The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 The decision to HAVE them may not be. But the decision on WHEN is. I disagree. As long as we're clear on the word "should". They should not be. When to have children is when you're married. It is everyone's right to determine otherwise. But that's the "should" of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 You're a candidate for a one-year trip to the Philippines...I spent 2 yrs in a third world country, I know what true poverty is. Suzie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 It is for both men and women, that's why I mentioned hormones. But geez. Let's think with our brains a bit. If God wanted us to think with our brains he wouldn't have given us...wait...nevermind. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Mission? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 If God wanted us to think with our brains he wouldn't have given us...wait...nevermind. LOL!! TMI for my LDS ears ....but wait...Mormons have plenty children. Windseeker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I have only 1 measure for preparedness... The strength of one's commitment to COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE SELFLESS SERVICE at 10. Both individuals getting married have to have this level of preparedness. Running water not necessary. I think I agree with anatess...but qualitying it a bit, and not quite so extreme on the 10 side. If 10 is all the way then that implies selfless perfection, which is certainly not required before marriage. Come on anatess, certainly you can't believe that we must be perfectly selfless or we should not get married. :) But in principle, yes...sort of...I think. Maybe 2 and 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I disagree. As long as we're clear on the word "should". They should not be. When to have children is when you're married. It is everyone's right to determine otherwise. But that's the "should" of it. Okay, I get you. I agree. And thinking of this... if Suzie's point about meeting basic needs was to support the CHILDREN... then I can see her point too. But just supporting one's self in general, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I think I agree with anatess...but qualitying it a bit, and not quite so extreme on the 10 side. If 10 is all the way then that implies selfless perfection, which is certainly not required before marriage. Come on anatess, certainly you can't believe that we must be perfectly selfless or we should not get married. :) But in principle, yes...sort of...I think. Maybe 2 and 8. TFP... Commitment to it. Commitment has to be a 10... having achieved it may be a 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I spent 2 yrs in a third world country, I know what true poverty is. But that's not why I want you to spend a year in the Philippines. I want you to spend a year in the Philippines so you can learn how to live frugally. Because, I guarantee you, after a year, you will feel $20K is a lot of money to live on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Wait...let me ask you directly...to understand you better: Do you think it is okay for a couple who is unable to meet their basic needs to pursue marriage knowing their financial situation? (Not enough money to cover basic things such as food, shelter and clothing) See my answer to Backroad's question on measure of Preparedness. If that's met, then there is no reason to wait to get married. Now, my question to you... What do you think will cause their already dismal financial future to decline if they got married? How does being married prevent it from getting better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 But that's not why I want you to spend a year in the Philippines. I want you to spend a year in the Philippines so you can learn how to live frugally. Because, I guarantee you, after a year, you will feel $20K is a lot of money to live on.I know what it takes to live in a 3rd world country, and I know that 20k is a lot of money on a relative scale in those countries, but we are not talking about the Philippines or Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I know what it takes to live in a 3rd world country, and I know that 20k is a lot of money on a relative scale in those countries, but we are not talking about the Philippines or Mexico. No we're not. But there are TONS of American things you think you need but you don't and tons of American waste that you don't realize. These things are ingrained in the everyday American lifestyle... For example - ziploc bags. Sooo American. $20K will not be enough if you live the $50K lifestyle. $20K is enough to live a $20K lifestyle. Two different things. Both possible. Both comfortable. Both in America. But, you won't know what you can live without until you live without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 No we're not. But there are TONS of American things you think you need but you don't and tons of American waste that you don't realize. These things are ingrained in the everyday American lifestyle... For example - ziploc bags. Sooo American. $20K will not be enough if you live the $50K lifestyle. $20K is enough to live a $20K lifestyle. Two different things. Both possible. Both comfortable. Both in America. But, you won't know what you can live without until you live without it.In your mind how do you picture Americans serving foreign missions live? Do you think the American Missionaries are given more money than their native companions so that they can live their American lifestyle? I can assure you its gets native very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdfxdb Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 No we're not. But there are TONS of American things you think you need but you don't and tons of American waste that you don't realize. These things are ingrained in the everyday American lifestyle... For example - ziploc bags. Sooo American. $20K will not be enough if you live the $50K lifestyle. $20K is enough to live a $20K lifestyle. Two different things. Both possible. Both comfortable. Both in America. But, you won't know what you can live without until you live without it.It is the conveniences we enjoy as Americans that free us up to pursue wealth. You will never have enough if you spend more than you make. But in America a $20K lifestyle with a wife and kids is not self-sufficient, even if you eliminate the ziploc bags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 TFP... Commitment to it. Commitment has to be a 10... having achieved it may be a 0. *shrug* It still implied perfect commitment to it. I'm sticking with 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 *shrug* It still implied perfect commitment to it. I'm sticking with 8. I require a 10. Divorce is not an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 But in America a $20K lifestyle with a wife and kids is not self-sufficient 20k is self-sufficient if it is (circular logic, I know, but the best way I could think to make my point). You can't put a number on self-sufficient. Use anatess's build your home for nothing video as an example. There are, without a doubt, a multitude of ways to be self-sufficient on 20k. And most of them don't involve building a solar powered cabin in the middle of nowhere. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 In your mind how do you picture Americans serving foreign missions live? Do you think the American Missionaries are given more money than their native companions so that they can live their American lifestyle? I can assure you its gets native very quickly. I spent time with American missionaries serving in the Philippines. These missionaries I met tend to put their missionary experience in a bubble. They live the Filipino life under the care of their Mission Presidents and the Ward and see their lives in dire straits not as everyday life but as a sacrifice dedicated to the Lord's service. They get their packages from their parents with their candy bars and white shirts and sturdy shoes reminding them of home and spring right back to the American lifestyle when they get back making their lifestyle in the Philippines a conversation piece. 2 of them live in my ward here in Florida. They all don't feel anything when they throw out ziploc bags... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I require a 10. Divorce is not an option. You're changing your parameters. Originally, "...commitment to COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE SELFLESS SERVICE ". Now you're talking commitment to the marriage. Per your altered parameter, I agree. 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 I spent time with American missionaries serving in the Philippines. These missionaries I met tend to put their missionary experience in a bubble. They live the Filipino life under the care of their Mission Presidents and the Ward and see their lives in dire straits not as everyday life but as a sacrifice dedicated to the Lord's service. They get their packages from their parents with their candy bars and white shirts and sturdy shoes reminding them of home and spring right back to the American lifestyle when they get back making their lifestyle in the Philippines a conversation piece. 2 of them live in my ward here in Florida. They all don't feel anything when they throw out ziploc bags... And, we save up our extra money that our parents sent us and buy CDs (hopefully approved ones), new shirts, souvenirs, and A&W root beer from the specialty store (what a glorious day that was). We also bought a gallon of ice cream (per missionary) every P-day and lived off of soda when proselyting (whereas we couldn't drink the water and soda was "cheap"). Yeah...Americans...not spoiled at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 You're changing your parameters. Originally, "...commitment to COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE SELFLESS SERVICE ". Now you're talking commitment to the marriage. Per your altered parameter, I agree. 10. Eternal Marriage = COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE SELFLESS SERVICE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Eternal Marriage = COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE SELFLESS SERVICE Sure. Absolutely agree. Eventually. It's a lifelong effort to get there though. Okay...so I get you. 10 for commitment to COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE SELFLESS SERVICE. Though I'm still iffy on "requirement" for it, as I know, for example, that my parents were NOT there when they got married, and spent years and years and years...well...they're still working through it. But they have a good marriage and are continually making it better and better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 And, we save up our extra money that our parents sent us and buy CDs (hopefully approved ones), new shirts, souvenirs, and A&W root beer from the specialty store (what a glorious day that was). We also bought a gallon of ice cream (per missionary) every P-day and lived off of soda when proselyting (whereas we couldn't drink the water and soda was "cheap"). Yeah...Americans...not spoiled at all... Yes typically parents would send extra money to the American Missionaries however this was not my experience, I got the same as my native companions no extra was sent as my parents had several missionaries out at the same time. I never viewed my life in dire straits, I accepted that this was how people lived and how I needed to live if I wanted to get along and relate to the people I was trying to teach. It grinds on the native companions when the Americans get a huge care package from home. I also makes them difficult to relate to, I attribute part of the success of my mission to being able to be an equal with my companions and the people of that country. I was fortunate enough to be in a position during a period on my mission in which I could see how others chose to serve, and the varying degree of success they had based on their attitudes towards the people of that country. That said this is why personal experience does not work well in these instances because everyone has such a varied experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 20k is self-sufficient if it is (circular logic, I know, but the best way I could think to make my point). You can't put a number on self-sufficient. Use anatess's build your home for nothing video as an example. There are, without a doubt, a multitude of ways to be self-sufficient on 20k. And most of them don't involve building a solar powered cabin in the middle of nowhere. Now this involves many "ifs"... No debt (including car and home--the latter especially would free up much money) Ability to make many of your own things. General smart frugality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 30, 2014 Report Share Posted July 30, 2014 Now this involves many "ifs"... No debt (including car and home--the latter especially would free up much money) Ability to make many of your own things. General smart frugality. All things we are counselled to do by our leaders. Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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