Help With Mormon Question

[roman]

And my point[i was just having fun with snow] ---was clear cut biblical reference of which you can provide none------critical word being clear

Actually, that wasn't your point. You didn't assert that there was not a clear (or explicit) reference in the bible. You asserted that the bible was silent, ergo zero statement, clear or otherwise.

Either way, you are mistaken. The bible makes very clear statements.

1 Cor 15:29 is clear and explicit. There is no inference or suggestion.

Likewise many scriptures refer to a pre-existence, explicitly, for example: John 17:4, 5 or Job 38:4, 7.

roman says;

I don't really have time to get into all of this but your scripture references are lacking to say the least------to make a clear case for the Bible being clear on a subject

One scripture in all of scripture as in 1 Cor 15:29 doesn not make a case for a clear teaching on baptism for the dead Just as john 17:4-5 deals with Jesus which is a given he has always been-as compared to man And your just misapplying the verses in Job.

its my take that sence your misapplying scripture to make your point---you have not remotly convinced me or anyone else that the Bible is clear on these teaching. Only from your misapplication of scripture can you make the statment that seems to disqualify my take on things that the Bible is silent on the matters. I stand by that the Bible is silent--------you on the other hand must misapply scripture to make your point.

In the end-how can only ONE verse make a teaching clear-as in baptism for the dead

[CrimsonKairos]

I stand by that the Bible is silent-------

Of course the Bible is silent to you.

You have to take your hands off of your ears before you can hear anything.

[tiancum]

To confront the orig. question....

I believe that God follows Laws. For example, God won't be evil/devilish. God won't prove that he doesn't exist. God wont lie. Along the same lines, God isn't going to make something out of nothing.

He creates EVERY DAY EVERY minute...and he does so within the laws he has established.

I don't think he would break his perfect laws, i mean why would he? They are perfect, so is He. They get along quite well without being at odds.

That begs the question, could there be an exception? NOPE not to a PERFECT LAW.

[Doctor Steuss]

It did not appear until the late 2nd century.

True 'dat.

Nearly all recent studies on the origin of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo have come to the conclusion that this doctrine is not native to Judaism, is nowhere attested in the Hebrew Bible, and probably arose in Christianity in the second century C.E. in the course of its fierce battle with Gnosticism. The one scholar who continues to maintain that the doctrine is native to Judaism, namely Jonathan Goldstein, thinks that it first appears at the end of the first century C.E., but has recently conceded the weakness of his position in the course of debate with David Winston.

Peter Hayman, "Monotheism - A Misused Word in Jewish Studies?", Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (1991), 1-15.

I don't know why, it just seems deeply offensive to me to believe that God couldn't do something even if he wanted to.

I assume you have no qualms with theosis/deification/exaltation then?

Oh, that my words knew the joy of this pen

as it writes of the power to make gods of men…

Seriously though. If you abandon Greek philosophical thought, it tends to become slightly less offensive. Being "Almighty" does not necessitate that you can do "anything." It only means that you have all available power.

It is strange to take offense at such a trifle thing

When it was G-d who made Satan and also created death's sting...

http://www.fairlds.org has a links section to it's FAIR Wiki website. In the What's new articles section it has a link to that website also. Look up Creation Ex-Nihilo and I recall a few apologetic treatments of the subject.

Look for any by Ostler. His treatments of the subject are simply brilliant.

[roman]

<div class='quotemain'>

I stand by that the Bible is silent-------

Of course the Bible is silent to you.

You have to take your hands off of your ears before you can hear anything.

Not taking bait besides I know you said you were taking your doughnuts and leaving

[the Ogre]

CrimsonKairos: The Joseph Smith quote is from the KFD. "I might with boldness proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all."

Mormons refer frequently to a God who "creates" worlds without number..implying an infinite universe.

I love the King Follett Discourse, but I wonder if you were really paying attention to what was being said, or did you pick out a little snippet to get a bunch of LDS going. It is an interesting approach to ruffling feathers.

Aaron the Ogre

[Snow]

roman says;

I don't really have time to get into all of this but your scripture references are lacking to say the least------to make a clear case for the Bible being clear on a subject

One scripture in all of scripture as in 1 Cor 15:29 doesn not make a case for a clear teaching on baptism for the dead.

Roman, your point was that the bible is silent on baptism for the dead. 1 Cor 15:29 proves that you are incorrect. The bible is not silent and explicitly mentions it.

You can argue that I misinterpret the scripture (I didn't interpret anything - just gave the reference) or that Paul used a false practice to prove a true doctrine but your point that the bible is silent is flat incorrect.

Just as john 17:4-5 deals with Jesus which is a given he has always been-as compared to man And your just misapplying the verses in Job.

You are mistaken that I am misapplying Job or John. I am not applying them at all; merely pointing out that they speak to a pre-existence, about which you said the bible is silent. You can argue that those verse do not support the LDS understanding of pre-existence but so what. Your point was not that Mormons misapply scripture, but rather that the bible did not speak to a pre-existence.

its my take that sence your misapplying scripture to make your point---you have not remotly convinced me or anyone else that the Bible is clear on these teaching. Only from your misapplication of scripture can you make the statment that seems to disqualify my take on things that the Bible is silent on the matters. I stand by that the Bible is silent--------you on the other hand must misapply scripture to make your point.

In the end-how can only ONE verse make a teaching clear-as in baptism for the dead

I never claimed that the bible is clear about what baptism for the dead is all about or clear about the reality or correct understanding of pre-existence. I am only pointing out that your statement of silence is false. In fact, if 1 Cor 15:29 does not say anything about baptising of the dead, preytell what does it say when it says that the dead are baptised?

[Adomini22]

"I never claimed that the bible is clear about what baptism for the dead is all about or clear about the reality or correct understanding of pre-existence. I am only pointing out that your statement of silence is false. In fact, if 1 Cor 15:29 does not say anything about baptising of the dead, preytell what does it say when it says that the dead are baptised?"

Well said, Snow. I would like to hear the response on this one...

[sarah_22]

I guess I don't want to abandon "traditional" thinking. I feel at peace with Gods' power to create and very uncomfortable with the mormon idea of God. I can't help but feel hurt (for lack of a better word) when I hear mormons reduce God to an organizer.

the ogre: I can assure you that I have no intent of "ruffling feathers". I am just interested in mormon theology and am trying my best to understand it better.

[Adomini22]

Snows question wasnt answered as of yet.....

God is alot more than an organizer in LDS views. Organizing is just one thing he does, since everything is in its rightful time, place, sphere, etc....

[sarah_22]

Some quotes:

"Mormon teachings hold that there are a number of things which cannot be created, such as the matter from which the universe was organized (Abr. 4:1), intelligence (Abr. 3:18; D&C 93:26), and truth (D&C 93:26). It could also be argued that that laws of justice are eternal and cannot be created (Alma 42:22): Thus God had to “appease the demands of justice”

"Mormon gods do not have the ability to create out of nothing, but only organize existing material into other commodities, so the material must predate the Mormon gods."

"Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]; D&C 93:29-33; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28)."

[Adomini22]

Some quotes:

"Mormon teachings hold that there are a number of things which cannot be created, such as the matter from which the universe was organized (Abr. 4:1), intelligence (Abr. 3:18; D&C 93:26), and truth (D&C 93:26). It could also be argued that that laws of justice are eternal and cannot be created (Alma 42:22): Thus God had to “appease the demands of justice”

"Mormon gods do not have the ability to create out of nothing, but only organize existing material into other commodities, so the material must predate the Mormon gods."

"Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]; D&C 93:29-33; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28)."

And this conflicts with what, exactly. You have never heard that elements are eternal? Did god create the only being in his image out of nothing? No, he took and made Adam from the Earth. God forms, changes, and makes his best creations out of elements already present. The bible supports this...

[sarah_22]

another quote:

LDS apostle John Widtsoe taught that "God, the supreme Power, cannot conceivably originate matter; he can only organize matter. Neither can he destroy matter; he can only disorganize." (Widtsoe, A Rational

[Palerider]

another quote:

LDS apostle John Widtsoe taught that "God, the supreme Power, cannot conceivably originate matter; he can only organize matter. Neither can he destroy matter; he can only disorganize." (Widtsoe, A Rational

and your point is????

[sarah_22]

Yes, Adam was taken from the dust.

What I'm talking about though is the pure "elements" that make up the dust not being able to be created from nothing. It lessen him in my mind.

I guess the picture of God in my mind is someone who is above "eternal laws" not subject to them.

[a-train]

You know, from my childhood, I have always asked this about ex nihilo:

What was God doing during the endless duration of time before He commenced creation? He could not walk before there was something to walk on. He could not eat, talk, see, or hear without food, friends, light or sound. The image of God floating in a vacuum of nothingness before the first creation seems in my mind to be a downgraded view of God also. It's certainly not a glorious picture to view him blind and deaf without any enviroment whatsoever to deal with. Surely, if God is eternal, then He must have some eternal enviroment in which He has eternally lived.

No doubt, the creative power of God is miraculous and tremendous to say the very least. Water to wine is but a crude example of His omnipotent power. The earth, the entire celestial canopy over our heads, the enormous variety of life around us, this is ALL the work and creation of God.

But why must we attempt to define His creative powers in terms unknown to the scriptures and so speculative in nature? To say that God existed alone without any co-eternal habitation in which to reside is simply not demonstrable with the scriptures, nor do we have any indication thereof.

The LDS believe that modern prophets have been told by God that He has existed eternally in a co-eternal and unfathomably enormous enviroment wherein He infinitely creates and works with His own innumerable posterity. I can see little reason to argue against it and don't see at all how this downgrades or limits God.

The Mormons also believe that God was born in a stable in Bethlehem and grew up in a poor carpenter's family living out his life upon this earth in very humble circumstances. While I guess we could view that as a downgraded God, it is with an understanding of His work there that we see Him even more glorious in His humble sojourn among men.

Regardless of our opinion or perception, it is only by the His Spirit that we may be certain of these things.

-a-train

[sarah_22]

"The LDS believe that modern prophets have been told by God that He has existed eternally in a co-eternal and unfathomly enormous enviroment wherein He infinitely creates and works with His own innumerable posterity. I can see little reason to argue against it and don't see at all how this downgrades or limits God."

You don't see how having to obey eternal laws reduces God??? Shouldn't we be worshipping the laws that pre-existed God instead of God himself?

Do you believe God could create ex nihilo if he wanted to?

[CrimsonKairos]

Worshipping laws instead of God? That's a new one.

[a-train]

I don't understand. If God was a lawbreaker would this somehow make Him MORE glorious? Do not the scriptures proclaim that God came and lived among men and followed the law with exactness in righteousness? Isn't God's perfection defined by His superb ability in self-control and precise living of morality, chastity, and all things lawfull and good? It is man that is lawless and without self-control. It is Satan who fell from heaven in wicked disregard for the law of God. It was our first parents who fell in the garden of Eden by transgression of law.

'Thy righteousness also, O God, is very high, who hast done great things: O God, who is like unto thee!' (Psalm 71:19) God is the greatest abider of the law of all!

And, why would we worship laws? Those laws did NOT exist before God, but have been there with Him eternally for His benefit. For how can a law reap any benefit? A law is not an agent that it can act or partake, but a non-living thing to be acted upon. It is no more worthy of our worship than the false gods described by moses: 'which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell'. (Duet. 4:28) It is a far more glorious picture of God wherein He eternally sees and hears and eats and smells in righteousness.

-a-train

[Snow]

Some quotes:

"Mormon teachings hold that there are a number of things which cannot be created, such as the matter from which the universe was organized (Abr. 4:1), intelligence (Abr. 3:18; D&C 93:26), and truth (D&C 93:26). It could also be argued that that laws of justice are eternal and cannot be created (Alma 42:22): Thus God had to “appease the demands of justice”

"Mormon gods do not have the ability to create out of nothing, but only organize existing material into other commodities, so the material must predate the Mormon gods."

"Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]; D&C 93:29-33; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28)."

Plagarism Alert.

You are pretending that the words in quotes are from the sources listed. However all you did was plagaize someone's blog by cutting and pasting what they wrote about the verses that are listed.

You don't see how having to obey eternal laws reduces God???

No - and I think neither do you - else you would have explained how it reduces God instead of simply asking a rhetorical question.

Shouldn't we be worshipping the laws that pre-existed God instead of God himself?

Huh? That doesn't even make sense. Why would you worship a law? I wouldn't. I think that's dumb.

[Adomini22]

"The LDS believe that modern prophets have been told by God that He has existed eternally in a co-eternal and unfathomly enormous enviroment wherein He infinitely creates and works with His own innumerable posterity. I can see little reason to argue against it and don't see at all how this downgrades or limits God."

You don't see how having to obey eternal laws reduces God??? Shouldn't we be worshipping the laws that pre-existed God instead of God himself?

Do you believe God could create ex nihilo if he wanted to?

If God has laws, and on some levels he does, then he must abide by them. Otherwise, he would not be God. Because God cannot lie, cheat, decieve, etc. What God says must come to pass......

Good example of mine.... Garden of Eden. God told Adam that in the day he eats the forbidden fruit, he shall surely die. Did he die that same day? No. Did God lie? No. It is written that a day with God is 1000 years. Did Adam die the "day" he ate the fruit? Yes. He did. Adam did not reach 1000 years. He reached like 960 or something....but no mortal can ever reach 1000 years on this earth. The bounds have been set. If someone would be here longer than 1000 years, they would have to be transfigured/translated. No mortal can live 1000 years.......... God also placed Cheribum with a flaming sword to guard the tree of life, because if Adam had partaken of it, Gods plan would come to naught, and his words wouldnt be true, hence, God would not be God..... so means are taken to ensure that his words come to pass.....

[jkjohnson2]

<div class='quotemain'>

"The LDS believe that modern prophets have been told by God that He has existed eternally in a co-eternal and unfathomly enormous enviroment wherein He infinitely creates and works with His own innumerable posterity. I can see little reason to argue against it and don't see at all how this downgrades or limits God."

You don't see how having to obey eternal laws reduces God??? Shouldn't we be worshipping the laws that pre-existed God instead of God himself?

Do you believe God could create ex nihilo if he wanted to?

If God has laws, and on some levels he does, then he must abide by them. Otherwise, he would not be God. Because God cannot lie, cheat, decieve, etc. What God says must come to pass......

Good example of mine.... Garden of Eden. God told Adam that in the day he eats the forbidden fruit, he shall surely die. Did he die that same day? No. Did God lie? No. It is written that a day with God is 1000 years. Did Adam die the "day" he ate the fruit? Yes. He did. Adam did not reach 1000 years. He reached like 960 or something....but no mortal can ever reach 1000 years on this earth. The bounds have been set. If someone would be here longer than 1000 years, they would have to be transfigured/translated. No mortal can live 1000 years.......... God also placed Cheribum with a flaming sword to guard the tree of life, because if Adam had partaken of it, Gods plan would come to naught, and his words wouldnt be true, hence, God would not be God..... so means are taken to ensure that his words come to pass.....

[a-train]

'For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.' (1 Nephi 19:7)

I think this sums up the opinion of the ex nihilist mindset. In ex nihilism, we can't see a righteous and glorious God worthy of all our service and worship with all our heart, might, mind, and strength unless he meets our pre-conceived expectations.

The ex nihilist mindset says: 'Unless God can make something out of nothing, I won't worship Him. He may have created the heavens and earth and all things that in them are by the power of his word, but unless He did it all out of nothing it doesn't impress me and I can't worship Him.' Just as those who weren't impressed with the miracles, the charity, the virtue, and wisdom of Jesus, no matter what He did, they couldn't accept the fact that He IS GOD and worthy of our worship throughout time and eternity.

'This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.' (Jer. 13:10)

-a-train

[sarah_22]

It has nothing to do with being "impressed".

I just don't understand why God isn't able to do something as simple as being able to create. I mean..is it against an eternal law or something?

By the way, as I said before I'm not trying to "ruffle feathers." I truly am interested in mormon theology and thought who better to learn from then mormons themselves. So, thankyou for your responses.

[Snow]

It has nothing to do with being "impressed".

I just don't understand why God isn't able to do something as simple as being able to create.

Hmmm, could you please explain exactly how "simple" it is to create ex nihilo?