]

I found the article distasteful because it discusses sex as a commodity, not unlike pork belly futures or a carload of bauxite ore. I found the video distasteful because of, among other things, the suggestion that women do and should control sex. I find both ideas repugnant. But on a purely academic level, both are also true. I find the idea of a wife withholding sex from her husband because she's "not in the mood" or some such nonsense to be loathsome, but several orders of magnitude less loathsome than our modern hook-up culture.

Women in the past have been the ones who controlled sex because the consequences of sex can and did have a bigger impact on their lives. Birth Control, Abortion and Welfare have removed the consequences.

More and more I'm seeing a return to encouraging women to use 'sex' wisely and I think it's a good thing. They can call it what they want, but in the end it's a return to morality and why a moral society is a healthy society.

I like this video it describes a new feminism that uses the word 'No' and values Men.

[Dravin]

In a round-about way of subtext, I felt the video was trying to promote marriage.

The problem is that as LDS we should understand that the reason to abstain from sex prior to marriage, and to get married in the first place, is not to maximize one's economic advantage in a relationship and further one's ability to control it, but because abstinence and marriage are the right thing to do. I don't begrudge academia looking at things from a purely economic perspective (and I find it interesting from that perspective), but I think as Latter-day Saints we should make sure we don't become too enamored of the argument even if the conclusion is in line with our own.

You see somewhat of what I'm talking about concerning the Word of Wisdom, people tend to get so enamored of the scientific backing that some aspects of the Word of Wisdom have that they sometimes lose focus on why we're obeying the Word of Wisdom. The fundamental reason to abstain from tobacco for LDS is not because of the studies suggesting tobacco is bad for you, but because we've covenanted to do so.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Dravin

[Praetorian_Brow]

My peacock feathers are still larger and brighter than anyone else's, too bad I am not interesting in playing the game she expects. I once sat among about 20 LDS who were women complaining about relationships and since I was the ambassador for the men, I thought it was necessary to point out that regardless of the social context or times, it was much the same between humans and animals when seeking a relationship of some kind. Posturing, displaying, demonstrating, all for a purpose. A few of the women objected to my point by stating they were daughters of God and didn't believe that and I had a hard time hiding my amusement as they tried to distance themselves from something so integral to life simply out of some trained morale compass.

Regardless of a changing moral compass at the root of motives, there seems to be an inherent cost benefit analysis to most life goals. Marriage is an investment, with benefits, thats why it is desireable, as is sex. If that wasn't so, no one would want them to happen. Naturally, someone will have the audacity to point out exceptions, such as the idealist polygamy perspective or eternal marriage simply as demonstrating obedience.

Since prostitution is the oldest trade, why be surprised that marriage or the road to marriage is any different? Speak of selfless service all you want, but it is extremely rare and unlikely, as even becoming selfless requires a certain road of selfish behaviour, then again, is it not selfish to want your spouse to be the most comfortable or happy, simply because that is what is best for the relationship or even to make the nagging disappear?