Lesson 15 (Eternal Marriage) questions

[garryw]

I'm teaching EQ lesson 15 this sunday and I've come up with a list of questions on the topic.  I don't intend to actually use these questions during the lesson because I prefer to stick to the basics for better or worse.  However I'd thought these would be interesting if they pop up.

 

 

"the covenant of eternal marriage is one of the greatest and most mandatory" - lesson 15 JFS manual

 

"There is no ordinance connected with the Gospel of Jesus Christ of greater importance, of more solemn and sacred nature, and more necessary" - lesson 15 JFS manual

 

 

1.  How did Jesus and the Holy Ghost become gods without marriage ordinance?  Assuming ( I think correctly) they were gods prior to the birth of Jesus before which he couldn't get married.

 

2. Why is there so little mention of this "mandatory" and "necessary" ordinance in the BoM and Bible?  Are there "hidden" scriptures in these books which imply marriage is required?

 

3.  The million dollar question: Was Jesus married? 

 

4.  Besides the blessing of procreation, why is marriage required for exaltation?  Or is procreation the key to exaltation?

 

5.  Which dispensaitons had eternal marriage and which dispensations did not have eternal marriage?  How do we know?

 

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

1.  How did Jesus and the Holy Ghost become gods without marriage ordinance?  Assuming ( I think correctly) they were gods prior to the birth of Jesus before which he couldn't get married.

 

I think this gets into a semantic debate pretty easy. I think you could search high and low and you would not find any scriptures or other sources that state that marriage is required for godhood. What marriage is required for is the highest degree of the Celestial glory/exaltation. But, clearly, godhood is broader than that in some ways.

 

2. Why is there so little mention of this "mandatory" and "necessary" ordinance in the BoM and Bible?  Are there "hidden" scriptures in these books which imply marriage is required?

 

Who cares? Does all information about all things have to be in every scripture? If so, then why would we need additional scripture? We have scripture that tells us about it. What difference does it make which book of scripture it's in?

 

3.  The million dollar question: Was Jesus married? 

 

We don't know that. Some authorities, have, of course, speculated on it and presumed that He was. But we don't know and it should not be taught in EQ that He was or was not.

 

4.  Besides the blessing of procreation, why is marriage required for exaltation?  Or is procreation the key to exaltation?

 

Procreation seems a good enough reason to me. Endless seed. Eternal lives. These are the key aspects of the Patriarchal order, the Abrahamic covenant, and the promise of exaltation.

 

5.  Which dispensaitons had eternal marriage and which dispensations did not have eternal marriage?  How do we know?

 

I'm too lazy to bother researching this one. But off the top of my head...any dispensation with the sealing power had it. So those without the higher priesthood (Israelites after Moses) or no priesthood at all (Great apostacy) and the like did not have it. It's sort of irrelevant though. Even dispensations that did have it did not mean the whole world had access. Work for the dead will be key to bringing most ordinances to the children of God.

 

Those are my thoughts. I do agree with you that you shouldn't deal with these things for the most part in your lesson. But interesting discussion points.

[garryw]

Well, since you asnwered number 2 with a question, I'll provide an answer to who cares?  I do.  What difference does it make?  Repetition is part of the process the scriptures use to convery a message. 

 

For example: How many times does the BoM state if ye will keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land?  I would guess at least 20 times.

 

Yet how many times does the BoM state marriage is necessary or mandatory?  Zero.  How many times is marriage presented as a commandment?  Zero.  Same with the Bible.

 

This comes across as odd to me that a mandatory and necessary ordiance (per JFS lesson 15) ordiancce is not mentioned.

[The Folk Prophet]

Well, since you asnwered number 2 with a question, I'll provide an answer to who cares?  I do.  What difference does it make?  Repetition is part of the process the scriptures use to convery a message. 

 

For example: How many times does the BoM state if ye will keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land?  I would guess at least 20 times.

 

Yet how many times does the BoM state marriage is necessary or mandatory?  Zero.  How many times is marriage presented as a commandment?  Zero.  Same with the Bible.

 

This comes across as odd to me that a mandatory and necessary ordiance (per JFS lesson 15) ordiancce is not mentioned.

 

To what end do you care? Mild curiosity or major issue? Mild curiosity...okay. It's just not a major issue though. Mormon did not feel inspired to include it because God knew He would reveal it to Joseph Smith. It should also be noted that it was one of the later revelations given, that the principle of eternal marriage was taught toward the end of Joseph Smith's life, etc... Which makes it seem, to me, a line upon line thing.

[garryw]

I dont have any major or minor issues.  I would just like to learn something new once in a while. That would be fun.

[mordorbund]

2. Why is there so little mention of this "mandatory" and "necessary" ordinance in the BoM and Bible?  Are there "hidden" scriptures in these books which imply marriage is required?

 

I would focus less on the "eternal" aspect of the ordinance and more on the doctrines and blessings taught and promised as part of the ordinance. You'll find that it is the Abrahamic covenant all over again (and some portions of the Adamic covenant of redemption). And you can find that in all four of the standard works. Genesis and Abraham along with D&C 132 define it; 1 Nephi shows it.

 

4.  Besides the blessing of procreation, why is marriage required for exaltation?  Or is procreation the key to exaltation?

 

I think living the marriage covenant accelerates sanctification. Additionally, many of the stories we hear about the premortal existence play out within the family: councils, unity, defiance, etc. If you want to run a heavenly council, learn the principles with your spouse. If you want your dominions to flow unto you without compulsion, then learn the principles of godly governance (and working with your spouse is a great way to learn these).

 

The simple answer is that God is married, and exaltation means we are like God.

 

 

5.  Which dispensaitons had eternal marriage and which dispensations did not have eternal marriage?  How do we know?

 

Back to #2, look for the ones that talk about the Abrahamic covenant.

[The Folk Prophet]

I would focus less on the "eternal" aspect of the ordinance and more on the doctrines and blessings taught and promised as part of the ordinance. You'll find that it is the Abrahamic covenant all over again (and some portions of the Adamic covenant of redemption). And you can find that in all four of the standard works. Genesis and Abraham along with D&C 132 define it; 1 Nephi shows it.

 

 Some solid additional insight. The Abrahamic Covenant, at it's core, is to rule over your posterity forever. It's hard to do that without marriage. :)

[Guest]

Let me interrupt this thread to just say...

 

It's great to see an EQ teacher spend so much effort in preparing for his lesson.

 

There are just one too many times that I hear people say EQ lessons are substandard somehow...

 

... okay, carry on.

[Suzie]

Hi garryw,

 

 In Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-22 states:

 

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

 

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 

 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

 

 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 

It is clear to me that a Temple marriage is a condition for Godhood because in order to obtain Godhood, one has to reach the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom and we already know the requirements for that. Of course it is not the only one, it is not a "free-pass" lol. I also believe Jesus was married and Talmage shared some compelling analysis in Jesus The Christ.

 

I like your questions :) I will think about it more.  Thanks for sharing!

[mordorbund]

 I also believe Jesus was married and Talmage shared some compelling analysis in Jesus The Christ.

 

 

I don't recall Talmage commenting on Jesus' marital status in Jesus the Christ. I do remember her took to task the notion that Mary Magdelene was some sort of prostitute, and I remember thinking later on that his seeming offense of the notion may be borne by such an idea but I don't remember anything direct. Did I miss something in my reading?

[garryw]

Let me interrupt this thread to just say...

 

It's great to see an EQ teacher spend so much effort in preparing for his lesson.

 

There are just one too many times that I hear people say EQ lessons are substandard somehow...

 

... okay, carry on.

 

Well as I mentioned in the original post, these questiones are not intended for the class. The lds.org webiste specifically states we should not discuss question 3.

[Suzie]

I don't recall Talmage commenting on Jesus' marital status in Jesus the Christ. I do remember her took to task the notion that Mary Magdelene was some sort of prostitute, and I remember thinking later on that his seeming offense of the notion may be borne by such an idea but I don't remember anything direct. Did I miss something in my reading?

 

No, you did not. I am not sure why I wrote that (senior moment). I got confused because I read Orson Hyde's view about it (mainly related to the wedding at Cana) and then compared it to the explanation given by Talmage.

 

In my view, Jesus and the Father fulfill the same laws they require of us to fulfill, they are our leading examples. They do not approach it as: "Do as I say and not as I do". The scriptures seem to be very clear about what the Lord desires of us with regards to marriage and frankly it would be odd to me to find out that he wasn't, not only from the point of view of him being our Savior but also from the cultural standpoint of him as Jewish man.  In the scriptures we have a few examples of his disciples being married as well.

 

 When Jesus started his Ministry, he was 30 years old, if he was single, it would have been an oddity and I can only assume if that was the case, the rest of the religious groups would have criticize him openly about it.They called him "rabbi" which I recall studying was a title given mostly to married men.

 

Then we have the relationship Jesus had with Martha and Mary but I think I am going offtopic.

[garryw]

 

I would focus less on the "eternal" aspect of the ordinance and more on the doctrines and blessings taught and promised as part of the ordinance. You'll find that it is the Abrahamic covenant all over again (and some portions of the Adamic covenant of redemption).

 

Coincicendentally, when I was sealed less than 2 years ago to my wife, the sealer first asked me to explain the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood, the Abrahamic covenant, and he quizzed my wife (we were already legally married) on the fall and plan of redemption.

 

So if the marriage covenant is the Abrahamic covenant with Ademic redemption covenant, then the Priesthood covenent must be mixed in there too.

 

Too bad the ordinance text is not published for reference.

[The Folk Prophet]

Coincicendentally, when I was sealed less than 2 years ago to my wife, the sealer first asked me to explain the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood, the Abrahamic covenant, and he quizzed my wife (we were already legally married) on the fall and plan of redemption.

 

So if the marriage covenant is the Abrahamic covenant with Ademic redemption covenant, then the Priesthood covenent must be mixed in there too.

 

Too bad the ordinance text is not published for reference.

 

Yesiree.

 

D&C 131:1-4

 

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

 

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

 

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

 

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

[bytebear]

Don't foget your handy dandy Topical Guide, my source for scriptural references.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/marriage-celestial?lang=eng&letter=m

 

Marriage, Celestial

See also Covenants ; Family ; Family, Children, Responsibilities toward ; Family, Eternal ; Marriage, Marry

• cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh: Gen. 2:24 . ( Gen. 2:18 ; Matt. 19:5 ; Moses 3:24 ; Abr. 5:18 . )
• whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: Eccl. 3:14 .

• whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: Matt. 16:19 . ( Matt. 18:18 . )
• What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder: Mark 10:9 .
• neither is the man without the woman … in the Lord: 1 Cor. 11:11 .
• a man … shall be joined unto his wife … be one flesh: Eph. 5:31 .
• heirs together of the grace of life: 1 Pet. 3:7 .

• whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven: Hel. 10:7 .

• new and everlasting covenant of marriage: D&C 131:2 .
• shall be of full force when they are out of the world: D&C 132:19 . ( D&C 132:1–66 . )

See also 4 Ne. 1:11

[garryw]

Well, I think I found the answer to number 5 in the section 132 summary

 

 

28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages;

 

So basically every dispensation.  I'm kind of assuming Moses knew and lived every doctrine in section 132 (He is in there twice) but had to withold it from the public.  Enoch and Adam surely practiced and taught eternal marriage.

 

For question 1 I'll have to assume that godhood and exaltation are not exactly the same thing, because prior to birth Jesus was a de facto god, but without a physical body or a wife (kind of like th eholy ghost).

 

And this line from the Bible dictionary kind of answeres question 2

 

 

The portions of the covenant that pertain to personal salvation and eternal increase are renewed with each individual who receives the ordinance of celestial marriage

 

because the Abrahamic covenant is covered sufficiently in the Bible and BoM.

 

 

Regarding question 3 I have managed to convince myself that I'm 100% sure Jesus was married, but that's my opinion rather than doctrine.

 

Question 4 I'm not fully satisfied yet.

[The Folk Prophet]

Well, I think I found the answer to number 5 in the section 132 summary

 

Quote

 

28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages;

 

So basically every dispensation.  I'm kind of assuming Moses knew and lived every doctrine in section 132 (He is in there twice) but had to withold it from the public.  Enoch and Adam surely practiced and taught eternal marriage.

 

Not necessarily. Promises are not always fulfilled in this life. All people are promised the opportunity for baptism as well. It does not follow that all people will have that opportunity while living though.

[MrShorty]

I'm not sure I understand #4 either, but I will throw a couple of thoughts into the ring:

1) In his Apr. 2013 conference talk (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/05/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=eng), Elder Bednar described "intimate relations" (aka "sexual relations" as I read it) as "one of the ultimate expressions of our divine nature and potential". If we assume this isn't just rhetorical hyperbole, there seems to be something inherently eternal and divine in marriage and sex. I don't claim to begin to understand what.

2) Dr. David Schnarch is fond of calling marriage a "people growing a machine." Though he speaks from a purely secular viewpoint, perhaps there is something to this. Perhaps marriage is supposed to be a significant part of our growth process that is part of the purpose of our mortal existence.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not sure I understand #4 either, but I will throw a couple of thoughts into the ring: 1) In his Apr. 2013 conference talk (https://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/05/we-believe-in-being-chaste?lang=eng), Elder Bednar described "intimate relations" (aka "sexual relations" as I read it) as "one of the ultimate expressions of our divine nature and potential". If we assume this isn't just rhetorical hyperbole, there seems to be something inherently eternal and divine in marriage and sex. I don't claim to begin to understand what. 2) Dr. David Schnarch is fond of calling marriage a "people growing a machine." Though he speaks from a purely secular viewpoint, perhaps there is something to this. Perhaps marriage is supposed to be a significant part of our growth process that is part of the purpose of our mortal existence.

 

I think the idea or procreation is inherent in Elder Bednar's comments. But I also think that there is more to marriage (at least in this life) than just procreation. A whole lot more.  How that fits into the eternities, however, is something that I don't think we can really understand.

[garryw]

Not necessarily. Promises are not always fulfilled in this life. All people are promised the opportunity for baptism as well. It does not follow that all people will have that opportunity while living though.

 

I would differentiate between limited access to the covenants in general, and the existence of a dispensation void of the new and everlasting covenant (including marriage).  In other words my position is that all dispensations had the new and everlasting covenant although it was not always recieved.

 

 

New and Everlasting Covenant

See also Covenant

The fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 66:2). It is new every time it is revealed anew following a period of apostasy. It is everlasting in the sense that it is God’s covenant and has been enjoyed in every gospel dispensation where people have been willing to receive it. The new and everlasting covenant was revealed again to men on earth by Jesus Christ through the prophet Joseph Smith. It contains sacred ordinances administered by priesthood authority—such as baptism and temple marriage

[The Folk Prophet]

I would differentiate between limited access to the covenants in general, and the existence of a dispensation void of the new and everlasting covenant (including marriage).  In other words my position is that all dispensations had the new and everlasting covenant although it was not always recieved.

 

I don't deny that you may be right. I'm not sure it's a forgone conclusion that all the ordinances were available throughout each dispensation. We know for a fact that they were not completely available in the time of the Law of Moses. We also know for a fact that they were not available in the Great Apostasy (though, strictly speaking, by definition this was not a dispensation). The reasons behind why they were not available (which I agree with you, it is because they were not received) has no bearing on the fact of whether they were available or not.

 

Either way, there are, unquestionably, times throughout the ages where there there was no authority on the earth to perform Celestial Marriage (The Great Apostasy being the obvious one -- which as I said, is not a dispensation -- so not really relative to your point -- but.....)

 

My sense is that Celestial marriage was available in all dispensations except under the law of Moses.

[garryw]

 Elder Bednar described "intimate relations" (aka "sexual relations" as I read it) as "one of the ultimate expressions of our divine nature and potential". If we assume this isn't just rhetorical hyperbole, there seems to be something inherently eternal and divine in marriage and sex.

 

Well that's interesting.  It is a logical reason for marriage besides children, although the two are linked.

[garryw]

 

My sense is that Celestial marriage was available in all dispensations except under the law of Moses.

 

But did Moses himself enter into Celestial marriage?  I think so.  He is given twice as an example in section 132.  So although it was not available in general, it was there in the dispensation.

[The Folk Prophet]

But did Moses himself enter into Celestial marriage?  I think so.  He is given twice as an example in section 132.  So although it was not available in general, it was there in the dispensation.

 

*shrug*  Sure. Okay.

 

I guess I wonder then, what's the point in understanding this? What's the gospel principle we find or...I dunno...what's the value in this? One man had the authority at the very, very beginning of a dispensation, then, yes technically all dispensations had it...except then the rest of the 99.9 percent of that dispensation after that one man died or was taken up did not have it.

 

So, I suppose technically then, I agree that likely every dispensation had it.

[mordorbund]

But did Moses himself enter into Celestial marriage?  I think so.  He is given twice as an example in section 132.  So although it was not available in general, it was there in the dispensation.

 

You can compare Moses with Nephi and Lehi (and Joseph Smith too if you want) as examples of the Abrahamic Covenant. The four blessings promised all come out to play in their stories.