Anti-Catholic protests in Nevada

[Guest]

The Whistling and Whittling Brigade. :)

 

ASIDE: I wonder if that was the inspiration for Charles Bronson's harmonica.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

It sends the message that we are now prepared to use physical force - violence - to prevent these intrusions.  Doesn't matter if we want it to become violent or not... the very fact that we're talking about getting a goon squad together is the clearest sign ther we're preparing for it.  I call that escalating the situation.

 

Nauvoo Whittling and Whistlilng Brigade - when the church organized children to arm themselves with knives and follow around strangers.  The implied threat of violence from children apparently went a long way to preserving peace in post-martyrdom, lawless Nauvoo.

 

“But what good will it do?” Ezra wanted to know.

 

“Plenty,” Brother Johnson explained, “because while you are doing it, you will be watching and following any strangers who come into town. With so many eyes watching them, they probably won’t do too much damage.”

 

“What if they don’t like it?”

 

“What can they do? You’re too little to pick on and too many to lick.”

 

 

One author described it like this:

 

The City of Joseph's elders ingeniously met the increasing flood of Gentile undesirables by organizing the boy population into a "Whistling and Whittling Brigade." Suspicious strangers immediately would be surrounded by groups of boys, armed with long-bladed jack-knives and sticks. Whichever way the suspect moved, the boys followed; whistling and whittling as they went. Not a question would they ask, not a question would they answer. They were too small to strike individually; too many to battle collectively. When they descended on a hapless stranger, they hugged his presence like vermin, until in exasperation he was glad to take hasty leave from the abode of the Saints.

 

 

I've rarely found myself on a more opposite side of a fence than I am on this issue with you, unixknight.  I think it's cool that the church is big enough to hold the oath-of-peace-taking people of Ammon, and their warrior Sons of Helaman children.  I can totally respect your nonviolent peaceful approach.  It would be nice if you could drum up some begrudging respect for those a bit more willing to take action to defend themselves and their loved ones.

Edited December 15, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[EarlJibbs]

  I reserve the word evil for much greater threats than these.  In a world with Planned Parenthood and ISIS, this is barely even on the radar.

 

But it is on the radar though right? 

 

By this thinking, we shouldn't be bothered by abusive husbands or pornography, because hey, Isis is is chopping heads off and killing Christians. Someone just swindled someone else out of their life savings? Who has time for that while Planned Parenthood is out there? Yes we should prioritize, but these seemingly small issues turn into large issues if left unchecked and uncontested. 

[prisonchaplain]

Yeah I understand the cops aren't exactly jumping on this one, but again, I suspect that's because there are bigger fish to fry.  Doesn't mean the answer is street justice. 

 

Here's the thing:  I get the desire to have some guys be there to provide a physical barrier, especially if the police aren't as available as we'd like.  I get that.  I do.  I'd be tempted to do the same.

 

BUT

 

If that's a step we're willing to take, then we have to do so with eyes wide open and honest about what's happening.  It sends the message that we are now prepared to use physical force - violence - to prevent these intrusions. 

 

First, if the police do not consider Catholics to be big enough fish, there's a problem.  Again, if this had happened in a mosque would law enforcement have responded with the same tepidity?

 

As for a group of men standing at a door being perceived as the threat of violence, I'd suggest that's an unnecessary interpretation.  Companies hire uniformed private security without society decrying such as aggressive. 

 

Larger churches now have "security ministries."  Usually these are members who are off-duty law enforcement, who quietly patrol, during services.  To equate such with "taking up the sword" is unreasonable, in my always humble opinion.

Edited December 15, 2015 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

First, if the police do not consider Catholics to be big enough fish, there's a problem.  Again, if this had happened in a mosque would law enforcement have responded with the same tepidity?

 

 

They'll respond with much more vigor, of course.  But that isn't because they don't like Catholics.  It is simply because they don't expect Catholics to go out and behead these individuals and their families or start a war in the Middle East over it.

[unixknight]

I can totally respect your nonviolent peaceful approach.  It would be nice if you could drum up some begrudging respect for those a bit more willing to take action to defend themselves and their loved ones.

 

Defend themselves and their loved ones from what?  I'm glad we can disagree with each other respectfully, but your reply is making it sound like these trolls are running around attacking people.  If they were, I'd be the first to join the goon squad.  But however strongly we might feel about it, it hasn't turned violent. 

 

But it is on the radar though right? 

 

By this thinking, we shouldn't be bothered by abusive husbands or pornography, because hey, Isis is is chopping heads off and killing Christians. Someone just swindled someone else out of their life savings? Who has time for that while Planned Parenthood is out there? Yes we should prioritize, but these seemingly small issues turn into large issues if left unchecked and uncontested. 

 

When it turns into a large issue I'll join you on the goon squad.  Save me a spot.  Until then, I'm not willing to wet my pants over it. 

 

First, if the police do not consider Catholics to be big enough fish, there's a problem.  Again, if this had happened in a mosque would law enforcement have responded with the same tepidity?

 

As for a group of men standing at a door being perceived as the threat of violence, I'd suggest that's an unnecessary interpretation.  Companies hire uniformed private security without society decrying such as aggressive. 

 

Larger churches now have "security ministries."  Usually these are members who are off-duty law enforcement, who quietly patrol, during services.  To equate such with "taking up the sword" is unreasonable, in my always humble opinion.

 

But keep in mind where this started... with someone commenting on the idea of gathering a bunch of non-professional guys to hang around and be intimidating.  You're talking about professional security, which isn't the same thing.  Professional security guys are trained in how not to escalate a situation needlessly, and aren't there because of any specific group or individual.

 

Sorry guys, but I'm not going to be okay with beating the drums of war over this.  We can agree to disagree.  I'm seeing a lot of repies that have an almost eager tone to them, as if some folks WANT it to turn into some kind of holy war.  If these trolls start getting violent or start trying to physically prevent Catholics (or anyone) from having Church services, I'll be the first to show up with the goon squad.  Until then, saber rattling isn't going to be the remedy.

 

It would be nice if the cops were more on the ball here.  Maybe if it continues they will be.  In the meantime it seems to me that a simple locked door and a guy positioned outside with a key is all that's needed to keep things secure during Mass. 

[EarlJibbs]

"In the meantime it seems to me that a simple locked door and a guy positioned outside with a key is all that's needed to keep things secure during Mass. "

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by EarlJibbs

[unixknight]

I wish I could give that 5 likes for the Princess Bride reference

[prisonchaplain]

I just googled "church security training," and found about a half-dozen sites offering programs.  This issue of intruders, a few of whom may be violent, invading a church service is serious enough that the market is responding.  Religious organizations should, of course, focus on confrontational avoidance, safety, and legality. 

[unixknight]

I just googled "church security training," and found about a half-dozen sites offering programs.  This issue of intruders, a few of whom may be violent, invading a church service is serious enough that the market is responding.  Religious organizations should, of course, focus on confrontational avoidance, safety, and legality. 

 

Not surprised.  Between the shooting at the church in SC and the rising hostility toward religion (especially Christianity) in our culture, it makes sense that people are nervous.

[NeuroTypical]

But keep in mind where this started... with someone commenting on the idea of gathering a bunch of non-professional guys to hang around and be intimidating.  You're talking about professional security, which isn't the same thing.  Professional security guys are trained in how not to escalate a situation needlessly, and aren't there because of any specific group or individual.

 

 

 

 

I'm seeing the same apparent hidden baseless assumption: The only people who legitimately can resist bad guys, are those whom are "professional security guys".  

 

I mean, I get that you feel escalating situations must be avoided at most costs.  But again, it would be really, REALLY nice, if you could drum up a little respect for people who think differently.  You're talking as if your way is the only right way, and if only you explain yourself clearly enough, we'd suddenly understand.  It ain't so, unix.

 

Some things are not worth avoiding escalating conflict over.  

 

But more than that, one of the best ways to keep bullies away from you that exist in the human world, is to look strong.  It's how a bunch of scared kids with pocketknives did it in Nauvoo.  It's how that one guy in that one Godfather movie kept his dad alive by grabbing two guys that owed him favors and had them stand outside the hospital, making it look like the hospital was full of security, when it was really just two scared guys.  

Edited December 15, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[unixknight]

I mean, I get that you feel escalating situations must be avoided at all costs.  But again, it would be really, REALLY nice, if you could drum up a little respect for people who think differently.  You're talking as if your way is the only right way, and if only you explain yourself clearly enough, we'd suddenly understand.  It ain't so, unix.

 

Some things are not worth avoiding escalating conflict over.  

 

Just because I'm firm in my stance doesn't mean it's the only right way.  I do feel that I have to elaborate on my points sometimes because people have, on a couple of occasions in this thread, misrepresented what I said so I respond to set the record straight.  (I left out accusations of strawman arguments because that never makes things better.)  Is that unreasonable? 

[EarlJibbs]

I wish I could give that 5 likes for the Princess Bride reference

 

Your use of "goon Squad" keeps making me think of "Brute Squad" from the movie. That, and the reference to one guy with a key outside, I couldn't resist. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just because I'm firm in my stance doesn't mean it's the only right way.  I do feel that I have to elaborate on my points sometimes because people have, on a couple of occasions in this thread, misrepresented what I said so I respond to set the record straight.  

 All of us online should remember this. It's easy to misrepresent or take things vastly out of context and get huffy or upset. 

In the end we are all brothers and sisters, and if you get offended easily, the internet really isn't the place for you. 

If you can't shake hands in the end, you have no business discussing even the most banal and unimportant issues. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by MormonGator

[Blackmarch]

This is a story, because we seldom see such brazenness. The last time I read of this kind of incident was when ACT UP engaged in it, over a decade ago. It's amazing to me that college kids get safe spaces from "micro-aggressions," but all churches get, when their sacred space is invaded is, "Well there aren't any felony laws against this, so..."

A showed this to a Catholic friend, and we wondered aloud whether the police response would have been so tepid had the target been a mosque.

So sad

It would seem,, when your central figure and pillar to your way of life teaches non retribution, forgiveness, and to endure the smitings and strifes, that this sort of imbalance would occur- to those who oppose him, his followers appear weak and simpleminded... And probably would seem a better target as they are taught to not retaliate.

[Ironhold]

http://www.kcentv.com/story/31394418/christian-group-disrupts-catholic-church-mass

They're back. This time, they struck in Texas. 

Round Rock is near enough to Austin that people likely didn't know what was going on. Most other places in the state likely wouldn't have taken things so passively.

[unixknight]

At least this time someone called the police and they got rid of the yahoos.

I wonder if these idiots think their behavior is going to convince people to con vert out of Catholicism and join them.

"Get out of this Church!  Mary is teh ebil!"

"Hmm.... well, with such a passionate, yet well thought out and enthusiastic yell, you must be right!  Baptize me!  Baptize me!"

[NightSG]

On 12/15/2015 at 0:19 PM, Guest said:

They'll respond with much more vigor, of course.  But that isn't because they don't like Catholics.  It is simply because they don't expect Catholics to go out and behead these individuals and their families or start a war in the Middle East over it.

Oh sure, because they've never done that before.  

[unixknight]

9 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Oh sure, because they've never done that before.  

Oh please, please, please let that be a Crusades reference....

[NightSG]

8 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Oh please, please, please let that be a Crusades reference....

You mean those times that the Catholics went to the Middle East and hacked up a bunch of Muslims?  Yeah, pretty much.

[unixknight]

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for making my day.  Of all the topics, debates, subjects and discussions I've engaged in, the Crusades are my favorite.
  This should probably be in a separate thread, but I'll kickoff her by saying that distilling the Crusades down to the oversimplified level of "It's just Christians being belligerent to Muslims" is wildly inaccurate and utterly fails to paint a real picture.

The First Crusade was a direct result of Islamic aggression against another Christian power, the Byzantine Empire, which was requesting help.  At that point, war had already been raging for centuries as Islamic expansion swallowed up previously Christian lands across North Africa, into the Iberian Peninsula, East into Persia, and was trying to push into the Baltics.  This wasn't a peaceful expansion, it was conversion by the sword and it was old news the day the first Crusader took the cross to go on Crusade. 

Modern revisionism likes to ignore that little fact because it's a lot harder to paint the Turks as peaceful martyrs in the face of Christian aggression.

To relate that to this subject, that was a case where a military response was going to be the only way to prevent further shenanigans, whereas at least in the yahoos running into churches it's nonviolent so far.  When it does become violent... things are gonna get ugly.  History has a funny way of repeating, even in miniature scale.

Edited March 9, 2016 by unixknight

[NeuroTypical]

Oh, man!  Do I really have to lay down arms against unixknight in this thread, and stand as his ally as he speaks against ignorant historical revisionism?  Imma get whiplash on who I'm arguing with...

Edited March 9, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

4 hours ago, NightSG said:

You mean those times that the Catholics went to the Middle East and hacked up a bunch of Muslims?  Yeah, pretty much.

  No, it didn't happen like that. The Crusades were largely defensive and in response to Islamic terror in Europe. 

[NightSG]

45 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

  No, it didn't happen like that. The Crusades were largely defensive and in response to Islamic terror in Europe. 

Didn't say they didn't have a reason, but they did go to the Middle East and hack up a bunch of Muslims.

[LeSellers]

18 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Didn't say they didn't have a reason, but they did go to the Middle East and hack up a bunch of Muslims.

People die in wars. What you describe was common in warfare in that age: there were no Geneva Conventions.

Lehi