Help With Mormon Question

[sarah_22]

Hello all,

I am very new to the whole "chat" thing. I have a question about mormonism though, and thought who better to ask than mormons themselves. Hopefully you guys can help me :)

I am interested in mormonisms' rejection of the ex nihilo theory. I know that mormons believe God doesn't create out of nothing ,but does that also mean that he couldn't even if he wanted to?

I've been reading quite alot on LDS dotrine and have to say i like it alot, but this particular teaching really gets me. I feel it demotes God in so many ways by teaching that he can't do something.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-

[CrimsonKairos]

You feel that God must be able to do anything?

[Brother Dorsey]

Hello all,

I am very new to the whole "chat" thing. I have a question about mormonism though, and thought who better to ask than mormons themselves. Hopefully you guys can help me :)

I am interested in mormonisms' rejection of the ex nihilo theory. I know that mormons believe God doesn't create out of nothing ,but does that also mean that he couldn't even if he wanted to?

I've been reading quite alot on LDS dotrine and have to say i like it alot, but this particular teaching really gets me. I feel it demotes God in so many ways by teaching that he can't do something.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-

Hmmmm, I've heard that God can't lie...cheat, steal or do anything evil. So, let me ask you....what does God not being able to commit an evil act demote him to? Is he a lesser God because he can't commit an evil act? Or, could it possibly be that there are eternal laws that even God must abide by?

As far as Bible reference...nowhere in the Bible does it say God created anything "out of nothing"! As far as the anti-Mormon argument goes "the ex nihilo theory is the only logical explanation of creation" because "eternal matter is a logical impossibility." Well, to put it simply....it really makes no sense at all...eternal matter is an absolute logical possibility! Creating from nothing seems more illogical than anything....but of course coming from those who believe God is merely a wisp of vapor or something I guess anything would be considered logical.

I am man, I was created in the image of my God....I am not a wisp of vapor or an unseen entity...so therefore how could God be....logically speaking of course? And our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was the only "begotten" (physical, earthly, born of woman) son of the Father....do you think that maybe he should LOOK like His Father? I mean logic dictates that God the Father would have a physical body correct? And, if God the father really is my spiritual Father...and I am one of His children as the Bible states in many many places...then logically speaking I must have a Heavenly Mother too, huh? But that's another piece of Logic the antis won't acknowledge either.

Getting back to the ex nihilo theory...it's just that, a theory, a guess if you will....well, I'd rather go with the truth straight out of the mouth of a Prophet of God...from the Lord Himself. I am just so full of joy to know that the Heavens are open to us and the Lord is guiding us in this day, that we have the fullness of the Gospel and have been given once again those eternal truths that were lost to the world. The Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled....Christ's church has been restored to the Earth, the keys of the Holy Priesthood of God have been restored to mankind and no unhallowed hand can stop the kingdom of God!

[Snow]

Hello all,

I am very new to the whole "chat" thing. I have a question about mormonism though, and thought who better to ask than mormons themselves. Hopefully you guys can help me :)

I am interested in mormonisms' rejection of the ex nihilo theory. I know that mormons believe God doesn't create out of nothing ,but does that also mean that he couldn't even if he wanted to?

I've been reading quite alot on LDS dotrine and have to say i like it alot, but this particular teaching really gets me. I feel it demotes God in so many ways by teaching that he can't do something.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-

First, who teaches that God can't do something?

Second, how does a belief that God can't do something demote Him? If God can't grill a steak so large that He can't eat it, does that make him less of a god?

Third, we believe that God is omnipotent, ergo God possesses all power that there is. There is no power available that God does not possess.

Forth, the Bible makes no clear statement about creation ex nihilo early Christians did not believe in it. It did not appear until the late 2nd century.

[sarah_22]

Brother Dorsey: First -Joseph Smith said that God does not have the "power" to create. So that is a power he does not possess.

I don't know why, it just seems deeply offensive to me to believe that God couldn't do something even if he wanted to.

Sorry..I meant to address Snow-

[roman]

Forth, the Bible makes no clear statement about creation ex nihilo early Christians did not believe in it. It did not appear until the late 2nd century.

ATTENTION ATTENTION THREAD INTERUPTION--------------------WARNING WARNING WARNING

snow, I would be very carful about using the statement that the Bible doesn't speak clearly about a subject. As the Bible is silent on pre-exsistnce,etenal progression and baptism for the dead----just to name a few of lds beliefs without a Bible based foundation.

now back to the tread------and yes I'm having a slow day

[checkerboy]

Forth, the Bible makes no clear statement about creation ex nihilo early Christians did not believe in it. It did not appear until the late 2nd century.

ATTENTION ATTENTION THREAD INTERUPTION--------------------WARNING WARNING WARNING

snow, I would be very carful about using the statement that the Bible doesn't speak clearly about a subject. As the Bible is silent on pre-exsistnce,etenal progression and baptism for the dead----just to name a few of lds beliefs without a Bible based foundation.

now back to the tread------and yes I'm having a slow day

Actually the Bible does speak to those three that you mention. In Jeramiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians speaks of the three degrees of glory. He also talks about baptism for the dead in the same letter. Now I know that most people don't consider any of these to mean what they actually do but that is because misguided individuals try to promote their philosophies insted of actually taking time to study and pray about the truth of these principles that were clearly apparant to the early church.

[prisonchaplain]

Is it really being suggested here that Christians did not believe God created the world in total, until the 19th century? I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that thoughout the ages, when most people read, "In the beginning, God created..." they assumed it meant that God started the world--he got it going.

On the other hand, it might be accurate to say that, in response to scientific discoveries and theories of the 19th century, the first thorough-going theological descriptions of creation that was out of nothing were developed.

I'm willing to be corrected on this, but it's my 'gut reaction.'

[roman]

Forth, the Bible makes no clear statement about creation ex nihilo early Christians did not believe in it. It did not appear until the late 2nd century.

ATTENTION ATTENTION THREAD INTERUPTION--------------------WARNING WARNING WARNING

snow, I would be very carful about using the statement that the Bible doesn't speak clearly about a subject. As the Bible is silent on pre-exsistnce,etenal progression and baptism for the dead----just to name a few of lds beliefs without a Bible based foundation.

now back to the tread------and yes I'm having a slow day

Actually the Bible does speak to those three that you mention. In Jeramiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians speaks of the three degrees of glory. He also talks about baptism for the dead in the same letter. Now I know that most people don't consider any of these to mean what they actually do but that is because misguided individuals try to promote their philosophies insted of actually taking time to study and pray about the truth of these principles that were clearly apparant to the early church.

you my friend are just flat wrong----------------where did you study scriptural interpertation and application to know your way is the only right way

And my point[i was just having fun with snow] ---was clear cut biblical reference of which you can provide none------critical word being clear

[sarah_22]

An expanisive vision of an infinite universe with infinite possiblilities is what I thought mormonism what all about, which is why I find it so difficult to believe there is something he cannot do.

In a infinite universe with infinite possibilities, how is it possible that there is something that cannot be done?

Put simply, the possibilities that whatever you might imagine MUST exist somewhere given that there are infinite universes with infinite variations.

[Dale]

http://www.fairlds.org has a links section to it's FAIR Wiki website. In the What's new articles section it has a link to that website also. Look up Creation Ex-Nihilo and I recall a few apologetic treatments of the subject.

[miztrniceguy]

"In Jeremiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. "

how else could this be interpreted other than He knew him before he was a life in the belly?

[CrimsonKairos]

First -Joseph Smith said that God does not have the "power" to create. So that is a power he does not possess.

Whoa, what in the world are you talking about? Please provide the quote from Joseph Smith you are referring to. I've never heard anything remotely similar to what you assert.

An expanisive vision of an infinite universe with infinite possiblilities is what I thought mormonism what all about...

What gave you that impression?

how else could this be interpreted other than He knew him before he was a life in the belly?

Oh there are plenty of ways to interpret that another way. They just don't make sense.

[roman]

"In Jeremiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. "

how else could this be interpreted other than He knew him before he was a life in the belly?

What prompted me to even enter this thread was to play alittle on the words of snow[in a good natured way] on his claim of the Bible speaking CLEARLY on a subject

Of which the verse in Jerimiah does NOT speak clearly on preexsistence. Listen another way to look at this is becauseGod is all knowing and knows the end fron the beginning simply means that even before God formed Adam he knew ----in his forknowledge who he would form. That verse in no way limits its interpertation[or even remotly leans that way] to preexsistence

[sarah_22]

CrimsonKairos: The Joseph Smith quote is from the KFD. "I might with boldness proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all."

Mormons refer frequently to a God who "creates" worlds without number..implying an infinite universe.

[prisonchaplain]

"In Jeremiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. "

how else could this be interpreted other than He knew him before he was a life in the belly?

The verse you cite, ironically, is a favorite of pro-life Christians. :)

Beyond that, historically, the verse is seen as demonstrating God's omniscience. When it says "He knew us," we take it to mean that he knew he was going to make us, he knew what we would do, how we would act and react, even what decisions we would make. We do not read into the verse relationship, but rather "foreknowledge."

[Snow]

Brother Dorsey: First -Joseph Smith said that God does not have the "power" to create. So that is a power he does not possess.

I don't know why, it just seems deeply offensive to me to believe that God couldn't do something even if he wanted to.

Sorry..I meant to address Snow-

Really?

Quote please.

ATTENTION ATTENTION THREAD INTERUPTION--------------------WARNING WARNING WARNING

snow, I would be very carful about using the statement that the Bible doesn't speak clearly about a subject. As the Bible is silent on pre-exsistnce,etenal progression and baptism for the dead----just to name a few of lds beliefs without a Bible based foundation.

now back to the tread------and yes I'm having a slow day

1. Why should I be careful? I am correct and what need for anything beyond that is there?

2. The bible is hardly silent about pre-existance or baptism for the dead.

3. What is your point? That God is prohibited from revealing something that isn't in the bible?

Paul in his letter to the Corinthians speaks of the three degrees of glory.

The three degrees of glory are not the same thing as eternal progression.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/a...ression_eom.htm

[Snow]

And my point[i was just having fun with snow] ---was clear cut biblical reference of which you can provide none------critical word being clear

Actually, that wasn't your point. You didn't assert that there was not a clear (or explicit) reference in the bible. You asserted that the bible was silent, ergo zero statement, clear or otherwise.

Either way, you are mistaken. The bible makes very clear statements.

1 Cor 15:29 is clear and explicit. There is no inference or suggestion.

Likewise many scriptures refer to a pre-existence, explicitly, for example: John 17:4, 5 or Job 38:4, 7.

<div class='quotemain'>

"In Jeremiah God says "before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" - pre-mortal life. "

how else could this be interpreted other than He knew him before he was a life in the belly?

The verse you cite, ironically, is a favorite of pro-life Christians. :)

Beyond that, historically, the verse is seen as demonstrating God's omniscience. When it says "He knew us," we take it to mean that he knew he was going to make us, he knew what we would do, how we would act and react, even what decisions we would make. We do not read into the verse relationship, but rather "foreknowledge."

That's one intepretation - that's not what the scripture says however. If the scripture was meant to speak to omniscience, then it could have said so.

[CrimsonKairos]

CrimsonKairos: The Joseph Smith quote is from the KFD. "I might with boldness proclaim from the housetop that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all."

Okay, you pulled the bait and switch trick. You originally said that Mormons don't believe that God has "power" to create. You left it at that, and that could mean a variety of things including that He can't even create a world...which He obviously did.

I believe that what Joseph Smith was saying was that God did not create you or me out of nothing. What do I mean by saying "you and me?" Joseph was saying that God could not and did not create our consciousness, the little "I Am" that resides within our spirit bodies (like our spirit bodies reside within our physical bodies).

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abraham 3:22)

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29, emphasis mine)

So Joseph Smith was not saying God does not have the "power" to create, period. He was saying God doesn't have the power to create intelligences or the little "I Am" that He clothes with a spirit body prior to clothing that spirit body with a physical body.

We are all tripartite beings, and all that statement from the KFD means is that God did not and cannot create the core part of us that dwells inside our spiritual and physical bodies.

Mormons refer frequently to a God who "creates" worlds without number..implying an infinite universe.

Yes, but it's quite a jump to go from saying God creates an infinite number of planets to saying what you originally said in post #10 which was:

In a infinite universe with infinite possibilities, how is it possible that there is something that cannot be done?

No scriptures teach that there are infinite possibilities in the universe, just that God creates worlds without number. That is hardly saying that God has the power to do anything He wants.

[sarah_22]

Okay, you pulled the bait and switch trick. You originally said that Mormons don't believe that God has "power" to create. You left it at that, and that could mean a variety of things including that He can't even create a world...which He obviously did.

I don't understand your point.

Yes...that's exactly what I said,mormons don't believe God has the power to create. When talking about creating worlds it all comes down to "matter" which makes up you and me and everything we see. So even when mormons talk about God creating..he's not, he just organizing! Which is my point..as I said before Joseph Smith said God couldn't create out of nothing, which to me is quite offensive.

[Snow]

Yes...that's exactly what I said,mormons don't believe God has the power to create. When talking about creating worlds it all comes down to "matter" which makes up you and me and everything we see. So even when mormons talk about God creating..he's not, he just organizing! Which is my point..as I said before Joseph Smith said God couldn't create out of nothing, which to me is quite offensive.

1. You are mistaken. I am LDS. I believe God has the power to create.

2. 2nd request: Quote please.

[CrimsonKairos]

If you can't fathom that "create" and "organize" can be synonyms, I guess that's where you're at.

You could argue that God didn't "create" the world or our bodies because He was simply "organizing" pre-existing matter according to divine patterns.

You could also argue that Da Vinci didn't "create" art because he was simply "organizing" pre-existing paints into color patterns on pre-existing canvas.

Personally, I think that would be an absurd position to take.

[Jason]

Don't feed the Trolls. :)

[CrimsonKairos]

But it's so tempting!!!

You're right, I'm packing up my bag of snacks and heading elsewhere. B)

[bunnzy]

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

Eat this troll