Help With Mormon Question

[darrel]

I thought only moderators could start topics? I am a late comer to this forum and have not read previous discussions on these issues. Could someone help me know how to find them.

[CrimsonKairos]

Look at the top-right of this screen, right above the first post. There's a button called, "New Topic." Click and there ya go.

[Dr T]

Also, to find old topics, look at the gray line that says LDSTalk.com below the page heading or picture of people. On that line you'll see Chat Blogs Help Search, etc. When click on search and put in what you are looking for in the field and see what it comes up with. Good luck.

[hightower]

<div class='quotemain'>

"In Jeremiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. "

how else could this be interpreted other than He knew him before he was a life in the belly?

What prompted me to even enter this thread was to play alittle on the words of snow[in a good natured way] on his claim of the Bible speaking CLEARLY on a subject

Of which the verse in Jerimiah does NOT speak clearly on preexsistence. Listen another way to look at this is becauseGod is all knowing and knows the end fron the beginning simply means that even before God formed Adam he knew ----in his forknowledge who he would form. That verse in no way limits its interpertation[or even remotly leans that way] to preexsistence

Actually, God said "I knew thee"...he did not say, "I knew ABOUT thee". I'm just curious, do you believe that God knew Christ before he came to earth?

[prisonchaplain]

Hey, I know you? You're on that TV show, right?

When God says I knew you, it means that we were eternally in his conscience, since he has always known he would create us. To turn the Psalmist's poetic description of God's deep understanding of us into a prooftext for premortal existence is a bit of a stretch.

[hightower]

Hey, I know you? You're on that TV show, right?

When God says I knew you, it means that we were eternally in his conscience, since he has always known he would create us. To turn the Psalmist's poetic description of God's deep understanding of us into a prooftext for premortal existence is a bit of a stretch.

But when you say "Hey, I know you" do you really KNOW them? Or are you just saying you know about them? If God had us eternally in His conscience, would it not be like watching a TV show where you are unable to really know the person that you are seeing to the fullest extent possible? I think it is a very powerful effect when you are literally close to someone and can personally interact with them rather than watching them on TV or in your conscience per se. Regardless, I understand the point you are making, thanks for your response.

[darrel]

Thank you for your help. I have now posted my topic for discussion. I apologize if I got off the topic of this thread.

[Brother Dorsey]

Hey, I know you? You're on that TV show, right?

When God says I knew you, it means that we were eternally in his conscience, since he has always known he would create us. To turn the Psalmist's poetic description of God's deep understanding of us into a prooftext for premortal existence is a bit of a stretch.

PC, Tommy,

It all boils down to the interpretation of scripture. Traditional Christians see it the only way they can, which is they best way they can figure it to fit into their beliefs and creedal doctrines. That's why there is so many different Christian sects....interpretation of scripture! The LDS church however, being the restored church of Jesus Christ has the additional scripture and revelation to explain further, back up, or clear up Biblical scripture that has been lost, translated incorrectly or corrupted by man. Tommy, it is not a "stretch" for the Saints to believe in a pre-existance because we believe we have been given the light and knowledge of the pre-existance. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we know traditional Christians will never understand the Lords full true doctrine because they are limiting Christs doctrine to just the Bible. There is so much more the Lord has given us, so much more understanding of his will and this is why LDS doctrine will always be a "stretch" for you and truth for us!

Love ya Tommy....keep on rockin' brother!

[Jason]

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we know traditional Christians will never understand the Lords full true doctrine because they are limiting Christs doctrine to just the Bible. There is so much more the Lord has given us, so much more understanding of his will and this is why LDS doctrine will always be a "stretch" for you and truth for us!

Why is it that Mormons seemingly always compare "traditional Christianity" with Protestantism?

Considering that 66% of the worlds Christians are not Protestant, that just baffles me. There are approximately 1.4 billion Apostolic Christians in the world. (Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans and Old Catholics) Source Another Source

Contrast that with the number of Protestants world wide at 700 Million (this includes Mormons), and you get my drift.

Traditional Christians are Apostolic Christians. Non-traditional Christians are Protestants and, well, Mormons.

Traditionally, Christianity accepted "further light and knowledge" via the Saints and their inspired writings. Just because we live in a country founded by Protestants and still 50% Protestant, does not make the whole Protestant world "traditional Christianity".

/rant.

[prisonchaplain]

Why is it that Mormons seemingly always compare "traditional Christianity" with Protestantism?

I could be wrong, but I think that terminology gets used ON Protestants. When discoursing with Catholics, it's easy to say "Catholicism." LDS very much want to be included in the broad term "Christian," and so use "traditional Christianity" to distinguish non-Catholic 'historic Christianity' from their teachings.

BTW, "Traditional Catholics" has a whole other mean--thinking of Mel Gibson here. :-)

[a-train]

I guess we should say 'non-LDS Christian' when referring to the Christian world excluding Mormon. I am guilty of referring to both Protestant and Catholic as 'traditional Christian'. Heck, you could even call Mormons traditional Christians at least with regard to Christmas and Easter. I guess you could even call LDS folks 'traditional Mormon' as opposed to some new off-shoot group. I should refrain from use of a term so ambiguous as 'traditional Christian'.

-a-train

[snipe123]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hello all,

I am very new to the whole "chat" thing. I have a question about mormonism though, and thought who better to ask than mormons themselves. Hopefully you guys can help me :)

I am interested in mormonisms' rejection of the ex nihilo theory. I know that mormons believe God doesn't create out of nothing ,but does that also mean that he couldn't even if he wanted to?

I've been reading quite alot on LDS dotrine and have to say i like it alot, but this particular teaching really gets me. I feel it demotes God in so many ways by teaching that he can't do something.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-

First, who teaches that God can't do something?

Second, how does a belief that God can't do something demote Him? If God can't grill a steak so large that He can't eat it, does that make him less of a god?

Third, we believe that God is omnipotent, ergo God possesses all power that there is. There is no power available that God does not possess.

Forth, the Bible makes no clear statement about creation ex nihilo early Christians did not believe in it. It did not appear until the late 2nd century.

I would like to make one slight adjustment to your last point...ex nihilio did not exist in Christian thought(which is probably what you meant to say) , until the second century, but the concept was very much alive in Greek and Roman philisophical schools...Many intellectual converts to the church who came from these schools of thought were embarrassed by the Christian idea that God would have anything to do with "physical" things, including such concepts as an actual physical resurrection, that Jesus actually allowed himself to physically suffer, that God would use existing materials to form the earth, or that God would have an immortal body...their reaction to it, was to adjust the Christian way of thinking and adapt Christian truths to fit more in line with Roman and Greek philosophy...An excellent Non-Mormon book on the subject is called: The Christianizing of the Roman Empire...hmmm, the authors name escapes me, so i will grab it when I get home today...sorry... The author says the book should have been titled the "Romanizing of the Christian Empire". A good Mormon source on the subject is Hugh Nibley's book (his best one) called: The World and the Prophets...which is a series of radio lectures (in book form)that he gave in the 50"s and discusses this and many other subjects regarding what Mormons refer to as "The Apostasy"...

[jsb]

And you should.

Man, talk about the lemming phenomenon...not just Christians but Muslims jumped on the false doctrine wagon!

"C'mon guys! Over the edge of this doctrinal cliff with me, it'll be fun!!!" they say as they hurl themselves into an unsupportable position.

*cue the sounds of hundreds of lemmings splatting on the rocky beach below*

This is the first (and probably last) time that I have posted here.

This is not the spirit that we should have when we are having a doctrinal discussion. If Sarah has a genuine question she should be afforded the courtesy of a polite answer. If she is looking for an argument, " Contention is of the devil" and this kind of response promotes feelings of contention. This is not what the gospel of Christ is about.

[prisonchaplain]

Crimson Kairos is one of the more intelligent, patient, and clear-worded explicators of LDS teachings to non-LDS we have here. This clip from a much lengthier post, does not represent the spirit with which CK dialogues with us. We all get passionate about our points, and this was likely buried in the middle of one of his well-reasoned posts.

Mind you, I speak of what I know, because of one of those lemmings! :-)

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks PC.

For what it's worth, you're one of the most intelligent lemmings I've ever had the pleasure to meet. B)

I guess we're all lemmings running towards different cliffs. I just hope the cliff I'm leaping off of has feather pillows at the bottom. I'll have to wait until the next life to find out.

[Dr T]

For what it's worth, you're one of the most intelligent lemmings I've ever had the pleasure to meet.

[Gaia]

CrimsonKairos: The Joseph Smith quote is from the KFD. "I might with boldness proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all."

Mormons refer frequently to a God who "creates" worlds without number..implying an infinite universe.

GAIA:

I'd like to just clarify that the rest of that quote indicates the point he was making is that the "spirit" or essential intelligence of human beings is eternal, like God's, and therefore uncreated --

"You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "Don't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize--the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed: they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.

....

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. [Referred to the old Bible.] How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth, and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they co-equal with our Father in heaven.

King Follet Discourse, by Joseph Smith.

Blessings --

~Gaia