Baltimore riots

[unixknight]

This is the statement released by the defense attorney for Mr. Webster, the Dover cop who kicked the guy in the face:

 

“Tom Webster is innocent of this allegation.

“Tom Webster was defending us from a noted gang member (Bloods) and armed robber at the time of the apprehension of Lateef Dickerson.

“Tom is not guilty of any criminal offense and we look forward to an impartial Kent County Jury acquitting him.”

 

Link

 

I'm stunned the lawyer would even try that hogwash...  "[he] was defending us from a noted gang member..."  Oh man that's almost as funny as the biting story from a few posts ago...  The guy had surrendered, was complying with the order to get on the ground, was making no aggressive moves of any kind, and by the way:  He was acquitted of all charges so he wasn't even doing anything wrong when they stopped him, but this officer found it necessary to kick him in the face to defend us from... an innocent guy who had already surrendered.

 

That he'd say that at all is something I find telling, in a way.  He's trying to cast Webster as a hero so people will be sympathetic.  Sadly, it'll probably work.

[Guest MormonGator]

 

 

This young man was not running, not resisting arrest,  not reaching for a weapon....there was really no excuse for this whatsoever.  This was clearly "excessive use of force" so why? 

 Exactly. Deadly force should be an absolute, total last resort. The man was of no threat whatsoever at that time.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is a time for deadly force-to save the police officers life , for example. 

Edited May 9, 2015 by MormonGator

[Traveler]

For the record - I am much concerned with the federalization of local or state security forces.

 

Under the administration of President Clinton a special task force was organized to combat terrorism.  This task force was and is organized under the National Gard for funding but report to the president without congressional oversight.  This was advertized to be a highly secret task force under presidential direction and in conjunction with the war on terror.  All this pre 9/11.  I have watched with trepidation for more information of this task force to surface - not a word to date - that I have been able to find - this also greatly concerns me.  I cannot find if this task force has grown to more than 60 (originally designated size).    I am concerned because this task force has power to operate on US soil without any official of any state (including states where action is taking place) having any knowledge something regular military cannot do.

 

I am also concerned with federal intrusion into local law enforcement.  Our constitution strictly prohibits federalization of state control - except in declared national emergency or (and this is somewhat a gray area) the request of local authority.   My point is this - if oversight of local police by local elected officials is operating in a manner of question to individual rights (belonging to the state) - - how much worse will police be without local oversight? 

 

I know that mistakes can and do take place with local police - but having served myself in the military - I cannot believe that the avenue to solution is to remove state right and control to federal control under the soul executive branch of our government and outside of congressional oversight for balance of power.  This is way to much power in one individual which is a threat to all citizens - much more than the threat of any local police to any minority.

[Windseeker]

[unixknight]

One of Baltimore's Finest is going to jail for 6 months for assaulting a man on the street.

 

http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/05/baltimore-police-officer-will-serve-six-months-for-beating-caught-on-video/

 

Not that this happened during the riots... but it's this kind of thing that makes tension between the BPD and the people of the city a problem that ultimately exploded with the protests and rioting.

 

From a related article:

 

“Much like the public, I was shocked,” said Baltimore Police Commissioner Anthony W. Batts. “I’m outraged. I’m disgusted by what I saw by an employee of the Baltimore Police Department. Nothing that I saw on that video is defensible, nor should it be defensible. And most importantly it’s unacceptable and will not be tolerated within this organization.”

 

"Me and the male got into a physical altercation due to me being in fear of my safety and I received a punch to the body."

-Officer Cosom

 

"In fear of my safety" now being the expected get-out-of-trouble-free card for cops who cross the line.  Good thing there was a camera on him or that hogwash would have remained the official story.

Edited May 15, 2015 by unixknight

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

This article has a lot of food for thought...and much about marriage and family...it's long but worth your time.

 

Black America: The fire and the fuel

 

"Some 60% of black students have yet to complete a four-year degree after six years, compared with 37% of whites. Some cannot afford the books or the train fare or need to look after a sibling or work to support their families. “You start off wanting to be a policeman or a doctor,” says Mr Washington. “Eventually you just want to eat tomorrow.”

 

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21650533-what-dead-white-man-can-teach-america-about-inner-city-decay-fire-and-fuel

[Traveler]

This article has a lot of food for thought...and much about marriage and family...it's long but worth your time.

 

Black America: The fire and the fuel

 

"Some 60% of black students have yet to complete a four-year degree after six years, compared with 37% of whites. Some cannot afford the books or the train fare or need to look after a sibling or work to support their families. “You start off wanting to be a policeman or a doctor,” says Mr Washington. “Eventually you just want to eat tomorrow.”

 

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21650533-what-dead-white-man-can-teach-america-about-inner-city-decay-fire-and-fuel

 

 

When I returned home from my mission and was also released from the army I had many personal struggles.  A Native American friend and former mission companion convinced me to try a dream quest or spending 40 days in the wilderness eating only what nature would provide. 

 

I believe I have experienced hunger that few in this country have.  I have been so hungry that I would eat bugs and insect larva. Hunger may be a convenient excuse for criminal behavior - but it is not the real reason.  Also being well fed does not seem to be the end of inhuman behavior or mistreatment of a neighbor.  I find the logic a rhetorical failure to imply poverty is the catalyst of criminality in one breath and then say that the greed of the "rich" is the cause in the next breath.

 

It seems to me that poverty is the excuse of certain politics as a means to exploit all economic classes - the very rich, the middle class as well as the poor.  Especially with governments (like ours) that distribute less than 40 cents to the poor for every dollar that is designated and funded for poverty programs.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

With all due respect Traveler, I don't think that your self-imposed wilderness experience compares to years (maybe generations) of poverty.  I think this is an anecdotal fallacy; there is no real comparison here.

Edited May 22, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Officers indicted the Death of Freddie Gray

[Traveler]

With all due respect Traveler, I don't think that your self-imposed wilderness experience compares to years (maybe generations) of poverty.  I think this is an anecdotal fallacy; there is no real comparison here.

 

The statement was about hunger and wanting to eat tomorrow.  If you are excluding me because of not having experienced generations of poverty - why have you not excluded the economists the wrote the article for the same reason - I submit that I have experienced hunger and "going without" at least as much as the economists you quote.

 

One other thing I find interesting - many years ago I lived in Maryland and about a block from my home was one of the poorest neighborhoods in the state.  They were African Americans but have lived there in a close knit society on land that was given to them when they were freed from slavery.   They were very poor and refused to leave their little plots of land and would not accept government welfare - that required they give up their land.

 

There were kind and giving - grew most of their own food and five or so families would share a single car.  There was no criminal behavior or violence.  If you lost money in their neighborhood they would not spend it but would save it for years trying to find the owner.  

 

Having traveled the world and walked through many poor communities - some with homes that had no door or windows to open and close in homes and children with no shoes - often naked and obviously lacking nutrition.  But such societies do not turn to violence or criminal behavior.  I believe government handouts to be much more a catalyst of lawlessness than poverty.  As a missionary I find poor people much more open to the teachings of Christ (a common theme in the Book of Mormon). 

 

I do not believe poverty causes criminals.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Just curious, did you read the article? Because it's focus was on family, which I thought would be of particular interest to LDS people.

I don't think that poverty must produce criminals (that was not my point), but I do think it contributes. There is so much more to the article than that.

About your experience... I have no doubt that you experienced hunger that most people never have or will, but since it was a self-imposed and had a time limit, I don't see how that compares to someone who lives in poverty and struggles daily to pay the bills, etc, with no end in sight. It seems like comparing running a marathon to another person's life-long, painful chronic illness.

Edited May 23, 2015 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

And for another entry in "why blacks don't trust the police"...

 

Fredericksburg Police Officer resigns after use of force on subject deems 'not appropriate'

 

Officer Jurgens tazed and then pepper sprayed a man who was having a medical emergency.  Even Jurgen's captain said he was out of line: 

 

"The use of force demonstrated in the incident involving Mr. Washington was not in compliance with department policy or training," said Captain Rick Pennock in a news release.

 

[Traveler]

Just curious, did you read the article?  Because it's focus was on family, which I thought would be of particular interest to LDS people.

 

I don't think that poverty must produce criminals (that was not my point), but I do think it contributes.  There is so much more to the article than that.  

 

About your experience... I have no doubt that you experienced hunger that most people never have or will, but since it was a self-imposed and had a time limit, I don't see how that compares to someone who lives in poverty and struggles daily to pay the bills, etc, with no end in sight.  It seems like comparing an hour at the gym to another person's life-long, painful chronic illness.  

 

I am thinking that many think poverty is relative.  I have never heard of someone dying of starvation because of poverty in the USA.  I have been in places (Mexico and Guatemala) where death by starvation is a daily occurrence which includes children.  While on vacation with my family in Puerto Vallarta we hired guides and horses and took a trip into the rain forest (jungle) of the near by mountains.  On our little trip we passed through some villages that cannot be reached by motorized vehicles and that had no electricity.  Clean water is rare and many children will not make teenage years because of lack of basic necessities - we take for granted in the US.  And we think people are poor in the USA despite the fact that the majority of poor here are overweight, they have color TV, internet and cell phones. 

 

In 1960 the US census indicated that by transferring 2% of the gross national product (according to many economic experts) that we would end poverty.  In an experiment first called the Great Society and later the War on poverty we did just that - but it was not enough.  We are now transferring over 12% - six time what was initially needed and poverty is as "bad" today or worse than in 1960. 

 

Isn't is about time we learned that poverty is not just about money.  Some are now saying that it has more to do with family - yet in 1960 less than 20% of children in the USA would not have a father and a mother in the home.  Today it is well over 50%.  The single most stressful economic problem of the middle class is increased taxes and increases in health (health insurance costs) and the largest increase in medical costs has been to cover the costs of those that do not pay anything.  The excuse has always been that the rich will pay the increases but the reality is that the middle class has suffered more than any other demographic. 

 

I am sorry but I do not believe that hard working middle class Americans are the cause of ills in the USA.  I realize the middle class is not perfect and has flaws - but I do not believe that blaming the middle class for poverty,  racial strife, poor education - or any other problem in the USA is going to solve a single thing - rather it will continue to make whatever problem there is -- worse.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Traveler

[Sumiko 410]

As someone who lives in Baltimore I can tell you this - the cops are on a power trip. They abuse minorities and victim blame. My 14 year old niece was gangraped by 5 20-30 year old men and bpd blamed her!

[Guest MormonGator]

As someone who lives in Baltimore I can tell you this - the cops are on a power trip. They abuse minorities and victim blame. My 14 year old niece was gangraped by 5 20-30 year old men and bpd blamed her!

 :-( stay safe. 

[unixknight]

As someone who lives in Baltimore I can tell you this - the cops are on a power trip. They abuse minorities and victim blame. My 14 year old niece was gangraped by 5 20-30 year old men and bpd blamed her!

 

As a fellow Baltimore person (I don't live in Baltimore, I just work here.)  I find this easy to believe, but I would hope there's more to it than that.

 

You are right, in any case... BPD had an awful reputation long before Freddie Gray was killed.  I was recently reading about a Baltimore city cop who had to resign because he reported misconduct by some of the other officers and was ostracized and threatened by the department.  That's kind of why I'm not very impressed by the "There are plenty of good cops out there" argument... It may be true, but not in Baltimore.  Where were all these paragons of virtue when Joe Crystal was being punished?

Edited May 29, 2015 by unixknight

[Traveler]

As a fellow Baltimore person (I don't live in Baltimore, I just work here.)  I find this easy to believe, but I would hope there's more to it than that.

 

You are right, in any case... BPD had an awful reputation long before Freddie Gray was killed.  I was recently reading about a Baltimore city cop who had to resign because he reported misconduct by some of the other officers and was ostracized and threatened by the department.  That's kind of why I'm not very impressed by the "There are plenty of good cops out there" argument... It may be true, but not in Baltimore.  Where were all these paragons of virtue when Joe Crystal was being punished?

 

I use to live in Maryland - The corruption and taxes are the worse of any place I have lived.  I paid as much property tax on a home that was worth $35,000 at the time as I now pay on a home appraised at $500,000 - and the schools were still horrible.   If someone is now going to argue that school funding has nothing to do with property tax - I'm going to lose it.

 

I am sure that citizens of Maryland can point to and blame who they will with ample cause - I decided some time ago that I did not want to live in that state.  In part because of the corrupt government that is in obvious league with organized crime and in part because of citizens that live there and let it all happen.  I am sure that corruption can be found with the police - but I do not believe for a second that is the problem that needs to be solved.  When there is corruption - you start at the top of the power pyramid - not the bottom.

[mirkwood]

http://www.breachbangclear.com/in-defense-of-the-officers-who-arrested-freddie-gray/

[unixknight]

http://www.breachbangclear.com/in-defense-of-the-officers-who-arrested-freddie-gray/

 

Appreciate your participation, Mirkwood.  Always good to have your input on these types of discussions since you can offer a perspective the rest of us lack.

 

There are a couple of problems with the article you linked though.

 

"I did almost exactly what three cops in Baltimore did, and they just got indicted."

 

Well, no.  The suspect that was arrested in the story from the article isn't dead.  Had Freddie Gray not died, the BPD officers would NOT have  been indicted for anything.  As it is, a prosecutor and a grand jury, who know more about this case than we do, decided to indict.

 

"Something happened during transport, Gray was fatally injured and died a week later."

This vague acknowledgement that "something happened" is pretty important, wouldn't you say?  A man died.  The way this article is written, it sounds like the point he's making is "Well the guy died, but stuff happens.  What can ya do?  It's all his fault anyway."  Is that really the defense you're looking to apply here?

 

Besides, we have video evidence suggesting that something happened to Gray before he was placed in the vehicle, and his injuries do not appear to be consistent with being banged around in the van.  Are supposed to ignore that?

 

The article goes on at length justifying the arrest.  Ok fine, the cops went after a guy who saw them and took off.  It was a reasonable thing to do.  I'll concede that point gladly.  

 

The issue here isn't that Gray was arrested alone, the issue is that he's DEAD.  He's dead.  He's DEAD.  In ANY other job if the actions of some of the employees cause the death of a person there are consequences.  Yet those defending the BPD here seem to think we should all  just say "well that sucks" and drop it.

 

I don't hate cops.  I'm not against cops.  I don't wish ill on cops.  Had an encounter with a MD state trooper yesterday after I made a wrong turn and he was helpful, polite and professional.  Naturally I was polite and friendly with him.  Good cops are good cops.  What I want is the same level of accountability that would be applied to anyone else when things like Gray's death happen.  Why is that a bad thing?

Edited June 2, 2015 by unixknight

[unixknight]

Duplicated.  Apologies.

 

Wanted to add something though... This quote at the bottom of the article sums up my thoughts pretty well...

 

"What he did in the past was irrelevant once he was detained, arrested, and place in cuffs. He no longer represented a threat to the officers. The officers failed to serve and protect someone who they were responsible to protect. "

Edited June 2, 2015 by unixknight