Why Is Alcohol Forbidden When Wine Is Recommended To Timothy In The Nt

[prisonchaplain]

still though what about the fact that noah was drunk from the wine in the vineyard. Shouldn't that not be in the bible. It doesn't make a good role model figure I don't think

There are many episodes in the Bible of God's person or His people doing wrong. To me, these incidences authenticate the book--it shows us warts and all. One mistake some groups make is creating teachings or practices based upon the actions of God's people in the biblical stories. Sometimes the people were acting on their own--not with God's blessing.

[Guest Yediyd]

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still though what about the fact that noah was drunk from the wine in the vineyard. Shouldn't that not be in the bible. It doesn't make a good role model figure I don't think

There are many episodes in the Bible of God's person or His people doing wrong. To me, these incidences authenticate the book--it shows us warts and all. One mistake some groups make is creating teachings or practices based upon the actions of God's people in the biblical stories. Sometimes the people were acting on their own--not with God's blessing. I don't believe that Jonah had G-d's blessing when he chartered that boat to Tarshish!!!

...in other words...I agree with you, PC.

[CrimsonKairos]

The point is simple Yed. "If they make a prophecy that does not come true-they are false prophets." Simple.

Not exactly. It just means that specific prophecy was a false prophecy.

[Dr T]

Thanks CK,

I was wondering if anyone knew the Bible verse that talked about prophets that gave them and they didn't pass were false prophets. I don't think there is an option with that one. I'm too busy to look into it right now. If anyone knows please tell us. Thank you

[CrimsonKairos]

Dr. T, check Deuteronomy 18:22.

[Guest Yediyd]

Dr. T, check Deuteronomy 18:22.

18: 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

[prisonchaplain]

It makes more sense looking at verses 20-22:

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we aknow the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So, my sense is that the prophet who claims to speak for God, but who has not actually heard from God, is in desparate spiritual danger. Further, that when we discover such, we should not be afraid of the claimant.

[Guest Yediyd]

Yep, that about covers it!

[Snow]

The point is simple Yed. "If they make a prophecy that does not come true-they are false prophets." Simple.

Like who? Isaiah?

Was he a false prophet because his prophecies didn't come true?

I always wondered about Genesis 9:20-27. This is where Noah plants a vineyard and gets drunk off the wine and passes out naked, but the confusing thing is that his sons are cursed for covering him up. Anyone know anything about this?

It may be noted that the phrase "uncover nakedness [gala erwa]" is often used in the OT as a sexual euphemism indicating illicit sex or rape. This expression for sexual union is used throughout the incest prohibitions in Lev 18:1-18, 20:17-21,9 where, for example, we read: "If a man takes his sister, a daughter of his father or a daughter of his mother, and sees her nakedness, and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people; he has uncovered his sister's nakedness, he shall be subject to punishment." (20:17, NRSV) Notice the parallelism here between "seeing nakedness" and "uncovering nakedness," both inferring "having sex with." Because of a different context, "seeing" and "uncovered" in the Noah story do not prove that Ham had sex with Noah – but they do suggest some possible link between "nakedness" (erwa = genitals) and looking and sex in this story.

http://epistle.us/hbarticles/secrets.html

[CrimsonKairos]

Well said, Snow.

[Dr T]

Thanks it. Thank you all. Snow, I don't think so. ARe you referring to the future prophesies/end times things that are yet to come? Can you give me some examples? Thanks again.

[Snow]

Thanks it. Thank you all. Snow, I don't think so. ARe you referring to the future prophesies/end times things that are yet to come? Can you give me some examples? Thanks again.

I'm referring to:

Isaiah 19:5-7

And the waters of the Nile will be dried up, and the river will be parched and dry; and its canal will become foul, and the branches of Egypt's Nile will diminish and dry up, reeds and rushes will rot away. There will be bare places by the Nile, on the brink of the Nile, and all that is sown by the Nile will dry up, be driven away, and be no more.

and

Isaiah 17:1-2

This message came to me concerning Damascus: “Look, the city of Damascus will disappear! It will become a heap of ruins. The towns of Aroer will be deserted. Flocks will graze in the streets and lie down undisturbed.

Both are failed prophecies.

Well said, Snow.

Thank you

[Dr T]

Thanks Snow. Those are good ones to look into. I need the context and and understanding if they are talking about future things or a consequence if X didn't happen.

[Snow]

Thanks Snow. Those are good ones to look into. I need the context and and understanding if they are talking about future things or a consequence if X didn't happen.

Two of the easy outs.

2800 years is plenty long enough.

[Dr T]

not if this "2800 years" that you speak about is not the chosen time for the end times sir.

[Guest Yediyd]

not if this "2800 years" that you speak about is not the chosen time for the end times sir.

So, you are saying...there is still time for the prophesy to come true?

[Dr T]

I'm not sure. Like I said, I need to look at both of those examples. I don't even know what they are talking about.

[Guest]

Wow has it been a really long time..... But this topic really interests me....

Warning this is a long post. Answer to the original question is:

We don't drink alcohol becuase of continuing revelation. Supporting information below if you want to read it. I guess the same question could be asked about why we don't have animal sacrifice anymore...... Because they did that in the Bible right?

I wonder, none of the posts here actually look at the WOW as written(Sorry for the Superscript stuff):

1 A aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of bconspiring men in the last days, I have cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.

12 Yea, aflesh also of bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.

14 All agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the afood of man; as also the bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ashall receive bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

So reading this the word of wisdom as scripture denies or limits the following:

1) Wine and Strong drink - Except for Sacrament and "Washing of bodies"

2) Tobacco(All Forms) - Except for bruises and as medicine for cattle.

3) Hot Drinks(Coffee and Tea) - I wonder some times about Hot chocolate :)

4) Meat - to be used sparingly, and "Only in times of Winter or Famine" (My personal struggle)

The WoW tells us we should:

1) Use herbs, fruits and veggies - While in season

2) Grains - for various uses

What the WoW Promises:

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ashall receive bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Now on to the conventional wisdom. I don't have an exact quote or date, however I believe that someone mentioned it in an earlier post. The WoW was seen as guidance not commandment until sometime after BY. As such, there was a vote if I am not incorrect at a General Conference wherein the church chose to live the WoW as if it were a commandment. Living the WoW is a requirement for Baptism and a TR now by revelation(Don't have the specifics)

Now... Common misrepresentations and misunderstandings:

1) Caffeine is prohibited in the WoW

Not so, however I believe there was revelation within the last 50 years that Caffeine was to be avoided as if it were. Don't have direct proof

2) If I violate the WoW, I can be excommunicated

Not so. However you will not be able to hold a TR, or any calling requiring that you hold a TR. And depending on your local authorities take on it, your sacrament participation may be limited. However the Leaders handbook stricly forbids excommunications based upon violations of the WoW.

The First Presidency has required that all TR holders must live the WoW. Interesting though that most TR holders probably don't live the full WoW. I personally know many TR holders and only 1 who lives it to the fullness of that which is written. He will only eat meat from Oct-Mar/Apr.(Winter Months) Now I think he's entirely Veggie becuase he lives in Florida where it does not get cold.

There are so many justifications that could be made for many different parts of the WoW. The best and as I see it only way to get a straight answer is to discuss it openly and plainly with your local authorities. Long winded, and probably ignored after the first few lines, but that's my take.

[pushka]

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still though what about the fact that noah was drunk from the wine in the vineyard. Shouldn't that not be in the bible. It doesn't make a good role model figure I don't think

Wow, you haven't read much of the Bible have you? A lot of terrible things are written about in the Bible, far worse than getting drunk.

Take Dinah, a daughter of Jacob. She is raped and her brothers are so outraged they devise a plan of revenge.

Now find that Bible of yours and start reading. :)

M.

Yeah, they dupe a whole group of men to get circumcised and while they are still sore from it, they slaughter them!!! Ouch! And the guy that raped Dinah, really loved her...he wanted to marry her!!!

Or how about the place in Judges where two women get into a fight because they agreed to eat each others sons...when they ate one of them, the other mother refused to share her son...so the mother who's son they DID eat went to the judge for restitution because the other mother wouldn't let her eat her son!!!! That was during a famine that was so bad that people were paying MONEY for pigeon dung!!!! Read the book of judges!!! There is even a story in there about a talking donkey!!!

I'd love to see a movie made of the above, directed by either Sam Peckinpah, Quentin Tarantino or Ken Russell!!

[Guest Yediyd]

I hope you are talking about the Dinah story...I'd like to see that one too...but the one about the cannibalism I can do without!!!!

[Doctor Steuss]

Sorry, this is a long post...

I posted this quote in another thread (for another topic) but it is much better suited for this one:

This is a quote from Ruben J. Clark (as cited in the Autumn 1981 issue of Dialogue -- a really good read for a history of the WoW).

"...the Church cannot change the laws of God. They stand immutable. We may change the rules; we may say that a drunkard... [or] he who drinks tea and coffee may go into the temple. These rules we may change. But we cannot change the biological law that he who uses narcotics must pay the penalty somehow, somewhere, sometime...."

Someone mentioned Brigham and a conference, so I thought I'd post a source for that as well (while it's at my finger tips):

“President Young rose to put the motion and called on all the sisters who will leave off the use of Tea, Coffee, etc., to manifest it by raising the right hand; seconded and carried.

And then put the following motion; calling on the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of Tobacco, Whiskey and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom to manifest in it like manner, which was carried unanimously."

Next he is reported to have said...

"Those who go with me, will keep the Word of Wisdom, and if the High Priests, the Seventies, the Elders, and others will not serve the Lord, we will sever them from the Church. I will draw the line and know who is for the Lord and who is not, and those who will not keep the Word of Wisdom, I will cut off from the Church;…”

From the Frontier Guardian, Kanesville, Iowa, Vol. III, no. 22 (November 28, 1851)

However, according to some research there has never been an official vote to change it from "counsel" to "command" (and I believe this is where Ruben J. Clark's quote adds insights as to "rules" and "laws.") In fact, the first president of the Church to publicly declare the WoW as a commandment seems to be Joseph F. Smith.

Also, regarding "Hot Drinks" (and what is meant by it). This is from Joel Hills Johnson's Autobiography:

I was with Joseph Smith, the Prophet, when the Word of Wisdom was given by revelation from the Lord [D&C 89], February 27, 1833, and, I think, I am the only man now living who was present.

I was then thirty one years of age, and had used tobacco somewhat extravagantly for fifteen years. I always used some strong drink, and tea and coffee.

I knew that God had spoken and condemned the use of these things, and, being determined to live by every word that proceeded from His mouth, I laid them all aside, and have not used them since.

I well remember that, soon after the publication of the Word of Wisdom, the same excuse was made, by some of the people, for drinking tea and coffee that is now made--that hot drinks did not mean tea and coffee.

On a Sabbath day, in the July following the giving of the revelation, when both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were in the stand, the Prophet said to the Saints:

"I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said `hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom.

"The Lord was showing us what was good for man to eat and drink. Now, what do we drink when we take our meals?

"Tea and coffee. Is it not?

"Yes; tea and coffee.

"Then, they are what the Lord meant when He said `hot drinks.'"

Brother Hyrum Smith spoke to the same effect.

Personally, I think one of the most interesting verses of the WoW is verse 4. I think it illustrates why G-d saw fit to give this to us:

"...In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation."

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah, like how cigarette companies in the '50s put filters on their cigarettes to gain appeal as a "safer cigarette," yet forgot to mention that the filters had asbestos in them.

Anything for a buck.

[pushka]

I hope you are talking about the Dinah story...I'd like to see that one too...but the one about the cannibalism I can do without!!!!

Hehehe...I have an appetite for gory, bloodthirsty movies Yed!! Beware...lol

Posted by Doctor Steuss: 'And then put the following motion; calling on the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of Tobacco, Whiskey and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom to manifest in it like manner, which was carried unanimously."'

Does that mean that when the boys reach the age of 90 they can start drinking and smoking again? LOL, only j/k!

[Doctor Steuss]

Yeah, like how cigarette companies in the '50s put filters on their cigarettes to gain appeal as a "safer cigarette," yet forgot to mention that the filters had asbestos in them.

Anything for a buck.

Indeed.

[Iggy]

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Yeah, like how cigarette companies in the '50s put filters on their cigarettes to gain appeal as a "safer cigarette," yet forgot to mention that the filters had asbestos in them.

Anything for a buck.

Indeed.

They didn't know how bad that asbestos could be to us.

Of course anything for a buck - look how the manufacturers are pushing those "Power" drinks, and junk food and fast food.

We have our agency to not purchase. We have our intelligence to learn what is good and to stick with it.