Was Joseph really sold by his brothers?

[carlimac]

I've been taught and believed my whole life that's what happened to the Joseph of colorful coat fame. But lo and behold, as I read the scriptures to prepare my primary lesson, I find out that's not how the story goes. In the real bible version brothers throw know-it-all, daddy's favorite, little brother in pit. Then some Midianites find Joseph, drag him out of the pit and sell him to some Ishmeelites who take him to Egypt. In the mean time, the brothers decide they could make some money off Joseph. So Rueben goes back to the pit and finds Joseph missing so he runs back to tell his brothers. So they then dip the coat in blood so they have a believable story to tell their dad.

What am I missing? It never says the brothers actually sold him because the Midianites found him and sold him to the Ishmaelites first. Genesis 37:18-32

[Lakumi]

At first glance at the title I thought you were talking about a completely different Joseph lol

[Palerider]

At first glance at the title I thought you were talking about a completely different Joseph lol

Come on....get with the program.......Lol

[Wingnut]

This question came up in Gospel Doctrine a few weeks ago in my ward.  I too had never noticed it before, but as I read it carefully, it felt to me that it was just an overly complicated translation.  Here is the text from the KJV, with the parts in question bolded by me:

 

 

18 And when they saw him afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.

 

 19 And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.

 

 20 Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.

 

 21 And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill him.

 

 22 And Reuben said unto them, Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit that is in the wilderness, and lay no hand upon him; that he might rid him out of their hands, to deliver him to his father again.

 

 23 And it came to pass, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they stript Joseph out of his coat, his coat of many colours that was on him;

 

 24 And they took him, and cast him into a pit: and the pit was empty, there was no water in it.

 

 25 And they sat down to eat bread: and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a company of Ishmeelites came from Gilead with their camels bearing spicery and balm and myrrh, going to carry it down to Egypt.

 

 26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?

 

 27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.

 

 28 Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.

 

 29 And Reuben returned unto the pit; and, behold, Joseph was not in the pit; and he rent his clothes.

 

 30 And he returned unto his brethren, and said, The child isanot; and I, whither shall I go?

 

 31 And they took Joseph’s coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood;

 

 32 And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son’s coat or no.

 

I think verse 28 could instead be rendered:
 

 

Then there passed by merchantmen; and Joseph's brothers drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and the Ishmeelites brought Joseph into Egypt.

[carlimac]

So who were the Midianites? Why did Reuben return to the pit and why was he surprised that Joseph wasn't in the pit?

[pam]

My understanding of this story over the years was that Reuben had planned on getting Joseph out of the pit and taking him back to his father after attempting to talk his brothers into just putting him there.

 

He had nothing to do with selling Joseph and was surprised that Joseph wasn't in the pit when he went to get him.

[carlimac]

Does anyone know if the Midianites were the Ishmaelites? Just another name of reference to the one group of travelers? So there weren't two groups of travelers? That would make more sense.

[carlimac]

So, just for information's sake, I just read three other translations of this story - The New International Version, The Living Bible and The Revised Standard Version. All three say that "they" in the King James Version is the brothers who pulled Joseph out of the well, not the Midianites.  And Reuben was inexplicably away at the time that Joseph was sold.

 

I've never delved into the Bible stories before like I have this year, teaching Primary. Wow, the things you learn as a teacher!

[pam]

I agree with that.  One class I taught for a year went over the parables of Christ.  I really went away with a much better understanding of the parables and what they meant.  I think I learned more than the kids did.

[Quin]

I don't know if I was in a catholic or baptist church at the time, or it's possible it was Judaism (my memories of 6ish are a little hazy in some respects)...

But what I was taught "there" (where, we'll never know, but I attended all 3 regularly at age 6... Heck. Deep South, it could have been in public school) was that

- the brothers en masse threw him in

- that there was discord amongst the brothers (ranging from as Pam said... Reuben wanting to get him out / I thought I recalled Reuban ran to his father for his authority over his brothers / couldn't get to him so came back on his own?... To some wanting to see him die immediately, others suffer, others profit).

The differing opinions of the brothers was hammered into us at the time, because 6yos are the epitome of "mob rule". Our teachers were trying to show us that just because everyone is shouting XYZ, it doesn't mean we have to also shout XYZ. And that if we felt ABC, that the time to speak up and be different is BEFORE the mob has tried to kill our brother, or the slavers have made off with him. Otherwise it's a day late and a dollar short. And God will be very very mad at us. I'm leaning towards thinking it was baptist Sunday school, at this point.

Q

[Just_A_Guy]

Does anyone know if the Midianites were the Ishmaelites? Just another name of reference to the one group of travelers? So there weren't two groups of travelers? That would make more sense.

I wondered about that, but Ishmael was Abraham's son through Hagar. Midian was Abraham's son through Keturah. I don't see how one could say their descendants were one and get same, except perhaps in the general sense of being Abraham's seed yet not the birthright people.

[Wingnut]

I did a Google search yesterday while writing my post above, and I searched this:

are midianites and ishmaelites the same

 

The first hit to show up in the list was a short explanation that verified my personal supposition above, but I didn't link to it because it's a site that contains anti-Mormon information (not on this page or topic, but elsewhere on the site).  If you're interested in reading it though, it's from CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry).  I personally don't feel that the site's anti-Mormon leanings in general relate specifically to its treatment of this particular topic, which made sense to me.  Still though, I won't link to it here because it does contain anti-Mormon information.



(Mods, if you feel that even naming the website is in violation of site rules...obviously, I don't :) ...please feel free to edit this post.)

[Guest]

I've been taught and believed my whole life that's what happened to the Joseph of colorful coat fame. But lo and behold, as I read the scriptures to prepare my primary lesson, I find out that's not how the story goes. In the real bible version brothers throw know-it-all, daddy's favorite, little brother in pit. Then some Midianites find Joseph, drag him out of the pit and sell him to some Ishmeelites who take him to Egypt. In the mean time, the brothers decide they could make some money off Joseph. So Rueben goes back to the pit and finds Joseph missing so he runs back to tell his brothers. So they then dip the coat in blood so they have a believable story to tell their dad.

What am I missing? It never says the brothers actually sold him because the Midianites found him and sold him to the Ishmaelites first. Genesis 37:18-32

 

This is what you're missing:

 

28 Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.

 

 

The "they" in red above does not refer to the Midianites from the phrase before it.  The "they" in red refer to Joseph's brothers in the verse before it.

 

Now, who was Joseph sold to?  The Midianites or the Ishmaelites (lineage from different sons of Abraham)?  Either or.  It doesn't matter.  Because, what we take out of this story is that Joseph was sold by his brothers - to who is not as important.

 

But, we can still delve into who is who just out of curiousity (or to fend off attacks by Bible bashers - this is one of their favorite pursuits, to point out that contradiction of who Joseph got sold to)...

 

My take on the matter... as Ishmael is the oldest son, Midian and Medan tribes may have been referred to collectively as Ishmaelites.  So Ishmaelites is the general term (like saying Filipinos) while Midianites/Medanites is specific term (like saying Cebuano).

[Maureen]

Does anyone know if the Midianites were the Ishmaelites? Just another name of reference to the one group of travelers? So there weren't two groups of travelers? That would make more sense.

Yes, I believe the Midianites were Ishmaelites. From Judges 8:24

 

And Gideon said unto them, I would desire a request of you, that ye would give me every man the earrings of his prey. (For they had golden earrings, because they were Ishmaelites.) (KJV)

 

or from the NET Bible:

 

8:24 Gideon continued, ⁴³  “I would like to make one request. Each of you give me an earring from the plunder you have taken.” ⁴⁴  (The Midianites ⁴⁵  had gold earrings because they were Ishmaelites.) 

 

M.