Sunday21 Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I may be wrong but I think I remember being in a session in which we were instructed that it was not the cases that the most righteous saints were saved for the current day. Does anyone remember this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_urban_legends_or_folklore/Bow_to_those_living_in_Pres_Hinckley's_time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Great job! I knew it! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 To be clear, there are plenty of comments throughout the years at the pulpit, etc., that indicate we were, indeed, saved for the last days. What is being rejected by the church is that it was specifically because we were more righteous. I think that's an interesting topic. The church has also disavowed that blacks did not have the priesthood due to lack of righteousness in the pre-existence. However -- they have not disavowed the idea (I believe) that our pre-existent choices are related to our stations in life. Just that it is not related to the black race not having the priesthood. There are quotes that indicate our choices in the pre-existence do affect our lives here though. “During the ages in which we dwelt in the pre-mortal state we not only developed our various characteristics and showed our worthiness and ability, or the lack of it, but we were also where such progress could be observed. It is reasonable to believe that there was a Church organization there. The heavenly beings were living in a perfectly arranged society. Every person knew his place. Priesthood, without any question, had been conferred and the leaders were chosen to officiate. Ordinances pertaining to that pre-existence were required and the love of God prevailed. Under such conditions it was natural for our Father to discern and choose those who were most worthy and evaluate the talents of each individual. He knew not only what each of us could do, but what each of us would do when put to the test and when responsibility was given us. Then, when the time came for our habitation on mortal earth, all things were prepared and the servants of the Lord chosen and ordained to their respective missions” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 50–51). and “From this revelation [Abraham 3:23], we may infer two things: first, that there were among those spirits [in premortal life] different degrees of intelligence, varying grades of achievement, retarded and advanced spiritual attainment; second, that there were no national distinctions among those spirits such as Americans, Europeans, Asiatics, Australians, etc. Such ‘bounds of habitation’ would have to be ‘determined’ when the spirits entered their earthly existence or second estate. …“Now if none of these spirits were permitted to enter mortality until they all were good and great and had become leaders, then the diversity of conditions among the children of men as we see them today would certainly seem to indicate discrimination and injustice. … “… Our place in this world would then be determined by our own advancement or condition in the pre-mortal state, just as our place in our future existence will be determined by what we do here in mortality. “When, therefore, the Creator said to Abraham, and to others of his attainment, ‘You I will make my rulers,’ there could exist no feeling of envy or jealousy among the million other spirits, for those who were ‘good and great’ were but receiving their just reward” (David O. McKay, Home Memories of President David O. McKay, 228–30). I wonder what the church's current doctrinal stand on these is. Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 But see Pres. Benson's sermon at BYU, here. I don't think one has to discard it--or the sources TFP cites--to pooh-pooh the idea put forward in the bogus Packer quote. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 It's right at the start, but here's the applicable quote, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong JAG), for those who don't have the time to read the entire thing. Awesome talk btw. "For nearly six thousand years, God has held you in reserve to make your appearance in the final days before the Second Coming of the Lord. Every previous gospel dispensation has drifted into apostasy, but ours will not. True, there will be some individuals who will fall away; but the kingdom of God will remain intact to welcome the return of its head—even Jesus Christ. While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time. It is that God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God." Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 To be clear, there are plenty of comments throughout the years at the pulpit, etc., that indicate we were, indeed, saved for the last days. What is being rejected by the church is that it was specifically because we were more righteous. I think that's an interesting topic. The church has also disavowed that blacks did not have the priesthood due to lack of righteousness in the pre-existence. However -- they have not disavowed the idea (I believe) that our pre-existent choices are related to our stations in life. Just that it is not related to the black race not having the priesthood. ... I wonder what the church's current doctrinal stand on these is. The quotes are still included in the current online teachers manual for the Old Testament (and, what's more, the video supplement contains the disavowed teaching applied generally (where it's safe I guess) and not specifically). https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-06-2130-foreordained?category=new-testament/acts-revelation&〈=eng&order=chronological The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classylady Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 It's right at the start, but here's the applicable quote, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong JAG), for those who don't have the time to read the entire thing. Awesome talk btw. "It is that God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God." The quote says some of his strongest children are saved for the final inning. I believe in the doctrine of foreordination. Those who are foreordained to be leaders in the church most likely were some of God's strongest children. But, were all of us? Some of us, perhaps, but all? As I learn about my family history, and as the Spirit of Elijah grows stronger in me, I see my ancestors and all other humans, as being necessary to eventually get to where we are: The Fullness of Times. Throughout all the ages of the earth good Spirits would have been needed to come to earth to help fulfill God's will. To say that earlier generations were not as righteous as us in the preexistence, sounds a little prideful. I believe our early ancestors were foreordained to come to earth at the time they did to help further God's plan. I don't believe they were all less righteous Spirits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 To say that earlier generations were not as righteous as us in the preexistence, sounds a little prideful. I don't disagree with your overall thought. All generations had righteous souls foreordained to that time. What I don't agree with is the idea that if we understood an ancestor to be less righteous that it makes us prideful, whether that was in the pre-existence or not. If someone was less stalwart then they were less stalwart. It has nothing to do with pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I don't disagree with your overall thought. All generations had righteous souls foreordained to that time. What I don't agree with is the idea that if we understood an ancestor to be less righteous that it makes us prideful, whether that was in the pre-existence or not. If someone was less stalwart then they were less stalwart. It has nothing to do with pride. The Pride would be in judging or assume that someone is lesser... Simply because they were born at a different time. Clearly the very stalwart have been in all times (Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, Christ, to name a few) and the less Stalwarts have also been in all times. Now if you have details of particular ancestor, then you might be able to pull off a Righteous Judgment on their Stalwartness based on those details. But that would be an exceptional case not the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 The Pride would be in judging or assume that someone is lesser... Simply because they were born at a different time. Clearly the very stalwart have been in all times (Adam, Enoch, Noah, Moses, Christ, to name a few) and the less Stalwarts have also been in all times. Now if you have details of particular ancestor, then you might be able to pull off a Righteous Judgment on their Stalwartness based on those details. But that would be an exceptional case not the rule. It would be a sorely mistaken misunderstanding of a teaching yes. But that doesn't mean that the mistaken understanding is rooted in pride. My contention is that is someone believes the false quote as noted in the FAIR link to be a true statement, it doesn't automatically translate to pride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classylady Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I agree about the word "pride". I was searching for a better term to use, and couldn't think of one. I wasn't happy with the word pride either. But, didn't know how else to convey what I was saying. Edit: In my old age, I'm finding it harder and harder to remember words, or think of the right word. lol I laugh at myself, but it truly is becoming a fact. I worry I'm getting Alzheimer's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I agree about the word "pride". I was searching for a better term to use, and couldn't think of one. I wasn't happy with the word pride either. But, didn't know how else to convey what I was saying. Edit: In my old age, I'm finding it harder and harder to remember words, or think of the right word. lol I laugh at myself, but it truly is becoming a fact. I worry I'm getting Alzheimer's. Here's my solution: http://thesaurus.com/ Who needs to remember words anymore? Or spelling? Or memorize scriptures...or memorize anything. The Inter-web does all the thinking for us nowadays! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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