Jesus And Lucifer...

[Guest The Incredible Piff.]

in the Books of Abraham, when God is showing Abraham of the pre-existence and it talks about the plan for Earth, it doesnt identify Jesus and Lucifer as "brothers". is there a place that actually does or have i been misinformed about their relationship to each other?

[tiancum]

in the Books of Abraham, when God is showing Abraham of the pre-existence and it talks about the plan for Earth, it doesnt identify Jesus and Lucifer as "brothers". is there a place that actually does or have i been misinformed about their relationship to each other?

I believe Lucifer was once an angel in authority in the presence of God, and God's son. Since his fall he has sacrificed all of that. I read that ( i forget which general authority) he is not to be called Lucifer any more, he is fallen 'satan'. He is even incapable of accepting real love, which was basically his last free choice. He has no light, intelligence, truth, love (all synonymous) (so he cannot be called lucifer, which means light bearer/son of the Morning)and has no ties to the children of God any more. He is not therefore our brother, and not a Son of God, but a basterd (sorry spelling for blocker), giving up his royal birthright.

I would say some LDS mistakenly teach that we are brothers/sisters to him. But we will not find a single quote saying that we are currently siblings. I know I am not his brother. No gracias!!!

Christ stated in the new testament that the pharisees are his children, and he their father, because there was no lgith in them, like their father Satan.

[the_jason]

Everyone in the pre-existance, including Lucifer and his followers, were children of God. Lucifer is still our brother, and that would make Lucifer and Jehovah brothers as well.

[Guest The Incredible Piff.]

so am i to understand that to your knowledge, the Scriptures do not identify Jesus and Lucifer as ever being "brothers" in the same sense that Cain and Abel were "brothers" ?

Everyone in the pre-existance, including Lucifer and his followers, were children of God. Lucifer is still our brother, and that would make Lucifer and Jehovah brothers as well.

as opposed to both being literal offspring of God? (Jesus and Lucifer, that is)

[LukeAir2006]

[Guest The Incredible Piff.]

so basically, the relationship between Lucifer and Jesus in the pre-existence is no different that my own relationship with them?

another common thing i'm being told by critics of the LDS church is that, there is a distinction between Jesus, Lucifer and God & everyone else, to use and example

God = Adam

Jesus = Abel

Lucifer = Cain

not saying anyone has ever made this comparison in any form other than to say that God was their Father in a manner unequal to the way he was my Father in the pre-existence.

[LukeAir2006]

[ldsrebel]

It's too bad Saten's name is Lucifer...

I really like the name...

[LukeAir2006]

:)

[Guest The Incredible Piff.]

appreciate the info, thank you.

[CrimsonKairos]

All of us, including Satan, are God's Partly Begotten. That is, He is the Father of our spirits, but not our bodies.

Jesus Christ is the Wholly Begotten Son of God. Wholly, because both his spirit and his physical body sprang from the same Father: God.

[JcDean78]

I have never heard in any class teachings that we are brothers with Satan. I can however see how somebody could come to that logic being that Angels are children of God and that Satan is a fallen angel.

Adam is not God, and I have never heard that taught at all. Nor can there be any possible links to come to that conculsion through any type of reason. It is one of the many lies made up about what LDS believe.

[Dr T]

You missed that discussion on this site I guess JcDean78

[Traveler]

in the Books of Abraham, when God is showing Abraham of the pre-existence and it talks about the plan for Earth, it doesnt identify Jesus and Lucifer as "brothers". is there a place that actually does or have i been misinformed about their relationship to each other?

If one is able to read Hebrew they will find that in the literal Hebrew meaning of Bible scripture that we are told that Satan. is not an angel (his heavenly titile has no modern translation) and that he does indeed have a brother whoes rightful place is on the right hand of G-d. This is where the notion comes from that Satan is the "left" hand of G-d or on the left hand of G-d.

The Traveler

[ninjahobbit8]

It's too bad Saten's name is Lucifer...

I really like the name...

me too...and it's a common name for cats too

[Dr T]

Can you give me more information about that Traveler. A reference and the phrase/words in the Hebrew that I can look up please.

Thank you

[Traveler]

Can you give me more information about that Traveler. A reference and the phrase/words in the Hebrew that I can look up please.

Thank you

the Bible refers to Satan as a cherub that covers. The only reference in scripture to a covering cherub is in Exodus 25:20. In that same verse the KJV is translated as "their faces shall look one to another". The literal translation of the Hebrew from which that translation is taken should read "and the two brothers shall face each other". One on the right side of the mercy seat of G-d and one on the left side.

Let me know when you have had enough meat and I'll be quiet about this pearl of exceptional value that few of many Christian dominations will except from ancient original scripture manuscripts.

And a question for Dr T. Where in scripture does it tell us that a cherub is an angel?

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Angels are organized and ranked. One “archangel,” Michael is named (Jude 9). There are also “chief princes” (Dan.10:13), “seraphim” (Is.6:1-3) and “cherubim” (Gen.3:22-24).

The Fall of Satan

Key Passages – Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14

A. Ezekiel 28:11-19 is a prophetic lamentation over the “King of Tyre” who is described in language that fits Satan’s fall and not a mere human king. Satan is distinguished form the human ruler of Tyre in 28:2 (“prince/ruler”) and called a “king” in 28:12 (Not even Israel’s rulers were called “King”). Though Tyre had a human “ruler”, Satan was the real “King” behind that wicked kingdom.

B. His attributes – Moral perfection (v.12) Sinless at his creation until his fall (v.15)

C. His appearance – Perfect in beauty (v.12b,13)

1. His privileges – Free access to the garden of Eden (v.12) and to God’s holy mountain (= God’s presence – v.14)

2. His rank – “Cherub” (vs.14,16)

3. His judgment –

a. Cast out of the mountain of God (v.16, cf. Rev12:4)

b. Cast to the ground (v.17)

c. Consumed by fire (v.18, cf. Rev.20:10)

D. Isaiah 14:12-15 also seems to describe Satan’s fall. Satan is manifest here by the king of Babylon. As in Ezekiel 28, Satan is pictured here as the real “king” behind the wicked human kingdom of Babylon.

1. The imagery of a “star” and “falling from heaven” (v.12) suggests a supernatural fulfillment. “Stars” (v.12,13) are symbolic of the angelic realm elsewhere (Job 38:6,7; Rev.12:4).

2. The five “I will’s” of vss. 13 & 14 are literally true of Satan and only metaphorically true of Babylon’s king. This ultimate form of pride (“I will be like the Most High” – v.14) fits the New Testament description of Satan’s fall 1 Tim.3:6.

From Bible.org

Easton's Bible Dictionary

The following is the results of your search for CHERUB.

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Cherub: Plural cherubim, the name of certain symbolical figures frequently mentioned in Scripture. They are first mentioned in connection with the expulsion of our first parents from Eden (Genesis 3:24) There is no intimation given of their shape or form. They are next mentioned when Moses was commanded to provide furniture for the tabernacle (Exodus 25:17-20; 26:1,31) God promised to commune with Moses "from between the cherubim" (Exodus 25:22) This expression was afterwards used to denote the Divine abode and presence (Numbers 7:89; 1 Samuel 4:4; Isaiah 37:16) (Psalms 80:1; 99:1) In Ezekiel's vision (Ezekiel 10:1-20) they appear as living creatures supporting the throne of God. From Ezekiel's description of them (Ezekiel 1:10-25; 41:18, 19) they appear to have been compound figures, unlike any real object in nature; artificial images possessing the features and properties of several animals. Two cherubim were placed on the mercy-seat of the ark; two of colossal size overshadowed it in Solomon's temple. Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:4-14) speaks of four; and this number of "living creatures" is mentioned in (Revelation 4:6) Those on the ark are called the "cherubim of glory" (Hebrews 9:5) i.e., of the Shechinah, or cloud of glory, for on them the visible glory of God rested. They were placed one at each end of the mercy-seat, with wings stretched upward, and their faces "toward each other and toward the mercy-seat." They were anointed with holy oil, like the ark itself and the other sacred furniture. The cherubim were symbolical. They were intended to represent spiritual existences in immediate contact with Jehovah. Some have regarded them as symbolical of the chief ruling power by which God carries on his operations in providence (Psalms 18:10) Others interpret them as having reference to the redemption of men, and as symbolizing the great rulers or ministers of the church. Many other opinions have been held regarding them which need not be referred to here. On the whole, it seems to be most satisfactory to regard the interpretation of the symbol to be variable, as is the symbol itself. Their office was,

1. on the expulsion of our first parents from Eden, to prevent all access to the tree of life; and

2. to form the throne and chariot of Jehovah in his manifestation of himself on earth. He dwelleth between and sitteth on the cherubim (1 Samuel 4:4; Psalms 80:1; Ezekiel 1:26,28)

(See ANGEL)

Easton's Bible Dictionary

The following is the results of your search for ANGEL.

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Angel: A word signifying, both in the Hebrew and Greek, a "messenger," and hence employed to denote any agent God sends forth to execute his purposes. It is used of an ordinary messenger (Job 1:14; 1 Samuel 11:3) (Luke 7:24; 9:52) of prophets (Isaiah 42:19; Haggai 1:13) of priests (Malachi 2:7) and ministers of the New Testament (Revelation 1:20) It is also applied to such impersonal agents as the pestilence (2 Samuel 24:16,17) (2 Kings 19:35) the wind (Psalms 104:4) But its distinctive application is to certain heavenly intelligences whom God employs in carrying on his government of the world. The name does not denote their nature but their office as messengers. The appearances to Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18:2,22) Comp. (Genesis 19:1) to Jacob at Peniel (Genesis 32:24,30) to Joshua at Gilgal (Joshua 5:13,15) of the Angel of the Lord, were doubtless manifestations of the Divine presence, "foreshadowings of the incarnation," revelations before the "fulness of the time" of the Son of God.

1. The existence and orders of angelic beings can only be discovered from the Scriptures. Although the Bible does not treat of this subject specially, yet there are numerous incidental details that furnish us with ample information. Their personal existence is plainly implied in such passages as

(Genesis 16:7,10,11; Judges 13:1-21; Matthew 28:2-5; Hebrews 1:4) etc. These superior beings are very numerous. "Thousand thousands," etc.

(Daniel 7:10; Matthew 26:53; Luke 2:13; Hebrews 12:22,23) They are also spoken of as of different ranks in dignity and power

(Zechariah 1:9,11; Daniel 10:13; 12:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Jude 1:9; Ephesians 1:21; Colossians 1:16)

2. As to their nature, they are spirits (Hebrews 1:14) like the soul of man, but not incorporeal. Such expressions as "like the angels"

(Luke 20:36) and the fact that whenever angels appeared to man it was always in a human form (Genesis 18:2; 19:1,10; Luke 24:4; Acts 1:10) and the titles that are applied to them of God,") (Job 1:6; 38:7)

(Daniel 3:25) comp. (Daniel 3:28) and to men (Luke 3:38) seem all to indicate some resemblance between them and the human race. Imperfection is ascribed to them as creatures (Job 4:18)

(Matthew 24:36; 1 Peter 1:12) As finite creatures they may fall under temptation; and accordingly we read of "fallen angels." Of the cause and manner of their "fall" we are wholly ignorant. We know only that "they left their first estate" (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:7,9) and that they are "reserved unto judgement" (2 Peter 2:4) When the manna is called "angels' food," this is merely to denote its excellence (Psalms 78:25) Angels never die (Luke 20:36) They are possessed of superhuman intelligence and power (Mark 13:32)

(2 Thessalonians 1:7; Psalms 103:20) They are called "holy" (Luke 9:26) "elect" (1 Timothy 5:21) The redeemed in glory are "like unto the angels" (Luke 20:36) They are not to be worshipped (Colossians 2:18)

(Revelation 19:10)

3. Their functions are manifold. a. In the widest sense they are agents of God's providence

(Exodus 12:23; Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 11:28; 1 Corinthians 10:10; 2 Samuel 24:16; 1 Chronicles 21:16)

(2 Kings 19:35; Acts 12:23) b. They are specially God's agents in carrying on his great work of redemption. There is no notice of angelic appearances to man till after the call of Abraham. From that time onward there are frequent references to their ministry on earth (Genesis 18:1)ff (Genesis 19:1)ff (Genesis 24:7,40)

(Genesis 28:12; 32:1) They appear to rebuke idolatry (Judges 2:1-4) to call Gideon (Judges 6:11,12) and to consecrate Samson

(Judges 13:3) In the days of the prophets, from Samuel downward, the angels appear only in their behalf

(1 Kings 19:5; 2 Kings 6:17; Zechariah 1:1-6; Daniel 4:13,23; 10:10,13,20,21) The Incarnation introduces a new era in the ministrations of angels. They come with their Lord to earth to do him service while here. They predict his advent (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:26-38) minister to him after his temptation and agony (Matthew 4:11)

(Luke 22:43) and declare his resurrection and ascension

(Matthew 28:2-8; John 20:12,13; Acts 1:10,11) They are now ministering spirits to the people of God (Hebrews 1:14; Psalms 34:7)

(Psalms 91:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 5:19; 8:26; 10:3; 12:7; 27:23) They rejoice over a penitent sinner (Luke 15:10) They bear the souls of the redeemed to paradise (Luke 16:22) and they will be the ministers of judgement hereafter on the great day (Matthew 13:39,41,49; 16:27; 24:31) The passages (Psalms 34:7)

(Matthew 18:10) usually referred to in support of the idea that every individual has a particular guardian angel have no such meaning. They merely indicate that God employs the ministry of angels to deliver his people from affliction and danger, and that the angels do not think it below their dignity to minister even to children and to the least among Christ's disciples. The "angel of his presence" (Isaiah 63:9) Comp.

(Exodus 23:20,21; 32:34; 33:2; Numbers 20:16) is probably rightly interpreted of the Messiah as the guide of his people. Others have supposed the expression to refer to Gabriel

(Luke 1:19)

(See CHERUB)

(See SERAPHIM)

from http://bible.christiansunite.com/est.cgi?a...amp;terms=ANGEL

[MaidservantX]

I think in LDS "angel" is not considered to be another type of creature (other than God or humans). I always immediately translate "angel" to "messenger" in my mind -- "angel" bespeaks of the job someone is doing more than what they are.

[CrimsonKairos]

Here's a definition from D&C 129:1-3

There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

When the majority of Christians speak of angels, they usually mean spirit beings or messengers. However, the Lord here teaches that angels are resurrected beings with glorified bodies (to whichever degree that may be).

[LukeAir2006]

[JcDean78]

You are absoultly right, I had not thought about that. However I have never seen it taught in class or brought up. When the issue has been brought up by Non LDS many times, I have always responded that Angels are the children of God and that Satan is a fallen Angel which is valid even without the further revelation that we have. When speaking to a non member, they do not want LDS references but rather New and Old T refs.

[LukeAir2006]

:)

[tiancum]

Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven.

Yes, every one of us. I also believe that Lucifer was our brother, but he gave up his birthright. He is now Satan, an is not our brother. According to the basic doctrine stated above, the requirement for brotherhood is being born. Satan gave that up. Birthright has a double meaning there. H literally gave up his right to be born, and gave up his sonhood. He severed all ties with deity, including family. He does not fulfill the Basic requirements for sonhood in Gospel principles.

also did you notice the wording set forth in Gospel Principles?

Satan, who was called Lucifer....

Anyway something to chew on.

[CrimsonKairos]

Lucifer means "Son of the Morning" or "Shining One."

He's not called Lucifer anymore because he no longer shines. That's all. He's still our spirit brother. His rebellion in heaven didn't undo his spirit birth.