Respect for life

[Backroads]

I have a family member who holds a respect for animal life. Which is great except when she gets argumentative. She is opposed to not only hunting but raising one's own food. The thing is, she's not a vegetarian, just prefers not being involved in meat production. Anyone who believes it more moral to be involved is evil.

I'm not really asking anyone to side with me or her, just wondering how others define respect for life.

[PolarVortex]

I define respect for life as avoiding all unnecessary suffering by any sentient being, and I would tend to side with your family member.  I'm sure I won't win any popularity awards here, but I oppose most hunting, most fishing, and even using live worms as bait for fishing.  I also oppose raising animals in cages or in confined areas, such as salmon farms, and if animals are to be slaughtered for human food then they must not suffer unnecessarily.  I believe the rituals of sacrifice in Judaism and Islam require avoiding unnecessary suffering of animals, which leads me to think that these rituals emanate from God.

 

I really am heartsick thinking about how animals have suffered over the centuries of human progress, but fortunately nonsentient machines have taken over a lot of that work.

 

And yes, I think animals will be redeemed and will return to their Creator in the afterlife, and for that reason alone they should be honored and respected.  Did you know that the probability of life emerging from nonliving material is zero, and that we shouldn't even be here?  See this link for the details:

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eric-metaxas-science-increasingly-makes-the-case-for-god-1419544568

 

Of course all life carries the fingerprints of God.

 

But some people can carry this to an extreme.  I still feel guilty for overturning the life of a militant vegetarian who owned several cats.  (I asked where her cat food came from... it wasn't from grains and seeds.)

 

Edit: the link above goes to a paywall.  But it's a really interesting article.  To reach it, you can Google "Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God" and click on the first link of the search results.  Happy reading...

Edited December 29, 2014 by PolarVortex

[Backroads]

Yet my relative prefers factory farming to locally raised and butchered meat. In my mind, factory farming is much more cruel.

[unixknight]

Human beings are designed to eat meat.  Yes, you can be a vegetarian or vegan but it's very tricky to get just the right nutrients from non-meat sources.  It is natural for certain species, like humans, to kill other animals for food.

 

That said, it doesn't mean that we have the right to ignore needlessly cruel practices either in farming or hunting.  We must kill an animal to eat it, but we don't have to torture it.

[jerome1232]

Yet my relative prefers factory farming to locally raised and butchered meat. In my mind, factory farming is much more cruel.

If she's going to go and call me out in such a manner, I'd call my relative out on the hypocrisy of that. Perhaps we can sit down and watch some netflix together showing farmed animals and compare their living conditions and treatment with homegrown animals.

If I was feeling real snide I'd talk about how cruel the procurement of maple is, bleeding those poor maple tree's.... Did you know fruits and vegetables are still alive after being picked? Have you eaten a raw apple That's cruel, eating things that are alive!

Oh right, you want to be nice.

 

[theSQUIDSTER]

A couple years ago I discovered this book:  Kindness to Animals and Caring for the Earth: Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Latter-day Saint Church Leaders.

 

I love some of the quotes about early saints encounters with rattlesnakes..

 

We crossed the Embarras River and encamped on a small branch of the same about one miles west.  In pitching my tent we found three massasaugas or prairie rattlesnakes, which the bretheren were about to kill, but I said, "Let them alone -- don't hurt them!  How will the serpent ever lose its venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it?  Men must become harmless, before the brute creation; and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the sucking child can play with serpent in safety."  The bretheren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek.  I exhorted the bretheren not to kill a serpent, bird, or an animal of any kind during our journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger. (HC 2:71-72, May 26, 1834)
      -- Joseph Smith, Jr.

 

As Hyrum Stratton and his companion were taking up their blankets this morning, they discovered two prairie rattlesnakes quietly sleeping under them, which they carefully carried out of the camp....  All was quiet in the camp through the night.  While the bretheren were making their bed in Captain Brigham Young's tent, one of them discovered a very musical rattlesnake which they were about to kill.  Captain Young told them not to hurt him but carry him out of the tent, whereupon Brother Carpenter took him in his hands, carried him beyond all danger, and left him to enjoy his liberty, telling him not to return. (HC 2:101-102, June 18, 1834)
      -- Joseph Smith, Jr.

 

 

Also, President Kimball gave a talk in 1978 in a Priesthood session... perhaps some of you who are older remember this?  "Don't Kill the LIttle Birds"

 

... I'll share a few more thoughts a little later... I'm going to go have dinner now... :)

Edited December 30, 2014 by theSQUIDSTER

[Guest MormonGator]

I'm a pro life vegetarian. I also despise the thought of hunting. I make all those choices for myself and would never even think of forcing someone to stop hunting or eating meat. 

 

Ironically, I don't like other vegetarians because I think they are insane. They view animal life as more important than human life, which is delusional. 

 

Sorry you are going though this. 

[Mahone]

I define respect for life as avoiding all unnecessary suffering by any sentient being, and I would tend to side with your family member. I'm sure I won't win any popularity awards here, but I oppose most hunting

I don't oppose hunting per se, as I believe it's an important survival skill.

What I don't agree with is the many people that classify it as a sport, and actively enjoy the activity. They are killing a sentient animal, there should be nothing fun about it.

I remember attending church camps where animals were killed to the amusement and enthusiasm of all the young men. I walked away, disgusted. I couldnt watch them killing it with such glee.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Mahone

[Just_A_Guy]

My experience is that hunters are great conservationists and actually tend to be more helpful in preventing poaching than pretty much any other environmentalist group; and I find it hard to get too worked up because someone's eating deer or elk they killed themselves rather than a cow that died at a slaughterhouse.  I can also appreciate the skill set it takes to stalk an animal and bring it down (I'm too soft-hearted to hunt or even fish, but I know it's more complicated than just walking into the woods with a gun and shooting the first moving thing you see); and I can sympathize with those who enjoy the entire hunting experience. 

 

But, killing just for killing's sake . . . yeah, that's messed up.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

Hmmmm - perhaps it is not respectful to keep animals confined as pets forcing them to live indoors and away from the elements they were born to live in.  Maybe we disrespect animals by forcing them to sit in our laps while we pretend they like us and enjoy being pampered and not allowed to do anything according to their instincts.

 

If you live in the west you should not drive a car - more deer are killed in Utah by drivers than by hunters.  And drivers just leave the animals they kill to rot on the side of the road.  I think hunters are kinder to animals than drivers.

 

It has been my experience that those that raise and hunt are far more respectful of animals and their habitat that than city folks that just suck up all the resources then care to use - wasting much and then criticizing those that utilize only what they need - recycle what they do not use and honestly give thanks for what they take.  Yes, I do not know what it is but city folks are out of touch. 

 

Just as a side note - almost every animal will at some time be some other animal's dinner.  Humans seem to be the only animals concerned about being nice to what they need to survive.  And contrary to popular theories among humans; with very few exceptions predators will kill just for the fun of it and love playing with and terrorizing their pray.  Almost all the cute and funny things cats do is part of their killing repertoire.  Anyone that calls themselves an animal lover and criticizes hunting in one breath and in the next breath keeps predators for pets or personal enjoyment is seriously in conflict with reality.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

This whole discussion has been really interesting, but this is my favorite comment. :)
 

 Almost all the cute and funny things cats do is part of their killing repertoire.  Anyone that calls themselves an animal lover and criticizes hunting in one breath and in the next breath keeps predators for pets or personal enjoyment is seriously in conflict with reality.

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. For me, there is an obvious hierarchy. Human, animal, vegetable, mineral. Vegetables are different to minerals, because they are alive, and we do well to nurture this precious, rare commodity we call life. Animals are different to vegetables, because they are conscious, and know the difference between pleasure and pain. Consciousness is even rarer than life, and we do better to make the utmost of our efforts an attempt to maximise the occurrences of a consciousness in a state of pleasure. Humans have the capacity of self-awareness. We are not only conscious, but aware of our consciousness. Self awareness is even rarer than consciousness, and carries with it a moral sense, insofar as we are not only conscious, but capable of reflecting on our own consciousness, and assessing it's quality. That moral sense also implies a moral duty, to make the world as close as possible to paradise for ourselves, each other, and the other animal consciousnesses we share our planet, and fate, with.

 

Where does this leave me, in terms of respect for life? Firstly that one should eat lower, more common, vegetable forms of life, in preference to higher and rarer animals, as a rule of thumb. Secondly, that if one is going to eat animals, (and many animals would never even know life if we did not eat them) that life should be as pain free and pleasure filled as possible.

 

Not, perhaps, revolutionary sentiments, but they suit me, and I can justify them rationally, which is a step beyond the emotional response of many who take an exception to eating meat.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited December 30, 2014 by 2ndRateMind

[Guest]

I eat what I have the guts to kill myself.  So, for your friend - it is better for him to be a vegetarian than to be a hypocrite, in my opinion.

 

By the way, I was surprised to find out that my friends who grew up in America have no idea how to take a live chicken and make it into the shrink-wrapped chicken cuts on a foam tray...

Edited December 30, 2014 by anatess

[Mahone]

Anyone that calls themselves an animal lover and criticizes hunting in one breath and in the next breath keeps predators for pets or personal enjoyment is seriously in conflict with reality.

I fall into your above specified category. We have pets, taken from a pet shelter. I personally consider the alternative for these animals to be worse than adopting them, but by all means we have them in our house for personal enjoyment too. I have also criticized a subset of hunters in my previous post.

I am well aware of all that you said above and have considered it many times before. I do not consider myself to be in serious conflict with reality.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Mahone

[Traveler]

I fall into your above specified category. We have pets, taken from a pet shelter. I personally consider the alternative for these animals to be worse than adopting them, but by all means we have them in our house for personal enjoyment too. I have also criticized a subset of hunters in my previous post.

I am well aware of all that you said above and have considered it many times before. I do not consider myself to be in serious conflict with reality.

 

Let me give you a little of my background - I was raised in a city but we raised chickens (mostly capons) and rabbits for food.  My grandfather was a sheepherder by professions.  One of my favorite animals was a dog named Reider.  He was a most unusual alpha male that was both an excellent sheep and hunting dog.  Reider was very territorial would take on a wolf or coyote by himself to protect his sheep.  But if you were not careful he would take a lamb for himself now and then; not necessarily for eating but for the shear fun of it. Reider was not good at all with children or for that matter most humans.  I will not go into his various attributes and blood line but if I was alone and lost in the wilderness and could have just one other companion - it would be Reider.

 

Many humans that call themselves animal lovers would not last 5 minutes with Reider.  Seriously - there is more to animals than the pretense of affection.  One can get away with relationships of love with other humans but but animals respect is far more important in relationships than love.  A true cattleman must have respect for his animals before love can blossom. 

 

I do however, have much of your disdain for many of the hunters of this generation.  That show up in the wilderness with their high powered weapons and blast away.  The art and skill of a real huntsman that can stalk, take down, butcher, field dress and prepare an animal for consumption is a lost art.  I remember the time while living in the Seattle area our house was invaded by a colony of mice.  Mice are very easy to hunt and kill - or trap if you will.  Having taken a fraction of the colony I suggested to the wife that I train my boys in dressing and preparing our take for dinner.  I had inspected the mice and found them to be very healthy and suitable for the table.  In case anyone is wondering the liver of an animal is the best indication of its health and possibility for eating.

 

My wife that thinks of herself as an animal lover would have nothing to do with eating the animals or allowing her boys the adventure of learning the skills necessary.  I love my wife dearly but I do not to this day understand why animals lovers would have such beautiful and useful animals killed (but always by someone or something else and never by themselves) and discard them with such waist and not think another thing of it.

 

Yes we live in such a strange and bazaar society.  A few years back I took our old dog to the vet and we determined the old friend would have to be put down.  When I told the vet that I would do so myself - he informed me that to do so I would, under the laws of my community, be subject to a fine and jail.  Really?  The answer is yes - sadly most city folks just do not respect nature and the animals that are meant to live in nature.  They has spent too much time in cities and have lost touch with the reality of actual nature.  The contrived and unnatural culture of city life has so turned them from nature they have lost all concept of what stewardship of G-d's creations is.  -- My opinion

Edited December 30, 2014 by Traveler

[Traveler]

I eat what I have the guts to kill myself.  So, for your friend - it is better for him to be a vegetarian than to be a hypocrite, in my opinion.

 

By the way, I was surprised to find out that my friends who grew up in America have no idea how to take a live chicken and make it into the shrink-wrapped chicken cuts on a foam tray...

 

I thought I was one of your friends????

Edited December 30, 2014 by Traveler

[Guest]

I thought I was one of your friends????

 

Ahh... now I know I have at least one friend in America who knows how to "convert" a live chicken into shrink-wrapped-on-a-foam-tray chicken. 

[jerome1232]

Ahh... now I know I have at least one friend in America who knows how to "convert" a live chicken into shrink-wrapped-on-a-foam-tray chicken.

Fortunately once the feathers and guts are out, and the head gone, use city folk can just spit the whole thing and have a rotisserie chicken!

[Backroads]

In a medical class in high school, we did mock surgeries. The idea was to take a frozen chicken or something similar. One of my group partners tasked with getting the chicken brought to school a live chicken which another teacher killed for us on the agreement he could have the bird after we were finished. I recall some interesting conversations that day.

[EarlJibbs]

I think that everyone should (at least once) have to kill an animal and process it if they want to eat meat. 

[Guest]

Fortunately once the feathers and guts are out, and the head gone, use city folk can just spit the whole thing and have a rotisserie chicken!

 

That is if... they can figure out how to kill the chicken and get the feathers out... :)

 

It is quite tricky to kill a chicken... they are hard to catch (well, unless your chickens are cooped up in cages) and they are prone to run around even after their heads are chopped off, spraying blood all over the place... and their feathers don't just come off easily.

Edited December 31, 2014 by anatess

[mordorbund]

That is if... they can figure out how to kill the chicken and get the feathers out... :)

 

It is quite tricky to kill a chicken... they are hard to catch (well, unless your chickens are cooped up in cages) and they are prone to run around even after their heads are chopped off, spraying blood all over the place... and their feathers don't just come off easily.

 

"That's why fur always wins out over feathers in my book" - anonymous

 

[Traveler]

That is if... they can figure out how to kill the chicken and get the feathers out... :)

 

It is quite tricky to kill a chicken... they are hard to catch (well, unless your chickens are cooped up in cages) and they are prone to run around even after their heads are chopped off, spraying blood all over the place... and their feathers don't just come off easily.

 

Some tips about killing for the table.  You do not want to chase the animals around or get them excited.  That can create adrenaline that will dis-flavor the meat.  Move the chicken into a area where they can be easily caught.  It is best to make this a daily ritual long before they are butchered so they are use to it.  Also it is a good idea to hobble chickens as a preparation.  Again this should be something a chicken is trained for so that the condition is not unusual.  Take the chicken to the butcher area genteelly.  Chickens will become memorized for a time with a line or a string.  Genteelly lay their head down on a block with a string perpendicular to their eyes.  One person calming the chicken - the other behind with the hatchet ready.

 

Once the chicken has bled out; drop the chicken in scalding water for a few seconds - 15 to 20 or so.  Then remove the feathers.  They will come out quite easily.  With the feathers gone you will want to finish the butchering by gutting the animal and removing all the organs leaving only the meat and bones.  Clean the animal by rinsing with water.  Also clean the kill area otherwise the smell will get much worse. 

 

You will now want to cure the meat by hanging the caucus in a cool place for about a day.  Do this right with an animal you have raised and cared for yourself - the meat will be unequaled.  Also when you gather your family for dinner and give thanks for your food - all those that were involved will be emotionally touched by that prayer and grateful for what is provided.

 

One last point - thought I do not intend this to draw anger but it is my personal belief that by being involved such in what you eat brings much more respect and thanks to a meal and tends to limit over eating and being indulgent or glutinous.

[Guest]

Traveler glazed over the hatchet part... that is actually the trickiest part...

 

This is how I was taught to do it - we didn't have a "butcher table" or whatever that is - our chickens come to us every morning when we throw the seeds out.  They will eat off our hands - so that's the best time to grab one and put in a holding pen until butcher time (it's advisable not to feed the chicken when getting ready to butcher so its crop is empty).  So then you take chicken out of the pen and hold him like a purse under your armpit while petting the chicken to keep him calm.  Then you crouch down, butt to your ankle, knees on the ground and a bucket between them, and the chicken between your legs with his head pointing down away from you towards the bucket while pinning both wings between the back of your thigh and your calf.  You massage the neck up and down (they get mesmerized by the massage and space out) until they are relaxed.  You pull a bit of his neck feathers to leave a small bald area on the jugular where the pulse is (you tap the area and you should see the pulsing through the skin) while continuing to massage the neck and say your prayer of thanksgiving... then slice the bald area with a very sharp knife just enough to severe the jugular vein and nothing else - leaving the knife on the wound to guide the blood to the bucket.  You don't chop the head clean off because the minute the spinal cord is cut the heart stops beating and the blood can't drain properly.  Cutting the jugular vein causes the brain to die so the chicken doesn't feel anything while the heart continues to pump the blood into the bucket.

 

So then you put the chicken in hot water (not boiling - only about 60 Centigrade) for a minute to soften the feathers and take the feathers out by rubbing it off in the direction of the feather (not plucking it out)... and you may be left with some pins still sticking out of the chicken so you pluck those out which takes a while to do or you can just torch that real quick to burn it off (just don't tell my mother, she doesn't want you doing that).  If you don't have pins left after rubbing the feathers off, it might be that your water temperature was too high or you stuck it in there too long so the meat is dried out - the temperature and length of time you put it in depends on the type of chicken - the younger the chicken the lower the temp and faster you take it out, ducks and fighter roosters (yeah, they still have cockfights in the Philippines, crazy as that sounds) you keep at higher temps and a bit longer time.

 

Then you take the "socks" out of the feet of the chicken - it's that tough skin encasing the feet.  You may have to stick the feet back in the hot water to soften it some more.

 

Then you twist the head off the chicken and this will detach the innards of the chicken and then you pull the innards out from the chicken's butt.  Separate the heart/liver/gizzard as they are good eating, and give the rest to the dog and cat.  Then immediately dunk the chicken and heart/liver/gizzard in ice water and swish it around some to rinse it off.  We don't cure chicken meat.  It either goes straight to the freezer or refrigerator or to the kitchen to cook right after.

 

And that's the Filipino chicken prep way...

Edited December 31, 2014 by anatess