Filthy Lucre

[Guest]

Quote

Elder Andersen when he said that almost without exception, the students at BYU believed in part or all of the communist manifesto

Citation?

 

Quote

If anything shows off or exposes the human body in any way...

Citation?

[Guest MormonGator]

28 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

It has been 15+ years since I was at BYU. I took several art classes. One of the classes was a sketch class in the Fine Arts building. Every other day a model in her (bra) or his sports underwear would pose for us. I still have the drawings, but withhold them from my kids until they get a little older

lol. My parents took me to art galleries at a young age. They correctly didn't let me watch R rated movies with graphic sex or anything, but they wanted to introduce me to cutlure, thank God

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

  Try a better example.

Actually, that example is pretty good. BYU is still a school in good standing with the church. Let's not try to be more LDS than the apostles here. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

8 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

I've read several things from professors and students from BYU and I'm afraid I agree with Elder Andersen when he said that almost without exception, the students at BYU believed in part or all of the communist manifesto.  As Pres. Benson said, there is a lot of secular ideas that creep in even at Church sponsored schools.  The psychology instruction is one that comes to mind.  I've read many questions and "answers" on the 100 Hour Board, and I'm blown away by the false doctrine I see spouted by ignorant students who make no effort to find out what is false tradition and truth.  President Benson said that his greatest enemies were at BYU.  He was appalled by the amount of professors and students who accepted socialism.  Try a better example.

First, I'm talking about BYU Idaho, and you seem to be talking about BYU Provo. I've heard there is a different spirit at each, but I cant say or back that up. But from what youve said hear you don't understand BYU Idaho at all. 

Care to back up your accusations with some actual quotes, with references? I know tons of people who went to BYU (both) and I don't know any  who support the Communist manifesto. I bet we have a lot of BYU grads right here, what say you alumni? 

Finally, you realize a lot of church money goes into these schools. That should tell you something.

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Actually, that example is pretty good. BYU is still a school in good standing with the church. Let's not try to be more LDS than the apostles here. 

love it

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

First, I'm talking about BYU Idaho, and you seem to be talking about BYU Provo. I've heard there is a different spirit at each, but I cant say or back that up. But from what youve said hear you don't understand BYU Idaho at all. 

Care to back up your accusations with some actual quotes, with references? I know tons of people who went to BYU (both) and I don't know any  who support the Communist manifesto. I bet we have a lot of BYU grads right here, what say you alumni? 

Finally, you realize a lot of church money goes into these schools. That should tell you something.

 

I think people confuse the spirt of BYU with the spirit of Notre Dame or Georgetown. Notre Dame and Georgetown have slipped away from Catholic teachings so people believe all religious schools have. Sadly, the equate "modernizing" with "secularism." It's sad. You can be modern and live in 2016 and still be devoutly religious. After all, we on this website prove it. Twenty years ago we wouldn't be here. 

[The Folk Prophet]

So anything BYU does or does not do is a standard for the whole church? You better cut your hair and shave then Gator.

[Guest]

And They Were not Ashamed reminds us that there was no shame or evil in being naked until Satan pointed it out. "See you are naked".  It was he who caused "naked" to become "pornography".

Pondering this point, one questions the following:

Quote

If anything shows off or exposes the human body in any way, if it is vulgar, degrading, and crude,

If the mere exposing of the body is evil, then we are all born evil.  A doctor is evil when he delivers a baby.  A parent is evil when they change a baby's diaper.  No, there has to be something about the mindset of the individual and the context of the situation that must enter into it.

That said, it is important to not use this as an excuse to see any and all "art" and consider it spiritually ok.  

While there is much here that really depends on the individual, it would be wise to err a bit on the side of safety.

[Guest MormonGator]

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 

That said, it is important to not use this as an excuse to see any and all "art" and consider it spiritually ok.  

]

 Of course not Carb, I totally agree. Pictures of the Virgin Mary with elephant dung on it are repulsive. Same with the crucifix in a jar of human waste. That's vile, sickening and totally offensive. 

There are also some paintings that ARE disgusting. What you can't do, however, is look at The David or a Degas nude and scream "Porn! Porn!" Context matters greatly. 

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What you can't do, however, is look at The David or a Degas nude and scream "Porn! Porn!"

Yes we can.

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes we can.

No it's true, you can.  Perhaps the best thing to do is ignore those who scream about it, though. It's just giving them more attention, anyway. In fact, I think it also causes more attention to be brought on the object you are protesting too, so it's counter productive in it's one way. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Elder Andersen when he said that almost without exception, the students at BYU believed in part or all of the communist manifesto.

Jojo,

We've had this discussion before.  "in part or all..." is a meaningless statement.  Some of the manifesto taken out of context is perfectly acceptable with proper application.  And there was no clarification in the document you previously offered that would say otherwise.  Pres. Benson is probably the most libertarian prophet we've had in... possibly ever.  But even he'd agree with me on my take.

BYU is not the Church.  We get that.  But it is a community of mostly faithful and well-meaning Saints who have been raised in the "culture" of the Church.  While not official doctrine, the consensus among the leaders of the school would be something I'd at least give weight to.  As the Lord said, "Speaking of the (school) collectively and not individually."

Edited March 2, 2016 by Guest

[Vort]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a phrase popularized by Karl Marx, yet still teaches an important truth that most sectarian Christians and almost all Latter-day Saints accept.

[Guest]

Vort,

That was a good example of what I was talking about.  If we as Christians are asked to serve the needy to the extent of our ability, it is understandable why Ayn Rand considered religion to be the source of the evil that is Communism.  It is unfortunate that Objectivism fails to make the distinction that Libertarianism does that a personal decision or a private organization's goal to serve is quite different from a government's use of force to do the same.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

Here's my slice of life story - your mileage may vary.

We were all totally shocked, back in seminary class in the '90's.  The teacher was a brother Quilter - he was actually one of the artists who worked on various Angel Moroni statues adorning our temples.  He walked us through the process of making one, and our sheltered LDS sensibilities received mortal blows.

  When you make an Angel Moroni to go on top of the temple, you start by making him nekkid.  Like, all the way nekkid.  Like, you-could-see-his-private-parts-if-you-looked-style nekkid.  

Oh, the humanity!  Aren't nudes in art the same thing as playboy?  We were, at the time, an entire class full of Jojo Bags, and struggled mightily with the notion that someone would intentionally carve a roughly male-genetalia-shaped mound on an angel that would eventually adorn a temple.  Not only that, but a realistic-looking bum, complete with crack and everything!  We were struggling with the paradox of respecting our good seminary teacher, and guilt for thinking about words like "mound" and "crack".  It was shocking and testimony-challenging.  

(And I really don't mean to pick on you Jojo, you're just the only representative of your side of things right now.  Your side is well-peopled by many good folks - I'm sure there are many here on lds.net.)

As he moved to the next slides where the clothing was added, it was a small relief, but not much.  "Clothing" on a Moroni statue, suddenly seemed very sheer.  Tight.  Form-fitting.  An uncomfortable amount of the body didn't actually get any clothing added - just drapes and ridges here and there causing the eye to see robes that didn't cover everything.  The end result is a modest-looking, robe-wearing man, but we were scarred for life.  Angel Moroni was naked under his robes - we'd seen it.  Not only that, but now every time we looked at the Angel, we remembered.

Angel Moroni: https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2229/2338267436_d5096c3d60.jpg

To be totally transparent, I maintained my Jojo Bags-esque sensibilities for another two decades.  I argued online, often, defending BYU's art program for not using nude models.  I strove to avoid not only raunch and pr0n and whatnot, but also tv shows featuring immodestly-dressed people, newspaper ads for women's clothing, my wife's knitting magazines, beer commercials featuring young people on beaches, you name it.  I admit to being an imperfect sinful male, but I often worked very hard to be good. 

It started changing when my daughter was born.  Here was a little naked thing, sent directly from God to us.  Learning to put on clothes, how to poop, all the stuff that babies/toddlers/kiddos learn.  I was awash in the total innocence of the whole experience.  We've never been too formal at our house, and behind closed doors my daughters often ran around in their birthday suits, and life was full of innocent childish glee, and I totally loved being a father.  Now we'd look through magazines in the doctor's office and play the "modest or immodest" game - spotting pictures of people, are they modest or immodest?  Plenty of examples of both.  They learned - I taught.  And they also taught me things too.  So healthy, so wonderful.

Then I was totally floored, as my daughters went through puberty.  Outside the house, they were always modest.  Inside the house was safe with family, and that didn't change, even though they were growing up.  The thing that totally floored me, was that it didn't change for me either.  Here they were, flouncing around innappropriately, and they were still my babies, and I was still full of the glee and love I had for them as I'd chase their little jiggly bums through the house.  More talk of modest, and husbands, and appropriate - all in the sacred safety of the home.  Mom and dad are safe - our home is safe (as long as there are no visitors) - plenty of time to maintain appropriate standards out in the world.  

I'm growing less and less Jojo Baggy during these years. 

Then my wife starts up teaching art to our kids, and we all start drawing and learning together.  And something totally amazing happens to me that I never, ever expected to happen.  I now see things from Brother Quilter's eyes.  When I see immodest now, I see the glory of God reflected in divine potential and clad in mortal flesh.  I mean, I'm still a guy, and I still avoid raunch and pr0n and all that - but newspaper ads or beer commercials or knitting magazines don't bother me any more.  I have no words to describe what changed in me - but I'm honestly not impacted by this stuff like I used to be.  Short description: I was able to draw or copy human forms without feeling guilt.  Even while drawing the private parts.  Nope - nekkid in art is not the same as playboy.  I spent my first 40 years of life believing it was, but I'm not there any more.  

I'm a lousy artist, but I can copy other's art.  As my daughters and I learned about art from my wife, I drew beauty.  The figure is dressed immodestly, but wearing more clothes than the models in BYU art classes.  You can see it here.  5 years ago, I never would have come within a million miles of drawing someone this cute.  Doing so would have been the equivalent of not just looking at pr0n, but actively creating it.  After all - this cartoon has girl parts, and in order to make it, those parts had to be drawn.  But now, I can look through spiritual eyes, and see just a hint of what God must see.

Jojo Bag, I'm not in your camp any more.   

Edited March 2, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[theSQUIDSTER]

Let's not rag on Jojo too much.  He's confided in us and told us some of his history.  I believe that for him the choices he's making are right because of the toxicity of his past and the things that were forced upon him at a very young age.  I believe he is very wise to steer clear of everything that he can for now...  It's not surprising that he views the world this way, very VERY carefully... It's how he stays healthy spiritually.

Jojo, sorry to put you on the spot.  Thanks for the things you've shared with us.

When it really comes right down to it, porn, filth and abomination are in the eye of the beholder.  I don't say this to make excuses for anyone or give allowances necessarily.  When Jesus spelled it out, it was " “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”  It wasn't about how much clothing she was or wasn't wearing or what style, etc...  It was all about the person looking and WHY they were looking.  That to me says that the things we do, how we look at others matters.  The responsibility to not look at porn may not have anything to do with clothing, dance moves, posture, etc... no matter how potentially suggestive or seemingly not... if we're looking at someone to lust after them (i.e we're looking that way at anyone who's not our spouse) then we're committing sin if we linger.  True, sometimes feelings or thoughts will come inadvertently... but that's when we should choose to flee as Joseph fled from Potiphar's wife...  flee in whatever way that we can..

That can be a difficult thing for some of us because we'd rather have it spelled out.  This is appropriate... this is not...  It's not that easy.  For me, if I see an attractive woman and I find my self "checking her out" ... that's my cue to look away, no matter what she's wearing.  Or, if I need to interact with her it can also be my cue to say a quick little silent prayer to the Father for help to view her as a sister and not as a potential mate or conquest.  This is an ongoing thing for me ... it's the reality of the natural man.  My rules are my rules and I know them and the Father knows them.  I know when I'm breaking them and when I need to repent.  I guess what I'm saying is it's a personal thing... Examine your heart and your feelings.  Where are they... and if you're looking at someone or even something (picture, mannequin, statue, drawing, whatever...) a certain way that you feel is inappropriate... THAT is abomination ... THAT is porn and you should do all you can to avoid it.

[LeSellers]

On 2/27/2016 at 5:19 PM, omegaseamaster75 said:

Question: If I own a restaurant and alcohol is served are sales derived from the sale of said booze filthy lucre?

The Church owned and operated the Hotel Utah, including the Coffee Shop, the Cup 'n Bowl, the Sky Room, and other restaurants, all of which offered something(s) that "violated" the Word of Wisdom, including alcohol (in the Sky Room, at least).

That commandment is for us Saints (although others can benefit physically and spiritually by observing it), not for the rest of the world. If your restaurant serves alcohol, Coca-Cola, or similar things, it is the responsibility of the imbiber to choose. I'd say, based on the information in the first 'graf above, that you're in good company if you offer them, and you would be bankrupt if you did not.

Lehi

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, theSQUIDSTER said:

Let's not rag on Jojo too much.

 No one is ragging on Jojo. When you state an opinion online, everyone has the right to disagree. It's not personal, it's an opinion. I don't know Jojo well, but I like him and consider him a brother. 

[NeuroTypical]

I hope I didn't come across as ragging on Jojo.  I've been an outspoken defender of the opinions he's expressed for 40 years - just had this big change in my outlook I wanted to share.

[theSQUIDSTER]

37 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 No one is ragging on Jojo. When you state an opinion online, everyone has the right to disagree. It's not personal, it's an opinion. I don't know Jojo well, but I like him and consider him a brother. 

 

32 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I hope I didn't come across as ragging on Jojo.  I've been an outspoken defender of the opinions he's expressed for 40 years - just had this big change in my outlook I wanted to share.

Sorry.  This was a quick post and I chose some of my words poorly.  I hope nobody is ragging on Jojo in their hearts.  I hope nobody is ragging on ANYBODY in their hearts.. But the natural man is quite strong in most of us, and I think it's easy to slip into that mode without even realizing we're doing it... Or at least it is for me.

Gator, I love your style and your unabashed opinions.  Of course we don't have to always agree on every nuance to nevertheless recognize and acknowledge the profound truth that we are indeed spiritual siblings!  And shouldn't that pretty much trump just about everything else?

Neuro,  I loved your story.  You weren't ragging on Jojo.  Again, poor choice of words on my part.  I think your story is a great example of the gradual spiritual evolution/growth that can overcome the natural man.  I think it's a journey we're all in the process of making... None of us have reached the end of it yet, but your comments give me hope.

 

 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, theSQUIDSTER said:

Let's not rag on Jojo too much.  He's confided in us and told us some of his history.  I believe that for him the choices he's making are right because of the toxicity of his past and the things that were forced upon him at a very young age.  I believe he is very wise to steer clear of everything that he can for now...  It's not surprising that he views the world this way, very VERY carefully... It's how he stays healthy spiritually.

Jojo, sorry to put you on the spot.  Thanks for the things you've shared with us.

When it really comes right down to it, porn, filth and abomination are in the eye of the beholder.  I don't say this to make excuses for anyone or give allowances necessarily.  When Jesus spelled it out, it was " “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”  It wasn't about how much clothing she was or wasn't wearing or what style, etc...  It was all about the person looking and WHY they were looking.  That to me says that the things we do, how we look at others matters.  The responsibility to not look at porn may not have anything to do with clothing, dance moves, posture, etc... no matter how potentially suggestive or seemingly not... if we're looking at someone to lust after them (i.e we're looking that way at anyone who's not our spouse) then we're committing sin if we linger.  True, sometimes feelings or thoughts will come inadvertently... but that's when we should choose to flee as Joseph fled from Potiphar's wife...  flee in whatever way that we can..

That can be a difficult thing for some of us because we'd rather have it spelled out.  This is appropriate... this is not...  It's not that easy.  For me, if I see an attractive woman and I find my self "checking her out" ... that's my cue to look away, no matter what she's wearing.  Or, if I need to interact with her it can also be my cue to say a quick little silent prayer to the Father for help to view her as a sister and not as a potential mate or conquest.  This is an ongoing thing for me ... it's the reality of the natural man.  My rules are my rules and I know them and the Father knows them.  I know when I'm breaking them and when I need to repent.  I guess what I'm saying is it's a personal thing... Examine your heart and your feelings.  Where are they... and if you're looking at someone or even something (picture, mannequin, statue, drawing, whatever...) a certain way that you feel is inappropriate... THAT is abomination ... THAT is porn and you should do all you can to avoid it.

The problem with this thinking is it has a bit of one-sidedness to it as far as the issue is concerned. That is to say, if every single person on earth was somehow magically suddenly in total control of their lusts, would it then be appropriate for people to walk around naked or to wear immodest clothing?

I'm not as extreme in my views as Jojo seems to be. But I do believe that simply labeling something "art" does not justify the nudity. I generally tend to believe that nudity in art has it's place -- but typically speaking it should not be for public display.

It's less about lust (though that can be a problem) than it is about modesty. I have no issues with lust when it comes to the statue of David. I do have a problem (slight) with the modesty issue and don't, particularly, feel that it and the like are 'appropriate'.

Of course I'm also the only one who actually seemed to register of Republican on that thread:

...so apparently I'm easily disgusted.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, theSQUIDSTER said:

 

Gator, I love your style and your unabashed opinions.  Of course we don't have to always agree on every nuance to nevertheless recognize and acknowledge the profound truth that we are indeed spiritual siblings!  And shouldn't that pretty much trump just about everything else?

 Thank you for the compliment my friend, and I say that in all seriousness. And I totally, 100% agree with you-like you said, we all recognize the truth of the Book of Mormon-that is profound, and we are all brothers and sisters because of it. I love how you put it. 

[theSQUIDSTER]

56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The problem with this thinking is it has a bit of one-sidedness to it as far as the issue is concerned. That is to say, if every single person on earth was somehow magically suddenly in total control of their lusts, would it then be appropriate for people to walk around naked or to wear immodest clothing?

I'm not as extreme in my views as Jojo seems to be. But I do believe that simply labeling something "art" does not justify the nudity. I generally tend to believe that nudity in art has it's place -- but typically speaking it should not be for public display.

It's less about lust (though that can be a problem) than it is about modesty. I have no issues with lust when it comes to the statue of David. I do have a problem (slight) with the modesty issue and don't, particularly, feel that it and the like are 'appropriate'.

Of course I'm also the only one who actually seemed to register of Republican on that thread:

...so apparently I'm easily disgusted.

You bring up a good point about modesty.  It's also a very difficult and potentially divisive one because cultural sensibilities vary greatly on what is appropriate and what isn't.  If you or I had both been raised in a predominantly Islamic culture, the whole discussion might be about whether it's immodest for a woman to appear in public without a hijab or a veil... Sooooo.... Cultural context matters as well as adds to the differences in perception.  I don't know what the cultural norms will be in heaven, but I personally doubt it's going to be a nudist colony.   I think Royal robes probably have a place in heaven.

For me, it has more to do with what is sacred.  I don't know if nudity is sacred or if it's more about the feelings expressed between a married man and a woman... For me THAT is the sacred part.. Those feelings to me are the "sacrament" of marriage.. Meant only to be explored and expressed for the legally and lawfully wedded.  Anything that debases, distorts and/or corrupts those feelings or makes them into common entertainment is abomination and is an enemy to the sacred beauty of chastity and fidelity.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, theSQUIDSTER said:

Sorry.  This was a quick post and I chose some of my words poorly.  I hope nobody is ragging on Jojo in their hearts.  I hope nobody is ragging on ANYBODY in their hearts.. But the natural man is quite strong in most of us, and I think it's easy to slip into that mode without even realizing we're doing it... Or at least it is for me.

No apologies.  Not that I believe we were.  But when one person stands alone on a position and everyone else feels free to disagree publicly with him, it can very easily seem like we're piling on him.  It's just that he happens to be alone on this position, for plenty good reasons.  We just happen to disagree with him this time.  

Note that I do agree with him on many other issues.  And I hope that when I disagree, I do so respectfully.

[The Folk Prophet]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It's just that he happens to be alone on this position, for plenty good reasons.

Not really "alone" alone. Jojobag often goes too extreme in his expression and views...but I basically agree with him on this matter.