Pride and Enmity

[naenae110]

This week in my scripture study, I was focusing on the topic of pride. As any good Book of Mormon reader, I instantly jumped to the pride cycle. In addition, I read Elder Ezra Taft Benson's talk "Beware of Pride" (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/beware-of-pride?lang=eng). Studying this topic is hard because it requires a lot of self evaluation and a lot of humility to really see what is the truth. I found it interesting that Elder Benson said, "In the scriptures, there is no such thing as righteous pride- it is always considered a sin". It made me ponder about the different areas in our lives that we have pride- in our talents, in our family, in our alma maters, in our education, in our country. They seem like righteous pride, doesn't it? He goes on to discuss that the real root of pride isn't selfishness or haughtiness, but rather enmity (in hated opposition to something). I started thinking that really, when we are being prideful, it is because we are trying to compare ourselves or our lives to someone else's. For example, if you are too prideful in your country, it is because you think your country is better than every other country. It's an interesting take on pride that I hadn't thought of before. The deepest kind of pride comes from our opposition (enmity) with God's will. I want to end my blog post with this powerful paragraph by Elder Benson: " Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s". 

Here are some questions that are worth discussion: 

Do you think all kind of competitiveness or opposition results in a type of pride?

Do you think that pride is different for every person?

What oppositions in your life had led to pride?

[Guest]

See "Other Meanings of Pride" in this speech.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/pride-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

[Vort]

2 hours ago, naenae110 said:

Do you think all kind of competitiveness or opposition results in a type of pride?

Yes. I believe that all competition is pride-based and thus evil. No exceptions.

I fully realize that this will put me at odds with the large majority of my religous, conservative, work-ethic-equipped compatriots. So be it. Competition is always based on being better than someone else, and never on actually being good. As long as you're the best (so the thinking goes), you define good.

I have tried to teach my children how to be successful in competing for resources such as attention and educational opportunity. I have encouraged my sons to wrestle, which is as competitive a sport as exists on the planet. But I have done so with decidedly mixed feelings.

Competition is evil. Perhaps it would be better to say that competition is telestial. I can live with that. But it is not what I want, and it is most certainly not what God proposes. I do not believe that God is in any sense competitive. He does not strive for the mastery over others. That is utterly foreign to his makeup, as I understand it.

2 hours ago, naenae110 said:

Do you think that pride is different for every person?

Sure, in the sense that green is different for every person. Each brain is unique, so each perception is unique. But even though our arms, legs, and eyes are all different from and distinguishable from those of others, we all still have arms, legs, and eyes. So pride is identifiable among various people, even if it is not manifest in exactly the same way in every case.

2 hours ago, naenae110 said:

What oppositions in your life had led to pride?

In almost every case, pride has come about because of my own insecurities. It is a rare thing when something I am actually strong in leads to debilitating pride. It usually arises when I cling stubbornly to some idea or opinion or belief or attitude because I'm feeling under seige. Thus, the perfect man never exhibits pride in getting his feelings hurt, not because he lacks feelings, but because his feelings are not amenable to you hurting them, any more than you would get offended by a.one-year-old pointing at you and saying "Funny!"

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Competition is always based on being better than someone else, and never on actually being good.

Sometimes it's based on being better than some thing.

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Sometimes it's based on being better than some thing.

Can you provide an example?

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, Vort said:

I fully realize that this will put me at odds with the large majority of my religous, conservative, work-ethic-equipped compatriots.

Even though I strongly disagree with you, I do admire you for standing alone in your views. Seriously, because I do often as well. 

To me I LOVE competition. But that doesn't mean I think I'm a better person than the other guy/girl I'm competing with. 

My question Vort-do you think pride keeps people like you and I going when it comes to online debates? No, that's not an insult. Just a question. 
 

Edited March 17, 2016 by MormonGator

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

My question Vort-do you think pride keeps people like you and I going when it comes to online debates? No, that's not an insult. Just a question. 

Speaking for myself -- absolutely. I have seen it in myself dozens of times. Many times (though not nearly often enough), I have left off conversations exactly because I recognized that my pride was driving me.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Speaking for myself -- absolutely. I have seen it in myself dozens of times. Many times (though not nearly often enough), I have left off conversations exactly because I recognized that my pride was driving me.

I've noticed the same with me, for what it's worth. 

[zil]

4 hours ago, naenae110 said:

Do you think all kind of competitiveness or opposition results in a type of pride?

The phrasing of this question is important, and a good answer requires letting the knee-jerk reaction come and go.

Competitiveness - not only does it result in pride, it stems from pride.  Can a person participate in sports without being competitive in their heart? (I don't know, you'll have to ask someone who competes in sports.)  But I think someone can play games which require a winner and do so without being competitive.  I think that because I love to play board games, not to win, but for the pleasure of spending time with friends or family (unfortunately, I know very few people who like to play board games).  The slight exception to that is slap-match-Uno, which I like for that reason and because it has me laughing the whole time - pretty sure a game of that is as good for your abs as 100 sit-ups.  I don't feel competitive when I'm playing these games - often, I don't even put much thought into strategy - I'm just there to play (and talk, and laugh).  But I confess to liking it when I win - of course, I also like it when someone who's tried hard wins...  I could also be guilty of thinking too highly of my own motives...

So then the question becomes, can one participate in activities which require a winner without being competitive?  Can one be pleased by the activity, without being prideful about who wins?  It might be possible (maybe, not sure), but if it is, it would be awfully hard.

Opposition, on the other hand, probably needs some parameters.  We know there must needs be opposition in all things.  Opposition to evil is a good thing.  Is not humility opposition to pride?  Now, if you're talking about opposition as in "being contrary" or arguing or fighting, then yes, where else can that come from except pride?  And giving in to it will either increase your pride, or humble you by force.

Interesting question.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, naenae110 said:

1) Do you think all kind of competitiveness or opposition results in a type of pride?

2) Do you think that pride is different for every person?

3) What oppositions in your life had led to pride?

The speech you referenced addresses these in ways that are not apparent from your post.

1) Competition is mainly discussed as our competition with God.  Only a couple times does it mention competition with man, and then it is not about some sporting event or so forth.  It is about competing for approval and judgement of man.  Opposition was brought up as a definition of the word "enmity".  It means making an enemy of someone else.

So, those forms of competition which cause the problems that the speech refers to, then yes.  Other types of competition can easily be entered into without necessarily encouraging pride.  We have Church sponsored competitions including sporting events.  Is the Church, as an organization, likely to sponsor an activity that, on its face, is an extension of pride?  I doubt it.

2) No idea what you're asking.

3) Everything.  I'm a pretty prideful person.  But I'm a lot better than I was years ago.  I keep hacking away at it.  I figure in another 30 or 40 years, I'll end up being pretty humble.  There.  I'm comparing myself to myself.  I'm competing with myself.  And I oppose myself from another time.  I'm always trying to be better today than I was yesterday.  I hope to be better tomorrow than I am today.  Is this evil?  It is a mindset that I believe is bringing me closer to God.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

  I figure in another 30 or 40 years, I'll end up being pretty humble. 

It's hard to be humble when you are wonderful, beautiful, intelligent and witty as I am. Just saying. 
 

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

I'm still trying to deal with my own modesty and humility Carb.  

[The Folk Prophet]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

Can you provide an example?

Well, I think when I "compete" in my endeavors (which are usually artistic) I am not setting out to be better than another person, I am setting out to create a better piece. Another example might be trying to beat a company (a thing) vs. an individual. To build a better bicycle, so to speak. That's what I mean. It may ultimately amount to a similar thing, in that things are created by people, but the mindset is different to me.

[Vort]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well, I think when I "compete" in my endeavors (which are usually artistic) I am not setting out to be better than another person, I am setting out to create a better piece. Another example might be trying to beat a company (a thing) vs. an individual. To build a better bicycle, so to speak. That's what I mean. It may ultimately amount to a similar thing, in that things are created by people, but the mindset is different to me.

I guess I don't understand how trying to improve yourself is a competition. I suppose it might be a competition with oneself, in a way, but that is not what we normally mean by the word.

[Guest]

I'm so much better than myself.

[Anddenex]

Here is a speech from educational speeches at BYU regarding competition. I, personally, do not believe competition is absolutely evil, nor absolutely good.  There are aspects of competition that is good, and there are aspects of competition that are evil. I remember when I was cut from the freshman basketball team at my high school. The resulted me in seeking to be a better player, and to make the team my sophomore year meant I had to be better than other kids at school. Was this evil? I think not; however, it could easily turn into evil and often does when we are so competitive that we loose composure and the spirit withdraws from us.

Here is a snippet from the BYU education, "One of the prophets who understood the workings of the economy and the impact of government policy was President Ezra Taft Benson, who taught that “freedom of individual choice inspires competition. Competition inspires shrewd and efficient management, which is conducive to the production of the best product possible at the lowest price” (TETB, 629)."

The Pearl of Great Price highlights how enmity was placed between us and the adversary.  A gift to protect, or for us to despise all that which is against God; although, Satan then uses this and then instead of pitting our will against Satan's temptation we end up pitting our will against God.  All enmity, all pride, toward our Father in heaven is sin, evil. The competition I have against Satan, overcoming his fiery temptations and proving myself before the Lord that I am worthy of is inheritance, I can't see as sin -- at this point in my knowledge.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Anddenex

[priesthoodpower]

On 3/17/2016 at 11:41 AM, Vort said:

Yes. I believe that all competition is pride-based and thus evil. No exceptions.

Maybe another questions is, Does God approve of evil?
Adam and Eve eating the apple was evil. Had they not eaten our world would not progress. Was it part of Gods design? yes.

I have played high school and college sports, there are many levels of pride. You can have pride in your abilities as a player/team to compete and win a football game, after ward humbly shaking the hands of your opponent and giving praise to God for the experience of accomplishment (or graciously accepting defeat if you were on the losing end). The pride that I do not like is when it turns to hate. "We are going to kick their butts and make them wish they never played us".

I believe that pride fuels innovation and advancement, there are many men and women in history with morals and behaviors that were "less then ideal", but their inventions and/or decisions helped to propel Gods work. If we waited around for a "Mormon" with perfect morals and values to invent something or be inspired by God to do something then we would be waiting a long time for the 2nd coming. 

Consider the role of our Savior and the Atonement and the ability to repent of our bad behaviors. Do the ends justify the means? 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, priesthoodpower said:

Maybe another questions is, Does God approve of evil?

No. Never. Not under any circumstances. This is an absolute, with no exceptions whatsoever.

1 hour ago, priesthoodpower said:

Consider the role of our Savior and the Atonement and the ability to repent of our bad behaviors. Do the ends justify the means?

Not sure what you mean, but it sounds like you might be saying that competition, an evil means, leads to a good end. I disagree. Competition per se, in the sense we are discussing (not economic, for example), is never a virtuous thing; in and of itself, competition never bears virtuous fruits. In this sense, it is not dissimilar from the idea of a couple fornicating, resulting in a pregnancy. The baby is a good thing, a blessing to the world; but that in no possible sense means that the fornication was good or justified. It was not.

I admit that, to some extent, I am using a "no true Scotsman" argument. But it is based on the definition of competition as an activity where you strive to gain the mastery over your co-competitor, where you compete to determine a winner and a loser. This is telestial, not celestial. I very firmly disbelieve that such competition has any place in the celestial realms. It strikes me as utterly foreign to God's nature.

[Guest MormonGator]

On March 18, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Vort said:

I guess I don't understand how trying to improve yourself is a competition. I suppose it might be a competition with oneself, in a way, but that is not what we normally mean by the word.

For me self improvement is a competition with myself. IE- In karate when practicing a form, I try to make fewer and fewer mistakes than I have before. Also when sparring, I am going to try and beat the other person. I am competing with them. What I do not try to do is 1) cheat or 2) hurt them.  

[tesuji]

"Beware of Pride" by President Benson is probably the best talk I've ever heard. It explains so much about the world, and tells me so much what I need to do in life. If anyone asked me, I'd vote for it to be added to our scriptures - would probably fit best in the Pearl of Great Price.

"Pride is the universal sin, the great vice "
-- Ezra Taft Benson

Edited April 8, 2016 by tesuji

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/19/2016 at 1:14 PM, Vort said:

No. Never. Not under any circumstances. This is an absolute, with no exceptions whatsoever.

I'm not sure you've considered this fully in terms of the scriptural ideas behind agency. We must have opposition to be tempted by in order to have agency. Therefore evil is an important component of agency. Without it we could not have it. So, yes, it's semantic...and I'm not sure I'd go so far as to use the word "approve"...but the concept @priesthoodpower suggests has some interesting ideas.

[Vort]

40 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure you've considered this fully in terms of the scriptural ideas behind agency.

On the contrary, I have considered it very carefully and over decades of time. I certainly may be wrong, but my opinion is not off the cuff; rather, it is carefully considered over a period of many years. God never approves of evil. This is apparent by the very definition of the words "God", "approve", and "evil".

The context of this discussion was competition. I am not as adamant in my feelings about competition as I am about the above-mentioned topic, but I am quite convinced that competition per se is in no way a celestial principle.

[The Folk Prophet]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

On the contrary, I have considered it very carefully and over decades of time. I certainly may be wrong, but my opinion is not off the cuff; rather, it is carefully considered over a period of many years. God never approves of evil. This is apparent by the very definition of the words "God", "approve", and "evil".

For me to understand you're going to need to defend it more that simply saying it's apparent. Because by my consideration, the word "approve" muddles it up and makes it not apparent at all.

Take, for example, the scripture that God cannot look upon evil with the least degree of allowance -- and yet...certainly, and obviously, God "allows" evil in mortality. If you consider the idea from an eternal perspective it make sense. If you look at it in mortality then it defies the very existence of Satan and his minions in the world, and the ability for any of us to choose evil according to our agency. Clearly God gives allowance for evil to exist in this life.

From a certain semantic view, it's fairly easy to conclude that allowance of something is synonymous to approval of something. As in it's existence in mortality has God's write-off. He said, in essences...yes, the existence of evil in mortality is approved by my hand. I will allow it that men may have opposition in all things. God approved Satan's being cast out here. That's an approval of evil on this planet. If God did not approve of it there would be no evil here. It is clearly to be understood that such approval or allowance is temporary. But it's still there.

So, no...it's not apparent by the definitions alone. At least not to me.

Edited April 8, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

The parable of the unrighteous steward would indicate that a certain level of competition is almost encouraged.