Palerider Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 You can have your Universal health Care....you get what you pay for.....I don't want it...... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 The majority here do not want universal healthcare. I'm not sold on it either. However, the status quo is unacceptable. And, somehow, we will subsidize the uninsured. So...ideas for a better way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabelma Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Gabelma what you are describing is classical liberalism, which would today be defined as libertarianism. The ideas of of classical liberalism are pretty much 180 degrees out of phase with the modern usage of the word.Maybe but the modern Liberal Democrat Partry in the UK is the party that was at one time called Whigs. And they are still very much centre politics and nothing extreme, maybe its just because I am British and we have several different parties to represent us and let Heavenly Father choose our Head of State lolFor me as a Brit the idea of using the term liberal to describe anything extreme seems bizarre - Tony Blair technically would be a Socialist (more of the champagne variety though). Even our right wing politicians wouldn't consider getting rid of Health Care that was free at the point of entry.<div class='quotemain'> My politics waver between Green/Socialist/Anarchist with a few very right wing ideas thrown in non of them are centre politics.-CharleyNice to see there's a couple of us around! Not sure about the very right wing ideas mind you...have to let me know what they are before I start to agree with ya!umm lol I am all for making prisons self sufficient, life meaning life and I personally think corrupt politicians should face the death penalty (only time I do agree with it:) - my husband dropped through the floor when I said so I should think so when they shot the Chinese guy), I would also expel bullies from schools permenantly no chance no nothing let their parents educate them at home. I have a few slightly extreme views for when I finally get given my dictatorship of the world:)Charley<div class='quotemain'>As I said on another thread, my uncle is a cardiac surgeon in Erie PA. Called that because its on Lake Erie, very close to Canada. He tells me he treats more Canadians then American's, because they don't want to risk their lives waiting months and months, sometimes even a year or more for simple heart surgeries. In 2001 I went to Canada to see a doctor who was able to help diagnose me. This was after, over the course of two years, going to six doctors in the U.S. whose offices were full of incompetency, whose staff lied to my face, and whose doctors just could not take the time to help me figure out what was wrong with me due to HMO/insurance limitations. I met with the Canadian doctor three times, and then was able to go back to Utah and tell the doctors what was wrong with me. From then on, I e-mailed the doctor in Canada for six more months, and then told my GP in UT what to do. Luckily my GP was very cooperative and worked with my Canadian doctor. Other doctors I had met with would never have allowed such a thing.Eventually I found a doctor who was a specialist in fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome and I have worked with her exclusively ever since. I believe that if you have a health problem that requires the best technology, you will get the best care in America. If your health problem does not, I believe you are in danger of receiving sub-standard care, even dangerously so. I've seen it.I’ll never forget my initial trip to Canada. I felt so sick, couldn’t think straight, lost my license (luckily a woman found it in the bathroom), and ended up on an Alaskan Airlines flight that kept dropping 50,000 feet, and finally landed in this tiny airport in Victoria. When I went through customs and told them I was seeing a doctor all five of the employees stopped and practically held their guns in my face! (Little hyperbole there.) They made me go talk to the supervisor and he kept grilling me about the doctor, and I honestly didn’t know why. I didn’t understand about their free healthcare system, and apparently a LOT of Americans try to sneak through to use it. Finally I broke down and just sobbed and sobbed. He felt bad and called me a cab.I will always be grateful for my Canadian doctor who spent hours with me helping me to understand why my body was rebelling against me and making me feel so ill. I will also always be so grateful to him for being willing to take the time to talk with my American doctor, often an hour or more at a time. I couldn't have been happier with my, admittedly, non-emergency, Canadian healthcare.ElphabaI agree so far my expereince in the US of hospitals has been shocking, I'd rather go to one in India lol - I am horrified at the archaic way women are treated during pregnancy and labour etc I thought ours were dirty and the patient care can be bad but its nothing compared to what I saw whilst in California.The majority here do not want universal healthcare. I'm not sold on it either. However, the status quo is unacceptable. And, somehow, we will subsidize the uninsured.So...ideas for a better way?If you go for a mixed system like we have the NHS subsidises private health, most of the systems in Western Europe you get the upgrade option:) Your health insurance will be cheaper and you can get nicer hospitals-Charley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 The majority here do not want universal healthcare. I'm not sold on it either. However, the status quo is unacceptable. And, somehow, we will subsidize the uninsured.So...ideas for a better way?other than raising everyones taxes even higher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 <div class='quotemain'>The majority here do not want universal healthcare. I'm not sold on it either. However, the status quo is unacceptable. And, somehow, we will subsidize the uninsured.So...ideas for a better way?other than raising everyones taxes even higherIf it meant everyone had health care in this country, I would gladly pay more taxes.Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushka Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 <div class='quotemain'>Gabelma what you are describing is classical liberalism, which would today be defined as libertarianism. The ideas of of classical liberalism are pretty much 180 degrees out of phase with the modern usage of the word.Maybe but the modern Liberal Democrat Partry in the UK is the party that was at one time called Whigs. And they are still very much centre politics and nothing extreme, maybe its just because I am British and we have several different parties to represent us and let Heavenly Father choose our Head of State lolFor me as a Brit the idea of using the term liberal to describe anything extreme seems bizarre - Tony Blair technically would be a Socialist (more of the champagne variety though). Even our right wing politicians wouldn't consider getting rid of Health Care that was free at the point of entry.I agree totally with you here Charley...<div class='quotemain'> My politics waver between Green/Socialist/Anarchist with a few very right wing ideas thrown in non of them are centre politics.-CharleyNice to see there's a couple of us around! Not sure about the very right wing ideas mind you...have to let me know what they are before I start to agree with ya!umm lol I am all for making prisons self sufficient, life meaning life and I personally think corrupt politicians should face the death penalty (only time I do agree with it:) - my husband dropped through the floor when I said so I should think so when they shot the Chinese guy), I would also expel bullies from schools permenantly no chance no nothing let their parents educate them at home. I have a few slightly extreme views for when I finally get given my dictatorship of the world:)Charley I don't know about making prisons self sufficient, you'd have to explain that to me more thoroughly, but I do agree that life should be life. I can't recall the Chinese guy you meant, so not sure about corrupt politicians being subject to the death penalty either...I think it would depend on in what way they were corrupt and the outcome of their actions. You're spot on with your opinion of bullies in school, I'm currently looking for another school to send my son to, because he has been bullied for 3 years at his current one and is so scared of returning that he's started vomitting!<div class='quotemain'>As I said on another thread, my uncle is a cardiac surgeon in Erie PA. Called that because its on Lake Erie, very close to Canada. He tells me he treats more Canadians then American's, because they don't want to risk their lives waiting months and months, sometimes even a year or more for simple heart surgeries. In 2001 I went to Canada to see a doctor who was able to help diagnose me. This was after, over the course of two years, going to six doctors in the U.S. whose offices were full of incompetency, whose staff lied to my face, and whose doctors just could not take the time to help me figure out what was wrong with me due to HMO/insurance limitations. I met with the Canadian doctor three times, and then was able to go back to Utah and tell the doctors what was wrong with me. From then on, I e-mailed the doctor in Canada for six more months, and then told my GP in UT what to do. Luckily my GP was very cooperative and worked with my Canadian doctor. Other doctors I had met with would never have allowed such a thing.Eventually I found a doctor who was a specialist in fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome and I have worked with her exclusively ever since. I believe that if you have a health problem that requires the best technology, you will get the best care in America. If your health problem does not, I believe you are in danger of receiving sub-standard care, even dangerously so. I've seen it.I’ll never forget my initial trip to Canada. I felt so sick, couldn’t think straight, lost my license (luckily a woman found it in the bathroom), and ended up on an Alaskan Airlines flight that kept dropping 50,000 feet, and finally landed in this tiny airport in Victoria. When I went through customs and told them I was seeing a doctor all five of the employees stopped and practically held their guns in my face! (Little hyperbole there.) They made me go talk to the supervisor and he kept grilling me about the doctor, and I honestly didn’t know why. I didn’t understand about their free healthcare system, and apparently a LOT of Americans try to sneak through to use it. Finally I broke down and just sobbed and sobbed. He felt bad and called me a cab.I will always be grateful for my Canadian doctor who spent hours with me helping me to understand why my body was rebelling against me and making me feel so ill. I will also always be so grateful to him for being willing to take the time to talk with my American doctor, often an hour or more at a time. I couldn't have been happier with my, admittedly, non-emergency, Canadian healthcare.ElphabaI agree so far my expereince in the US of hospitals has been shocking, I'd rather go to one in India lol - I am horrified at the archaic way women are treated during pregnancy and labour etc I thought ours were dirty and the patient care can be bad but its nothing compared to what I saw whilst in California.The majority here do not want universal healthcare. I'm not sold on it either. However, the status quo is unacceptable. And, somehow, we will subsidize the uninsured.So...ideas for a better way?If you go for a mixed system like we have the NHS subsidises private health, most of the systems in Western Europe you get the upgrade option:) Your health insurance will be cheaper and you can get nicer hospitals-Charley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 <div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The majority here do not want universal healthcare. I'm not sold on it either. However, the status quo is unacceptable. And, somehow, we will subsidize the uninsured.So...ideas for a better way?other than raising everyones taxes even higherIf it meant everyone had health care in this country, I would gladly pay more taxes.ElphabaI would not....my taxes are high enough now.....and I also know if the next president is a Dem.....my taxes will go higher.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Those that have health insurance already subsidize those that don't. I have a friend who once worked in the billing department at a local hospital. She told me they charge those with insurance a much higher rate to cover those that don't have insurance. That way they at least recoup some of the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Those that have health insurance already subsidize those that don't. I have a friend who once worked in the billing department at a local hospital. She told me they charge those with insurance a much higher rate to cover those that don't have insurance. That way they at least recoup some of the money.That's one reason I wouldn't mind if my taxes were higher. However, it's not solely because I'm a Mother Theresa wannabe. For example, my daughter is one of the "working poor." She doesn't have insurance, and if she were to become seriously ill she wouldn't have the money to pay for her health care. She would likely stay out of work for a much longer period of time because she couldn't afford to treat her illness, and all the time she was out of work she wouldn't receive a paycheck. Therefore, she wouldn't be paying into the tax base.However, if there were a national health care in place, my daughter could have her illness treated in a timely manner, return to work, and begin paying back into the tax base sooner, which would then benefit me, as my taxes would not likely have to be raised again. I realize that's a very simplistic example. But you get the basic idea. The working poor who have no health insurance who are ill but can't afford to see the doctor are actually costing us more than if we had a health care system that could treat their illnesses in a timely manner. Plus it's just the ethical thing to do for our fellow human beings. At least that's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it! Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 <div class='quotemain'>Those that have health insurance already subsidize those that don't. I have a friend who once worked in the billing department at a local hospital. She told me they charge those with insurance a much higher rate to cover those that don't have insurance. That way they at least recoup some of the money.That's one reason I wouldn't mind if my taxes were higher. However, it's not solely because I'm a Mother Theresa wannabe. For example, my daughter is one of the "working poor." She doesn't have insurance, and if she were to become seriously ill she wouldn't have the money to pay for her health care. She would likely stay out of work for a much longer period of time because she couldn't afford to treat her illness, and all the time she was out of work she wouldn't receive a paycheck. Therefore, she wouldn't be paying into the tax base.However, if there were a national health care in place, my daughter could have her illness treated in a timely manner, return to work, and begin paying back into the tax base sooner, which would then benefit me, as my taxes would not likely have to be raised again. I realize that's a very simplistic example. But you get the basic idea. The working poor who have no health insurance who are ill but can't afford to see the doctor are actually costing us more than if we had a health care system that could treat their illnesses in a timely manner. Plus it's just the ethical thing to do for our fellow human beings. At least that's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it! Elphaba Hey you can't use MY line. I don't know what my opinion is on this yet. Unfortunately with the job I have now it offers no benefits such as health insurance. Really scary thing actually. Fortunately most of my life I've been reasonably healthy but you just never know what may happen. My employer can't offer it. With the employee base we have and such a high turnover of employees (which is normal for this kind of business) it just isn't feasible for him to offer it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgallan Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 I feel your worry. I am 47, with the chance I have all kinds of pre-existing conditions, common for my age group, that could be treated, but may not be diagnosed because I can't afford insurance for myself. There isn't an ache or pain in my chest that doesn't make me wonder. It bites in that I am a single dad as well. But the money goes into the kid so I forgo the insurance. For me it's a calculated risk...... I probably don't have anything bad, nor will I get it. If I have an emergency where I can't pay the bills then I won't. They won't take a car or house and I don't have much else. Otherwise.... if I die... then I die. I don't worry about such things. Unless they find cures for the wear and tear I am currently putting on my body..... I don't plan on living much past 60 in any event. And there are about 50 families I know who would take wonderful care of my child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 . Hey you can't use MY line.I promise, Pam, I'll never do it again. I just HAD to this one time. It fit so perfectly! What can I say--you're a genius! I don't know what my opinion is on this yet. Unfortunately with the job I have now it offers no benefits such as health insurance. Really scary thing actually. Fortunately most of my life I've been reasonably healthy but you just never know what may happen. My employer can't offer it. With the employee base we have and such a high turnover of employees (which is normal for this kind of business) it just isn't feasible for him to offer it.Yes, you are in the same situation as my daughter. It scares me that something will happen to her that will cost more than, say, $50--she'll be in real trouble if she has to stop working.That's often how families end up on the streets. They live paycheck to paycheck, with no health insurance, and get hit with an illness that takes up their entire months' money. I wish there were an easy solution. And there are programs that help many people, but not near enough. So that is why I would gladly pay more taxes if it meant everyone, including you and my daughter, had access to the same healthcare everyone else in the country does.Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 And unfortunately at this point I make "too much" money to qualify for any state funded programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushka Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 I'm glad to see that there is some support, at least, for some kind of National Insurance/National Health Service in the USA on here. I am an example of 1 of many in the UK who has benefitted lots from the NHS, before I was working, when I was working, and since I stopped working. I was born with heart trouble for which I've had 2 lots of open heart surgery already, I've been told that my operation will have to be repeated when I'm in my 60's and will probably be still available to me in my 80's if I live that long. I also had emergency surgery to remove a blood clot from behind my eye a few years ago...and have ongoing treatment for high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholestrol, depression, arthritis, tennis elbow in both arms and a further heart condition, atrial fibrillation, due to the damage to my heart prior to me receiving my artificial aorta valve 11 years ago now I'm in my 40's. Were it not for the NHS and the National Insurance scheme that the whole of the UK pays into when working, also the Govt. pays 'a stamp' towards the National Insurance when somebody cannot work for medical reasons, I would not be able to afford the treatment that I am receiving now, and my parents would not have been able to pay for the numerous hospital appointments and stays that I've had since I was 3 weeks old. In addition to the operations and treatments already mentioned, I have had a number of other exploratory operations and more minor operations for other conditions over the years too, as well as excellent care during and after 2 pregnancies. My children have also undergone operations in hospital and had to have other medical care too, which I would not have been able to afford under any other system. Often Insurance companies either charge much higher premiums for those people with existing conditions which may need treatment more frequently, or will not insure you at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 I feel your worry. I am 47, with the chance I have all kinds of pre-existing conditions, common for my age group, that could be treated, but may not be diagnosed because I can't afford insurance for myself. There isn't an ache or pain in my chest that doesn't make me wonder. It bites in that I am a single dad as well. But the money goes into the kid so I forgo the insurance. For me it's a calculated risk...... I probably don't have anything bad, nor will I get it. If I have an emergency where I can't pay the bills then I won't. They won't take a car or house and I don't have much else. Otherwise.... if I die... then I die. I don't worry about such things. Unless they find cures for the wear and tear I am currently putting on my body..... I don't plan on living much past 60 in any event. And there are about 50 families I know who would take wonderful care of my child.I think a lot of people feel like you do today. They feel helpless if something life-threatening happens. That's what I mean about the working poor. It's not like you're poor per se. But you can't afford life insurance, and that puts your whole family at risk. Sometimes I wonder if the people opposed to taxes being used for health insurance for all Americans are even aware of how many families there are who simply cannot afford health care and are merely pay checks away from financial ruin. Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Somebody help me out here. Didn't Romney come out with a plan that actually worked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Somebody help me out here. Didn't Romney come out with a plan that actually worked?I haven't heard about that. It would be interesting to read about it if anyone has any resources they can post a link to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Somebody help me out here. Didn't Romney come out with a plan that actually worked?yes he did....and there was an article about it in the Washington Post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted August 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 <div class='quotemain'>Somebody help me out here. Didn't Romney come out with a plan that actually worked?yes he did....and there was an article about it in the Washington PostPale, are you up for the Romney plan, on a national level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 <div class='quotemain'>Somebody help me out here. Didn't Romney come out with a plan that actually worked?yes he did....and there was an article about it in the Washington PostPale how long ago? I really would be interesting in reading about it. Maybe I will just have to google it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 <div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Somebody help me out here. Didn't Romney come out with a plan that actually worked?yes he did....and there was an article about it in the Washington PostPale, are you up for the Romney plan, on a national level?yes....I do like his idea ........I just don't want my taxes going higher because of it.....I am still not a fan of universal health care if it means I have to pay more taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Ogre Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 yes....I do like his idea ........I just don't want my taxes going higher because of it.....I am still not a fan of universal health care if it means I have to pay more taxes.Idealist!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 <div class='quotemain'>yes....I do like his idea ........I just don't want my taxes going higher because of it.....I am still not a fan of universal health care if it means I have to pay more taxes.Idealist!!!LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 What's been the result of all these reforms? Although the reforms were signed into law just over a year ago, the changes are dramatic. The same uninsured individual whose choice was formerly limited to a policy with a $335 a month insurance premium with no drug benefits and a $5,000 deductible now can purchase quality private insurance, which includes coverage for prescription drugs, office and emergency room visits, and a $2,000 deductible, for $175 per month. Between July 1, 2006 and May 1, 2007, nearly 125,000 previously uninsured residents of Massachusetts got health insurance coverage. Romney's Health PlanElphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 What's been the result of all these reforms? Although the reforms were signed into law just over a year ago, the changes are dramatic. The same uninsured individual whose choice was formerly limited to a policy with a $335 a month insurance premium with no drug benefits and a $5,000 deductible now can purchase quality private insurance, which includes coverage for prescription drugs, office and emergency room visits, and a $2,000 deductible, for $175 per month. Between July 1, 2006 and May 1, 2007, nearly 125,000 previously uninsured residents of Massachusetts got health insurance coverage. Romney's Health PlanElphabawhats wrong emma.....not able to find the wash post article..... <div class='quotemain'>What's been the result of all these reforms? Although the reforms were signed into law just over a year ago, the changes are dramatic. The same uninsured individual whose choice was formerly limited to a policy with a $335 a month insurance premium with no drug benefits and a $5,000 deductible now can purchase quality private insurance, which includes coverage for prescription drugs, office and emergency room visits, and a $2,000 deductible, for $175 per month. Between July 1, 2006 and May 1, 2007, nearly 125,000 previously uninsured residents of Massachusetts got health insurance coverage. Romney's Health PlanElphabawhats wrong emma.....not able to find the wash post article..... http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2...let_states.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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