Universal Health Care

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not there yet. Not ready to buy into government taking over 17% of the economy. But, wow is the American system skewed! My family is blessed with fairly decent health insurance. We pay a little over $200 a month for our premiums, $20 co-pays (a bit more for specialists), and we put in another $120 for a health savings account (tax-free). Even so, we find the healthcare system clumsy, and somewhat antiquated.

I can't imagine if we did not have employer-supported insurance. Also, medicaid and medicare are probably a lot more convulated than what I do have.

Then I consider the people who have no insurance--a good number of them full-time workers. Also, a consumer magazine we get points out that insurance has no incentive to keep providers' cost down, because they make a percentage of expenses.

Perhaps we should get rid of insurance all together. If consumers paid directly, costs would surely go down. Otherwise, perhaps a single universal-pay system is what is needed. I do not know. When I was a bit younger, I was amused and angered by Hillary's attempted "take over" of American healthcare. Now, I'm not so sure.

[Traveler]

I try to be sensible about things. Why I oppose nationalized health care and national insurance.

1. The basic concept of insurance is to cover catastrophic events that would bankrupt a person or family. Insurance is not intended for common events. If you insure for normal costs you are working against yourself because you must pay to cover the insurance company as well as for your health care. Co-pay is deceptive. You should pay the full amount for normal or standard health care – any other program will become too expensive and will bankrupt all that participate and will make normal health care too expensive for normal people (which we already have).

2. The US government has demonstrated that it requires over 50% operating costs to run any social program. It may not start out at such high cost but every opportunity there will be lobbyist convincing legislators that more money is needed to run the program and because of the nature of public need – no one will dare oppose improving the program. This means that you can double what ever your cost is now in taxes and that means that every one must pay twice as much for the same benefit they currently enjoy. The great lie of our modern era is that the rich will pay taxes for social programs. This has never been the case at anytime in history and it is not the case now. In the USA taxes are paid by the middle class and as taxes have increased the economic stability of the middles class has diminished.

Yes there should be health insurance for extreme ticket items in health care. I have no problem with a government program to subsidize such a health plan for the poor but I oppose anyone having access to anything without their personal investment and commitment (even concerning divine salvation) – I believe to do otherwise destroys character and discourages initiative and prudence and encourages the prodigal and waist.

I also think it is interesting that the two biggest health problems in the USA are associated to improper diet and exercise and the two most often methods of treatment offered by our health care is drugs and surgery.

The other thing I find interesting is that our health care does not want to help anyone that intends to pay directly for their care.

The Traveler

[Palerider]

I know we have hashed this on other threads....but I am not and never will be in favor of Universal Health Care...... B) .....

[Moksha]

Who needs this Brother's Keepers stuff? One only needs sufficient ammo and bandaids for their compound and undersground bunker and that is enough.

Let those industrialized countries care for their citizens. If we suffer and die, it is fore-ordained.

[prisonchaplain]

IF universal healthcare is not the answer, and our current system is off-base, what's the answer? Maybe raising the minimum wage, and wiping out employer-supplied healthcare? Like I said, if it isn't paid for upfront, consumers will drive the costs down. If I need stitches for my child, and the hospital charges $300, the clinic charges $125, and Walmart's Certified Nurses Aid will do it for $39, I'll go to Walmart. As it is, I drive to the nearest available provider (too often the hospital). Why should I care--it's $20 for me, regardless.

[a-train]

See what Mitt Romney did in Mass. They have 'universal health-care' so-to-speak. What's the difference? Employed people no longer have the option to opt-out of insurance all together. Everyone in the state is compelled to own a minimum policy and those who can't afford one will be given one. I understand premiums dropped almost as much as 50%! Why?!?!? Because now all those people not paying the insurance companies, ARE paying.

Mitt claims that uninsured hospital visits alone were costing the whole system millions, which all trickled back to the premiums of the insured minority.

We just need to be smarter consumers with regard to buying insurance. I am self employed and 31 with a 28 year old wife and a 3 year old child. None of us have any pre-existing conditions or ongoing issues whatsoever. Blue cross charged us $660 a month (3 times our car payment). We had co-pays, and other fees, but NO deductible. What a sham!

I switched to a Humana plan with a $2000 individual deductable and a $5000 family deductible and NO copays. My premium is now $235 a month. I went from a $7920 annual premium to a $2820 annual premium.

'So what if you have something happen, can you afford $5,000 in unexpected deductibles?' -insurance salesman.

'Heck yeah! Even if that DOES happen, my total payout in deductibles AND premium is only $7820, $100 less than YOUR premium alone! And, I get $5000 worth of health care to boot!' -smart consumer

What Traveler said is true, ask your Doctor. Insurance should not be involved in a routine check up or a minor, or inexpensive procedure. It should be reserved for the big ticket jobs. But, the insurance companies are trying to get a piece of every last job your Doc does. And, the corps are paying out for it because the employees want ZERO deductibles.

This makes insurance more pricey, therefore more people opt-out which makes it even MORE pricey, which makes even MORE people want to opt-out and just hit the hospital with a visit and trash the bill. See the cycle?

I think the answer is at the state level. Let each state determine a reasonable minimum for their people and mandate that everyone must own some insurance, just like all of our motorists out there.

I think Mitt and his crew are right. Hillary is just ridiculous and the whole socialized medicine thing is retarded. I don't need Washington involved in my healthcare 1200 miles away. Both me and my doctor can handle all this without any trips to the east coast. Keep the FEDS out of local issues!!!!!!

-a-train

[Moksha]

What is a thread like this doing in the Gospel Discussion forum anyway?

[gabelpa]

Coming from a place where I can take my healthcare for grante, OK its creaky, but if I get reasonable Private Health Insurance then I get 5 star treatment lol, our Private Health Care is cheaper and better than yours because the NHS takes the slack from it.

My biggest shock was coming back from my Father in Laws funeral to find on the answer machine a pile of phone calls demanding to know who would pay for the ambulance (think there were 6) now my in Laws had good jobs and good health insurance. Between them my in Laws have worked for the Air Force for over 80 years, yet the medical services could show no respect when he died When I had pre-eclampsia there was no question I would get an ambulance into hospital, my husband is still hesitant because in his mind ambulances are expensive anda last resort.

-Charley

[Fiannan]

Good article on health care and the US compared to other nations.

The U.S. ranking is influenced heavily by the number of people -- 45 million -- without medical insurance. As I reported in previous columns, our government aggravates that problem by making insurance artificially expensive with, for example, mandates for coverage that many people would not choose and forbidding us to buy policies from companies in another state.

Even with these interventions, the 45 million figure is misleading. Thirty-seven percent of that group live in households making more than $50,000 a year, says the U.S. Census Bureau. Nineteen percent are in households making more than $75,000 a year; 20 percent are not citizens, and 33 percent are eligible for existing government programs but are not enrolled.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/..._on_whos_h.html

[Aphrodite]

What happens if you dont have health insurance? Would a hospital refuse to treat you? I cant imagine having to fork out a hundred quid a month for health insurance, altho my taxes go towards the NHS I suppose. I know the NHS isnt perfect but I feel lucky its there. What do lower income familis do, or people on benefits???

[Fiannan]

Actually, the people who are greatest at risk are people who work for businesses that pay very little but intentionally work the hours for employees so they don't qualify for the company's group health insurance plan. These people may work 30 hours a week but the money they make isn't enough to pay for much more than rent and food expenses. They are worse off if they are single, or married with no kids. If they had a family they might qualify for food stamps and state Medicaid -- which covers you for a lot of medical expenses. So if youo are poor you get state coverage but if you make just over the poverty level you have to pay it all yourself.

At the same time this segment of the population is only cared for by the Republicans because that is where much of the military recruites come from and by the Democrats only for votes they can get if they can manipulate people into believing they really care for the working lower middle class.

Want proof? Well, who do you think gets hurt the most by illegal immigration?

[Elphaba]

Actually, the people who are greatest at risk are people who work for businesses that pay very little but intentionally work the hours for employees so they don't qualify for the company's group health insurance plan. These people may work 30 hours a week but the money they make isn't enough to pay for much more than rent and food expenses. They are worse off if they are single, or married with no kids. If they had a family they might qualify for food stamps and state Medicaid -- which covers you for a lot of medical expenses. So if youo are poor you get state coverage but if you make just over the poverty level you have to pay it all yourself.

At the same time this segment of the population is only cared for by the Republicans because that is where much of the military recruites come from and by the Democrats only for votes they can get if they can manipulate people into believing they really care for the working lower middle class.

Want proof? Well, who do you think gets hurt the most by illegal immigration?

Could you take a few minutes and re-write the paragraph that starts "At the same time . . . " so that it is grammatically correct? I want to make sure I understand what you're implying.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

<div class='quotemain'>

Actually, the people who are greatest at risk are people who work for businesses that pay very little but intentionally work the hours for employees so they don't qualify for the company's group health insurance plan. These people may work 30 hours a week but the money they make isn't enough to pay for much more than rent and food expenses. They are worse off if they are single, or married with no kids. If they had a family they might qualify for food stamps and state Medicaid -- which covers you for a lot of medical expenses. So if youo are poor you get state coverage but if you make just over the poverty level you have to pay it all yourself.

At the same time this segment of the population is only cared for by the Republicans because that is where much of the military recruites come from and by the Democrats only for votes they can get if they can manipulate people into believing they really care for the working lower middle class.

Want proof? Well, who do you think gets hurt the most by illegal immigration?

Could you take a few minutes and re-write the paragraph that starts "At the same time . . . " so that it is grammatically correct? I want to make sure I understand what you're implying.

Thanks,

Elphaba

Who is implying anything?

[CrimsonKairos]

Check out Mitt's solution.

A dang good one, if I do say so myself.

Could be improved further, I'm sure, but as it stands...by far the best solution I've ever come across.

Oh, and did I mention that its not some blueprint scheme, but was actually enacted and met with success?

You da man, Mitt. B)

[Elphaba]

Who is implying anything?

What does the paragraph below mean? It is so poorly written I'm not sure what you're saying.

"At the same time this segment of the population is only cared for by the Republicans because that is where much of the military recruites come from and by the Democrats only for votes they can get if they can manipulate people into believing they really care for the working lower middle class."

If you're not willing to write it so it makes sense, and only that, then just leave it alone.

Thanks,

Elphaba

[Dror]

I'm for it! (Universal, single-payer healthcare, that is. :))

One of my aunts lives in Canada, and she likes their system a lot (as do most Canadians). In fact, that's why she lives there instead of in the U.S., even though it means she's far from the family, who live here.

Dror

[prisonchaplain]

What is a thread like this doing in the Gospel Discussion forum anyway?

THE DIG SELF OUT OF GRAVE RESPONSE: Healing is part of the gospel.

THE HONEST ANSWER: Oops! I goofed.

[Moksha]

As many of you know, Michael Moore has a new film out called Sicko, that discusses many of the problems associated with not having adequate health care. Unless your mind is utterly shut to this issue, it might be worthwhile to rent the video when it is available.

An important point to note on this issue, is that the United States is the only industrial country in the world that does not have a nationalized health care system for its citizens.

[sixpacktr]

I live by the Canadian border. We have Canadians coming here all of the time to get healthcare, because they don't want to wait. If they wait, they will die. Yep, let's have a system like Canada's! Let the weak and old die off, only keep the strong and healthy to keep the 'herd' going!

Michael Moore is a huge idiot dufus that is a documentary maker like I'm a brain surgeon. He is a liberal shill that will embrace any cause that will make the US look bad. Sicko is so full of lies and half truths that it isn't seriously considered anywhere except in the little world of the 'nanny state' wackos. Right up there with Uncle Al's "A Convenient Half Truth and Out and Out Lie" schlockumentary...

For crying out loud, he took off on Wolf Blitzer on CNN, a network that wouldn't argue with him if he said that Pres Bush developed the bubonic plague in the 1200s to kill off Europeans to make sure that the imperialistic US could rule the world! But the film was so full of holes that even CNN had to ask the softball questions so softly tossed my blind, crippled 90 year old grandma could hit them, and he still goes ballistic!

Learn to think and quit drinkin' the lib kool aid!

[FrankJL]

As I said on another thread, my uncle is a cardiac surgeon in Erie PA. Called that because its on Lake Erie, very close to Canada. He tells me he treats more Canadians then American's, because they don't want to risk their lives waiting months and months, sometimes even a year or more for simple heart surgeries.

Just take that tidbit for what its worth..

[Moksha]

For crying out loud, he took off on Wolf Blitzer on CNN, a network that wouldn't argue with him if he said that Pres Bush developed the bubonic plague in the 1200s to kill off Europeans to make sure that the imperialistic US could rule the world! But the film was so full of holes that even CNN had to ask the softball questions so softly tossed my blind, crippled 90 year old grandma could hit them, and he still goes ballistic!

Learn to think and quit drinkin' the lib kool aid!

Your characterization seems to be faulty. He took CNN to task for Dr. Sangay Gupta for attacking his movie and blasted Wolf Blitzer out of the water. To prove this point, I offer the clip itself.

[Gabelma]

I live by the Canadian border. We have Canadians coming here all of the time to get healthcare, because they don't want to wait. If they wait, they will die. Yep, let's have a system like Canada's! Let the weak and old die off, only keep the strong and healthy to keep the 'herd' going!

Michael Moore is a huge idiot dufus that is a documentary maker like I'm a brain surgeon. He is a liberal shill that will embrace any cause that will make the US look bad. Sicko is so full of lies and half truths that it isn't seriously considered anywhere except in the little world of the 'nanny state' wackos. Right up there with Uncle Al's "A Convenient Half Truth and Out and Out Lie" schlockumentary...

Funny wehave American relatives that have had to go to Canada for operations that don't have such good surgeons in the US.

And I thought Michael Moore was a socialist? He is definitely waay tooo left wing to be a liberal. You use the word liberal like evangelical christians use the word cult - they use it to mean the church down the road, you use it to mean anyone that doesn't toe the partyline according to Sixpacter. Historically the Whigs (large number of which helped start the Republican party) were Liberals (its what their party is now called the Liberal Democrats lol) Laissez Faire was historically a Liberal policy, interfering and introducing laws was considered conservative. My politics waver between Green/Socialist/Anarchist with a few very right wing ideas thrown in non of them are centre politics.

-Charley

[pushka]

My politics waver between Green/Socialist/Anarchist with a few very right wing ideas thrown in non of them are centre politics.

-Charley

Nice to see there's a couple of us around!

Not sure about the very right wing ideas mind you...have to let me know what they are before I start to agree with ya!

[FrankJL]

Gabelma what you are describing is classical liberalism, which would today be defined as libertarianism. The ideas of of classical liberalism are pretty much 180 degrees out of phase with the modern usage of the word.

[Elphaba]

As I said on another thread, my uncle is a cardiac surgeon in Erie PA. Called that because its on Lake Erie, very close to Canada. He tells me he treats more Canadians then American's, because they don't want to risk their lives waiting months and months, sometimes even a year or more for simple heart surgeries.

In 2001 I went to Canada to see a doctor who was able to help diagnose me.

This was after, over the course of two years, going to six doctors in the U.S. whose offices were full of incompetency, whose staff lied to my face, and whose doctors just could not take the time to help me figure out what was wrong with me due to HMO/insurance limitations.

I met with the Canadian doctor three times, and then was able to go back to Utah and tell the doctors what was wrong with me. From then on, I e-mailed the doctor in Canada for six more months, and then told my GP in UT what to do. Luckily my GP was very cooperative and worked with my Canadian doctor. Other doctors I had met with would never have allowed such a thing.

Eventually I found a doctor who was a specialist in fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome and I have worked with her exclusively ever since.

I believe that if you have a health problem that requires the best technology, you will get the best care in America. If your health problem does not, I believe you are in danger of receiving sub-standard care, even dangerously so. I've seen it.

I’ll never forget my initial trip to Canada. I felt so sick, couldn’t think straight, lost my license (luckily a woman found it in the bathroom), and ended up on an Alaskan Airlines flight that kept dropping 50,000 feet, and finally landed in this tiny airport in Victoria.

When I went through customs and told them I was seeing a doctor all five of the employees stopped and practically held their guns in my face! (Little hyperbole there.) They made me go talk to the supervisor and he kept grilling me about the doctor, and I honestly didn’t know why. I didn’t understand about their free healthcare system, and apparently a LOT of Americans try to sneak through to use it.

Finally I broke down and just sobbed and sobbed. He felt bad and called me a cab.

I will always be grateful for my Canadian doctor who spent hours with me helping me to understand why my body was rebelling against me and making me feel so ill. I will also always be so grateful to him for being willing to take the time to talk with my American doctor, often an hour or more at a time. I couldn't have been happier with my, admittedly, non-emergency, Canadian healthcare.

Elphaba