Evidences Of The Great Apostasy

[prisonchaplain]

I'd humbly suggest that Jason is right. It does occasionally happen that a believer stumbles into sin and becomes so enthralled with the new-found fun, that s/he abandons the faith. More often, the believer discontinues believing. Left without any spiritual authority for the values held, the disbeliever is left to reconsider what is right and what is wrong. Quite often, much that had been wrong becomes "no big deal." Those who remain in the faith see the new "sinful deeds" and quickly conclude "S/he left to sin."

[the Ogre]

I would answer like PC did. Thank you for your thoughts P.C. :)

I'm glad you would answer like PC did, but were those answers or simplistic reversals? If G-d has spoken to humanity in more than the cannon, where is it? And if the cannon is enough, then how do we treat contemporay issues that might not be mentioned directly or clearly. And then how do we deal with the contradictions.

Silence?

I'm glad you are satisfied with an appearant silence from heaven. I wonder if he is satidfied with how modern events are unrolling. He always had something to comment in the past, why would he ignore us now.

And: oh yeah, we are still living in a period apostasy, a period of silence, and a period of deafness (present company accepted of course).

[Dr T]

Hi Ogre,

I'm glad you're here. Like I said, I don't think there was a complete apostasy. The Bible talks about "some" falling away from the truth but a remnant of believes will always be present. It was not until recently that I heard someone say that it was not a complete apostasy. If not complete why need a restoration? I have heard it say, when the Apostles died, then there was no true church. No true church, means no real believers. The church was gone. Like I said, Mat. 16:18 shows the church will not fail because Jesus will be faithful and keep his church.

With regard to being silent, I don't think he his. Like I talked about in another thread (or maybe it was this one) but has given believers authority (without necessarily laying on of hands) as God indwells us as read in 1 Cor. 12:14-20. Since Jesus has all authority or power in heaven and Earth, Matthew 28:18 and Christian believes have authority/power as seen in John 1:12 by believing in his name then I think he speaks to us and we are able to bear witness. We are made new in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) and receive authority (again John 1:12) and become part of the holy priesthood of believers as seen in 1 Peter 2:5-9. This authority is not only mine but is derived from Christ; we serve by the authority of Christ, who dells in us by faith. God is not silent, like I've said.

[vinny15]

Oh Im not saying that people always leave because of sin. Im sorry I didnt clarify. THough there is a large percent I know.

I know people leave because of theology. Its a sad fact, but its true.

I asked yu Jason because it seemd to fit because your arguments seemed vague and didnt quite sound logical.

NO offence intended I just didnt understand them. It might be me.

Im not gonna post hear anymore, but I want to say that I know that the gospel of christ is true and upon this earht.

I know Im a part of it and that all tongues will here his word.

I cant deny it. I could be tortured and still not deny the truthfullness prophesed in the bible and the BoM.

Amen.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm glad you would answer like PC did,

Me too. PC's answer was really intelligent, insightful, and nicely put.

but were those answers or simplistic reversals?

If you truly were glad that Dr. T. answered the way that PC did, then you would have to conclude that they were answers.

If G-d has spoken to humanity in more than the cannon, where is it?

He did so through the gift of teachers, preachers, evangelists, missionaries, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and through the anointing of the Holy Spirit any believer who reads the Word can receive.

And if the cannon is enough, then how do we treat contemporay issues that might not be mentioned directly or clearly. And then how do we deal with the contradictions.

We study the Bible, we pray, we listen to those gifted to teach/preach, and we seek guidance from "the still small voice of the Holy Spirit."

Silence?

No Christian church argues that God is silent.

I'm glad you are satisfied with an appearant silence from heaven.

No, you're not. You're disappointed. You're hoping that we hunger for more revelation. However, we do not believe that God has ever been silent, nor that He is today.

And: oh yeah, we are still living in a period apostasy, a period of silence, and a period of deafness (present company accepted of course).

Remember...we don't believe in the Apostasy, nor the period of silence. However, if there was an apostasy, such would be indicated through false teaching, not silence. An apostate is one who left the faith, not one who sought, but never heard God (an impossibility, since God promises to answer all who seek Him).

[Dr T]

Again, great answer P.C. I also appreciated the humor ("really intelligent, insightful, and nicely put")

[Traveler]

I would add something else to the concept of Apostasy. That is someone that can say with authority that they were sent by G-d to deliver a message. But there is a problem - if there is no apostasy what would be the need for someone to come to bring a message with authority?

When someone speaks with authority the saints of G-d will gather or the non-saints will be warned. The warning of our age and time concerns family. Many say they believe in marriage before G-d and the family but only those that respond to the servants sent by G-d will be safe.

As I see it there are only a few possibilities:

1. One is that you believe G-d has sent and will send us authorized help.

2. That we really do not need help - we have made such advancements and are so smart we can figure it out on our own.

3. There are many servants and though they disagree we can trust them all.

4. There is no G-d and none of this really matters anyway.

I believe that the end of time - before the coming of the L-rd is the most critical time for humans to prepare in history and I do not believe that G-d expects us to prepare with living examples.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Those are not the only options. God did send helpers-Jesus and the Holy SPirit. They communicate and enlighten. We don't need anyone else but as P.C. said, there are gifted teachers, etc. that can assist. God has given true believers all the authority we need.

[prisonchaplain]

3. There are many servants and though they disagree we can trust them all.

The Traveler

I can worship, enjoying the communion of the saints in most any Christian church. I've worshipped with Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Salvationists, Charismatics, non-denominationalists, and even Catholics. Perhaps the height of my experiences was at the Promise Keepers rally in Oct. 97--a million men from all of these churches, and more. Koreans, African-Americans, Native Americans, Messianic Jewish believers--with theologies that ranged from fundamental to semi-modernist--all in one accord.

When edit to your choice though--we don't "trust them all." We trust God. Like the Bereans of the NT era, we search the Scriptures, precept upon precept, regardless of who the teacher might be.

[vinny15]

Jason,

After much thought I found that I agree ith you somewhat.

I believe that the righteous to somewhat good will recieve a glory. I forgot that I have always known that because it is a teaching in the churhc.

Of coarse the evill folks will recieve the lowest glory or become a son of perdition.

I know that the peple that have tried there best and that wouldve recieved the gospel if they had adequite teaching of it wouldve recieved the gospel in full, that they will go to the celestial glroy.

So good thoughts Jason. Keep it up!

P.S. It still isnt that easy to get into the the celestial glory, but you are definately on the right track. :)

[Jason]

Jason,

After much thought I found that I agree ith you somewhat.

I believe that the righteous to somewhat good will recieve a glory. I forgot that I have always known that because it is a teaching in the churhc.

Of coarse the evill folks will recieve the lowest glory or become a son of perdition.

I know that the peple that have tried there best and that wouldve recieved the gospel if they had adequite teaching of it wouldve recieved the gospel in full, that they will go to the celestial glroy.

So good thoughts Jason. Keep it up!

P.S. It still isnt that easy to get into the the celestial glory, but you are definately on the right track. :)

Ok vinny. So basically what I'm saying is that if you're destined for the Terrestrial Kingdom or the Telestial Kingdom, and you don't like it there, then you can choose to come back to earth, and try again.

Isn't that good news?

[CrimsonKairos]

You couldn't pay me to come back to mortality a second time.

Shoot, even if all I inherit is telestial glory, it's gotta' be better than this!!!

[vinny15]

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Jason,

After much thought I found that I agree ith you somewhat.

I believe that the righteous to somewhat good will recieve a glory. I forgot that I have always known that because it is a teaching in the churhc.

Of coarse the evill folks will recieve the lowest glory or become a son of perdition.

I know that the peple that have tried there best and that wouldve recieved the gospel if they had adequite teaching of it wouldve recieved the gospel in full, that they will go to the celestial glroy.

So good thoughts Jason. Keep it up!

P.S. It still isnt that easy to get into the the celestial glory, but you are definately on the right track. :)

Ok vinny. So basically what I'm saying is that if you're destined for the Terrestrial Kingdom or the Telestial Kingdom, and you don't like it there, then you can choose to come back to earth, and try again.

Isn't that good news?

Oh yes. Thats definately good news.

I cant know that its true though. LIke I dont get a very good feeling about it.

Ive thought the same thing before. Ive actually heard from missionaries that eventually everyone might make it to the celestial kingdom, but it takes a lot. It is so much harder if you dont just decide to now.

I know that in the spirit world we recieve anothere chance and that we will here the gospel in fullness..

To me if you reject it than, than you have problems lol and arent a worthy spirit.

I would just do my best now and try not to worry about having to come back to this hell lol.

Joseph smith said the lowest glory was enough for us to kill ourselves and go there now lol.

P.S. I do see were your coming from and it does make sense, but only to an extant. Like analogies. We need to find a middle ground because god isnt mercifull with no strictness and he isnt strct with no mercy.

So you are right to an extant. :)

[Jason]

You couldn't pay me to come back to mortality a second time.

Shoot, even if all I inherit is telestial glory, it's gotta' be better than this!!!

Haha.

Well, in my way of thinking, it isn't really an option. You come back over and over until you get it right. I was just trying to help vinny understand where I was coming from.

Besides, Apostle Orson Hyde and Eliza R. Snow both believed in reincarnation, so there were some Mormons who felt as I believe.

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah, but how credible were they? (yes, I'm joking) B)

[vinny15]

I guess I kinda believe in it to an extant. It seems like a possibility I guess.

The church took a stance.

http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem..._&hideNav=1

You are DEFINATELY half way there. :)

[CrimsonKairos]

I haven't found any scriptural support for reincarnation.

In fact, just the opposite: Once you've had an honest-to-gosh-genuine-and-real chance to accept the gospel and live its precepts, that's it. You either live it or leave it.

I'd be open to reviewing any scriptural support for your belief in reincarnation, though, Jason.

[Dr T]

"It is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment." That doesn't sound reincarnation-like but I haven't looked into that verse to see what it's all about.

[vinny15]

Youll see in the link I gave you that he speaks of similarities in more that one life I.E. premortal, mortal, spirit world, exaltation.

He does say that there is no scriptural support for reincarnation though (atleast the traditional view of it)

I love how you think though Jason. Its very just. :)

Thanks,

Mike.

[CrimsonKairos]

Jason has his moments...sometimes... B)

[the Ogre]

No Christian church argues that God is silent.

However, we do not believe that God has ever been silent, nor that He is today.

I'm sorry I could not read on yesterday, but looking into the statements you made yesterday I think the two above need consideration. I am not ignoring the other statements you made, rather I either do not have an opinion, they simply do not apply to the current discussion, or I agree, so please do not feel I am leaving them out spitefully.

The first thing I would like to point out is the audacity of saying no "Christian church argues that G[-]d is silent" on an LDS site. Are you one who claims Latter-Day Saints are not Christians?

Second: the second line contradicts the original about Christian consensus regarding the silence from heaven. Oh, I understand what you are saying about personal revelation, the roles of teachers, evangelists, and the righteous in general, but what about leadership from heaven for all humanity? Has the Christian Canon been updated by more than just Latter-Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses and the number of modernized translations of the canon? Please let me know where I can go for modern revelation regarding racism, middle-class oppression of women, minorities, and the poor and hate-speech? I know where to find references to all those in the NT and OT, but what about when it is okay to wage war and when it is not? Oh and what about if G-d just wanted to say pay attention to a few finer points?

What if G-d wanted to say WATCH OUT FOR DRUGS, smoking is kinda stupid, alcohol often leads to problems in the home, abuse, and disease, and to tell women that Paul might have gotten it wrong about speaking in church? Or that he was simply a man of his times and that the times have changed?

There are hundreds of reasons to receive modern revelation beyond what I have listed here that might not have been contemporary issues in the first century Mediterranean Rim. I'm sure G-d would have things to say, but for some reason the Christian consensus is that heaven is silent and that those who believe otherwise are not Christians and thus heretics.

I'm sure you did not mean any of the above and that actually most likely we are all Christians (except for Jason the follower of John Hick) and as Christians we ought to be united in an effort to help the world better itself and claw itself out of the pit it is digging for itself.

I certainly hope this is the case. I'm sure you do as well.

[Jason]

On Christian reincarnation, I'm just gonna give you a nice link that has a few short articles you can browse. Click on the "scriptural support" link to get to the stuff you might actually believe.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html

[CrimsonKairos]

Most of the scriptural evidence cited does more to establish the doctrine of premortality than reincarnation...in my opinion. Which I know you don't share. Thanks for following up with a link though. Interesting reading.

[evilservant]

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Gnosticism was around during the lives of the Apostles. 1 John was written to address that concept in the church. As far as splitting from Catholicism, the LDS church has also split. What does that mean?

What are you talking about that the LDS church also split. The LDS church didn't split off of anybody. The LDS church is a restorationist church, we did not split off of anybody. But then again, I could be wrong.

No you're not wrong. The LDS church didn't split from anyone. There have been splinter groups from the LDS church..RLDS, Strangites etc. That was brought about because of the death of Joseph Smith and the confusion over who then had the authority to lead the church. Emma and the Smith family thought it was Joseph's son, Joseph III, James Strang thought he had authority etc. Sidney Rigdon thought as a member of the First presidency he should be President, and then there was ol' Brigham Y, president of the Quorum of the Twelve. Bruce.

[vinny15]

Jason. I love that link. It was very well rounded. Though te scriptures he cited seem to have either nothing to do with resurection or reincarnation or its speaking of the multiple lives we have (premortal, mortal, post mortal, exaltaion.)