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Your Political Views Reflects Your Moral Views

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He saw where I was going and immediately did what all "liberal" Mormons do when they find themselves stuck between a rock of their ideology and a hard place of our theology. He said he didn't want to talk about it anymore.  :banghead:

 

Liberals do one of three things when the hard rock of truth falls on them. 

 

1.  I'm gonna take my marbles and go home.  You don't play nice.  In other words, you aren't accepting my higher moral point of view.

 

2.  Shaming and embarrassment; make fun of you by saying things like, "Let's get out our tin foil hats."

 

3.  Personal attacks by name calling and labeling:  "racist," "homophobic," "Islamophobic," etc.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Liberals do one of three things when the hard rock of truth falls on them. 

 

1.  I'm gonna take my marbles and go home.  You don't play nice.  In other words, you aren't accepting my higher moral point of view.

 

2.  Shaming and embarrassment; make fun of you by saying things like, "Let's get out our tin foil hats."

 

3.  Personal attacks by name calling and labeling:  "racist," "homophobic," "Islamophobic," etc.

 

I feel the same way about conservatives, only the insults differ.  Seriously, you don't see that conservatives do this too?  

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Guest LiterateParakeet

. He said he didn't want to talk about it anymore. 

 

The prefered response would be to argue until one of you dies?  Because that is more likely than you coming to an agreement.   :deadhorse:

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Guest LiterateParakeet

The progressive idea of big, all powerful, cradle to the grave government is anti to freedom and to continue to feed that monster is folly. They should beware because the demon they rouse will one day turn and rend them.

 

This is precisely what started my turn away from the Republicans.  I voted for George W. Bush because he talked about smaller government which I agreed with (judging by this statement you do as well).  

 

Then he got in office and we got the Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

 

Could a President EXPAND the government any more than that if he tried?  

 

And what about his father--famous for "Read my lips, no new taxes."  And yet what did he do when he got in office, but raise taxes.

 

If you're hoping for smaller government perhaps the best thing to do is vote third party.

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Seriously, you don't see that conservatives do this too?  

 

Nearly everyone does this, and not just about politics.  It's extremely difficult for any individual to step outside their own beliefs and analyze them critically.  What's more, the only way doing so can be effective is if it's continual, because doing so causes learning, which gives one new understanding, which alters one's analysis...  Done correctly, it requires divine assistance and matches this scripture:

 

D&C 50:24

That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

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This is precisely what started my turn away from the Republicans.  I voted for George W. Bush because he talked about smaller government which I agreed with (judging by this statement you do as well).  

 

Then he got in office and we got the Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

 

Could a President EXPAND the government any more than that if he tried?  

 

And what about his father--famous for "Read my lips, no new taxes."  And yet what did he do when he got in office, but raise taxes.

 

If you're hoping for smaller government perhaps the best thing to do is vote third party.

 

Oh, I very much agree. Strong centralized government has existed since the end of the war between the states. I am not sure anyone can or will do anything to reduce the size of government, but, perhaps will try to eliminate the ever increasing encroachment of freedom and liberty. 

 

The crux of the conversations hinges on moral issues and I am with Vort regarding the Democratic Party. Evil to the core and as far as voting third party, I think that is a throw away vote. I am registered ® though I am really libertarian and would prefer to try and change the evils of the ® from within than create something new.

Edited by bytor2112

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The crux of the conversations hinges on moral issues and I am with Vort regarding the Democratic Party. Evil to the core and as far as voting third party, I think that is a throw away vote.

 

That is only true if you're voting in hopes of helping some candidate win.  If, instead, you are voting for the best person (rather than the least-bad-potential-winner), then, far from throwing your vote away, you are making the vote which, in the eternities, counts most.  This assumes, of course, that you have made your selection prayerfully.

 

IMO, everyone needs to first give up voting for the "least-bad-possible-winner" (if that's what they're doing), start the better (and more difficult) practice of voting one's conscience, and then encourage all around them to do the same.  IMO, this is the way to bring about change.  So many are fed up with the major parties, but afraid to vote anywhere else.  Fear is of Satan, not God.

 

Just my opinion on "throwing away" one's vote.

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There are a great many problems concerning governments and the leader’s relationships with citizens.  There is a classic debate in Shakespeare’s play “King Lear” when the king goes among his soldiers before a decisive battle of a war and the idea is discussed of who is responsible for the atrocities of war.  The king is arguing that each man must be responsible for their own deeds but the men argue that as citizens and being conscripted into the king’s army they must be loyal to their king and that the king is ultimately responsible.

 

It is my personal understanding that a culture of blame is problematic and evil at its core.   In fact I believe this is at the core of the war in heaven.  That Lucifer and his followers wanted to separate themselves from the sins committed by others that are part of their “generation” and society.   Thus there are two ideas that seem to be contradictory – first that each man must hold to and answer for their own transgressions and sins and second idea that society must hold to some responsibility for what takes place within its confines.  

 

I am of the notion that we are all connected.  Though we like to think we are individual entities; I understand that we are individuals with our own intelligence but also we are social creatures and that we have obligations and responsibilities as part of the society in which we live.  Indeed we share the accolades as well as the failures of individuals for all in our society.   For this reason, our first two responsibilities are the same as G-d’s in that we must forgive and support repentant individuals – and the second is that individuals that cannot and will not abide the laws and covenants of our society must be forever cast out and released despite our personal love and concern for them.  Part of our mortal experience is to gain understanding of this eternal process of inclusion through forgiveness and exclusions necessary to preserve the law and covenants of our divine social order; to make a choice of the eternal social structure in which we are the most comfortable and capable to exist as a social construct.

 

The laws of our society are it morals and the morals of each individual is the law by which that individual lives and deals with others in the society they choose to live.   More than just our political views – the politics of our country are a reflection of who we are as individuals in that society.  Without question we must understand that our leaders reflect our individual morals and that we are bound with them in covenant.  We may not like or agree with our leaders – but we are bound by covenant and are together; accountable for making sure our laws and morals blend harmoniously.

Edited by Traveler

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Just my opinion on "throwing away" one's vote.

 

 
I hear ya... not casting a vote at all might do better for the Eternal record, but, not so much in our representative republic which we are blessed to live. Voting for a candidate that has no real chance of getting elected does little to further the cause. (whatever that may be)

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Guest MormonGator

A big part of thinking the other side is immoral is usually because we don't know anyone who thinks differently than we do, so we assume things. People think "Well, I'm right, so anyone who disagrees with me must be morally deficient in some way." It's actually the left that does this more than the right, but both sides are guilty of it. I'm lucky, my brother is a true democratic socialist and a much better person than I'll ever be-so I know that political differences don't mean the other person is bad. Granted, my close friends are mostly alike politically but I'm fairly iconoclastic and have some out there views-so disagreement comes up from time to time. 

Isn't talking about politics actually a good indicator of who your real friends are? My real friends don't care about disagreements. They still like me (yes, I'm shocked too). 

Edited by MormonGator

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Oh, I very much agree. Strong centralized government has existed since the end of the war between the states. I am not sure anyone can or will do anything to reduce the size of government.

I was with you up to this point. ☺

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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I was with to this point.

Emoticon noted, but where did he lose you?

The only quibble I had with the statement was that it was long before the War Between the States/Civil War/War of Northern Aggression. It started with Hammurabi (or earlier).

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Emoticon noted, but where did he lose you?

The only quibble I had with the statement was that it was long before the War Between the States/Civil War/War of Northern Aggression. It started with Hammurabi (or earlier).

Lehi

I don't think the Democrats are evil.

Of course I don't support abortion and I'm not a fan of socialism. But it's much more complex than that. I don't agree with any of the Republican candidates on what to do about the Syrian refugees or about the race problem in this country, or as Bini mentioned environmental issues.

Still, I have enough concerns about the Democrats that I might vote 3rd party. I know some think that is a wasted vote, but I disagree. I'm going to prayerfully consider the options...discuss it with people I respect...pray about it and then vote the way I feel is right. I don't believe that that vote will be considered either evil or wasted by the Lord. He knows what's in my heart and He is the One I want to please.

Before someone tells me again that Liberals are (fill in the blank)....no offense but it's not YOUR approval I seek. My relationship with Christ and Heavenly Father is personal.

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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.no offense but it's not YOUR approval I seek. My relationship with Christ and Heavenly Father is personal.

I think you are 100% correct with this one. The only approval that matters is the one with Heavenly Father and Christ. 

 

(and mine, of course) 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

A big part of thinking the other side is immoral is usually because we don't know anyone who thinks differently than we do, so we assume things. People think "Well, I'm right, so anyone who disagrees with me must be morally deficient in some way." It's actually the left that does this more than the right, but both sides are guilty of it. I'm lucky, my brother is a true democratic socialist and a much better person than I'll ever be-so I know that political differences don't mean the other person is bad. Granted, my close friends are mostly alike politically but I'm fairly iconoclastic and have some out there views-so disagreement comes up from time to time.

Isn't talking about politics actually a good indicator of who your real friends are? My real friends don't care about disagreements. They still like me (yes, I'm shocked too).

Switch that to the Right does it more than the Left, and I'll be in total agreement. :)

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Switch that to the Right does it more than the Left, and I'll be in total agreement. :)

 Yup. I think both sides-right and left-need to accept that you can be a good, decent and moral person and think opposite politically. It's just common sense really. 

Don't get me wrong-some political ideologies are inherently evil. Fascism and communism come to mind-but I can't go as far as to say every fascist or communist is evil. Some just might be misguided. I think a certain person running for president is a good example of this, really. His supporters are NOT evil for the most part. Just misguided.

Edited by MormonGator

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Yup. I think both sides-right and left-need to accept that you can be a good, decent and moral person and think opposite politically. It's just common sense really.

Don't get me wrong-some political ideologies are inherently evil. Fascism and communism come to mind-but I can't go as far as to say every fascist or communist is evil. Some just might be misguided. I think a certain person running for president is a good example of this, really. His supporters are NOT evil for the most part. Just misguided.

Yes, I agree. As you mentioned earlier, I know some fine people on both sides of the political spectrum.

About that last part, are you calling me misguided? LOL, you might be right about that. That's why I'm consulting with others who have different opinions!

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LOL. No, I don't think you are misguided at all. Even when we disagree, I always see why you come to the conclusions you do. 

See people? Learn from Lit and I. Be like us. We might even let you sit at the cool kids table. Maybe. 

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I don't think the Democrats are evil.

Please note that we did not say that Democrats were evil, but that the Democrat party was evil. It is a distinction with a serious difference. Individual Democrats run the gamut, just as people in any other group.

And, as I said, the GOP is no less evil, and Republicans are on the same spectrum.

 

Of course I don't support abortion and I'm not a fan of socialism. But it's much more complex than that. I don't agree with any of the Republican candidates on what to do about the Syrian refugees or about the race problem in this country, or as Bini mentioned environmental issues.

I disagree that the GOPs and Republicans are handling the "race problem" or the "climate problem" badly. It is equally certain that the centralization of power the Left proposes to "solve" these "problems" is a far greater threat to freedom (and ultimate solutions) than anything the Right has proposed.

As to the GOP proposals, the thing I object to vis à vis these (and a host of other problems) is that they don't have any that could really solve them, but, rather, they are merely less offensive, less statist, than the others we have seen.

 

Still, I have enough concerns about the Democrats that I might vote 3rd party. I know some think that is a wasted vote, but I disagree. I'm going to prayerfully consider the options...discuss it with people I respect...pray about it and then vote the way I feel is right. I don't believe that that vote will be considered either evil or wasted by the Lord. He knows what's in my heart and He is the One I want to please.Before someone tells me again that Liberals are (fill in the blank)....no offense but it's not YOUR approval I seek. My relationship with Christ and Heavenly Father is personal.

I have voted so rarely for the GOP (and never for the Democrat party) since 1976 that it would be simple to count them, if I could remember those instances, and I do not.

It is said that we ought not vote for the lesser of two evils because we'd then still be voting for evil. On those occasions when I feel I must, it is because not voting for the lesser of two evils means I am voting for (by default, perhaps) the greater of two evils. And that is even more wicked on my part.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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Yup. I think both sides-right and left-need to accept that you can be a good, decent and moral person and think opposite politically.

While this is true (see my note to LiterateParakeet), we ought to look at section 134 and the Church's canonical statement on government. Specifically, it states the governments cannot long exist in peace without their protecting life, liberty, and property.

Thus, much of welfare (by government) is simply not conducive to good government, nor sound doctrine.

Intents are important, but they do not justify the state's failing to protect, and even to abridge the right to own and control property.

Lehi

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While this is true (see my note to LiterateParakeet), we ought to look at section 134 and the Church's canonical statement on government. Specifically, it states the governments cannot long exist in peace without their protecting life, liberty, and property.

Thus, much of welfare (by government) is simply not conducive to good government, nor sound doctrine.

Intents are important, but they do not justify the state's failing to protect, and even to abridge the right to own and control property.

Lehi

 I get the feeling from your posts that you are a huge fan of the welfare state. 

 

(again, just playing!)

Edited by MormonGator

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I hear ya... not casting a vote at all might do better for the Eternal record, but, not so much in our representative republic which we are blessed to live. Voting for a candidate that has no real chance of getting elected does little to further the cause. (whatever that may be)

 

 

Unless by doing so, we create the critical mass needed to initiate change - this is my argument - if no one is ever first, nothing will ever change.  But I totally understand the desire to not throw away a vote, and to try to initiate change within a party from inside that party.  This is where prayer comes in - God knows best where each of us will have the best influence - and it doesn't have to be the same everywhere or for everyone - your best influence may come from within one of the two big parties, mine may come from walking away from them, etc.  Always trust God.

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Guest MormonGator

 Always trust God.

Amen to that. 

Zil, do you want to sit at the wives table or the cool kids table? 

 

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I get the feeling from your posts that you are a huge fan of the welfare state.

Am I writing in Yiddish?

No, I know you're being a bit (and a more'n a bit) sarcastic. Because no one could possibly be that poor at comprehension, not even a 'gator.

Lehi

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