Male-Female Relationships and "Friendliness"

[Guest]

Most of the regulars here are well aware of how much I love my wife and how happily married I am.  I practically worship her.

But I tend to get the feeling that women believe I'm flirting with them when I'm being friendly or say a kind word.  What's up with that?  I certainly never intend to.  But this similar reaction seems to happen a lot.  Would it be better if I just never spoke with any females other than my family?

[Guest MormonGator]

You aren't that irresistible Carb. Not every woman you meet thinks that way.

Women aren't like that-they know you are married (or at least, they should) and they set up barriers to not actively flirt with married men. It's almost assuredly normal male-female interaction. 

 

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You aren't that irresistible Carb. Not every woman you meet thinks that way.

I didn't say they had any desires toward me.  I said they believe I have such desires toward them.

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Women aren't like that-they know you are married (or at least, they should) and they set up barriers to not actively flirt with married men. It's almost assuredly normal male-female interaction. 

That's what my wife said.  And she's usually right.  But I've seen several examples of clear evidence (to me) that they think I am.

First, I try to maintain a distance from any women (actually I'm a little distant with men at first as well).  I try to let any communications happen through my wife or a third party.  I only speak business and no friendly words.  Everything is fine.  And they are being polite and courteous.  They'll smile and joke and everything that friendly people do.

Next, I get comfortable after I've been in the ward for a while.  I know some people by name.  And I decide to say a kind word like "you did a great job on that talk today.  I really felt the spirit of your message."  From that point on, I get nothing.  It's all business.

What just changed?  This happens ONLY with the women.  And it has happened in about five wards I've been in.

I guess I'm not really complaining that I only have a "business" relationship with women.  On some level, that is as it should be.  But the fact that the change is the result of a false belief about my intentions is disturbing.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

I'm actually pretty sensitive to this. 

Things only get weird from my end if these things arise:

1. Getting in my space, or worse, undue physical contact. Don't put your arm around me, or try to rub my back or neck, or really anything more than a handshake. For heaven's sake, don't try to hug me unless we haven't seen each other in years and we were good friends to begin with. (Yes, this happens with a guy at church. All of the above.)

2. Save the innuendo for your wife. A mistaken joke is one thing, but repeated offenses put me on guard. (Yes, this happens with the same guy at church, and used to happen with another one, until my telling him to stop didn't do the trick and my husband had to tell him to knock it off.)

3. My eyes are up here. Seriously.

I don't see you as the kind of social klutz that would commit these kinds of offenses, but it might give you something to watch for.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Eowyn

[zil]

50 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Would it be better if I just never spoke with any females other than my family?

IMO, this would be a fabulous way to make the world a worse place.

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I said they believe I have such desires toward them.

When did you become a mind-reader?   Have women told you they think you're flirting or is this your assumption?  I hear men are notoriously bad at reading women's minds...

18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And I decide to say a kind word like "you did a great job on that talk today.  I really felt the spirit of your message."  From that point on, I get nothing.  It's all business.

I recommend you ask them what changed.  That seems awfully peculiar to me.  I cannot imagine any woman thinking that kind of compliment is flirting.  Nor does it seem like a reason to go from "smiles and jokes" to whatever "business" is.  Now if you're in a position to ask her to teach or speak somewhere, maybe she's thinking, "Oh crap, next I'll have to speak in Stake Conference, better stay away from him."  But otherwise, I don't get it either (but then, I'm almost certain humans are an alien species to me).

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 

Next, I get comfortable after I've been in the ward for a while.  I know some people by name.  And I decide to say a kind word like "you did a great job on that talk today.  I really felt the spirit of your message."  From that point on, I get nothing.  It's all business.

 

Such scandalous things to say to married women!  lol!

Seriously, though, from what you have described, I don't think anyone would think you are hitting on the sisters in your ward.  I think Eowyn gives a pretty good rundown of what would qualify as inappropriate, and I think you would know it if you were actually crossing the line.  Also, I imagine that, at least most of the time, the people who do this inappropriate stuff know what they are doing and simply don't care.

As for the change in behavior in the sisters, who knows?  It may have absolutely nothing to do with you, and I wouldn't read too much into it.  You might just be dealing with people who are unfriendly after the first meeting, or happened to not be in a good mood that day, or any number of things.  From what you have described, I doubt it is because they think you are flirting.

Finally, I can't resist:

"That's just perfectly normal paranoia.  Everyone in the universe gets that."  - Slartibartfast, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Edited August 1, 2016 by DoctorLemon

[NeedleinA]

This is funny because my wife and I have both noticed this before at church from the opposite sex. She is sitting right next to me now as I type. I asked her, why do you think this is? Her comment was "I think we have all been so trained to not give off the appearance of flirting, that people take it to the extreme and don't know how to simply behave like normal adults".  

People then mistakenly take "normal" conversation as perceived flirting. Bummer 

Edited August 1, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Guest]

8 hours ago, zil said:

IMO, this would be a fabulous way to make the world a worse place.

That's kinda what I thought.

When did you become a mind-reader?   Have women told you they think you're flirting or is this your assumption?  I hear men are notoriously bad at reading women's minds...

I'm pretty good at it, actually.  For instance, I'm getting the impression that you think I may be incorrect in my interpretations.

I recommend you ask them what changed. 

I'd highly recommend NOT doing that... er... to myself... How exactly would one go about doing that.  "Hey Sis N.  Why are you not friendly with me anymore?  Do you think I'm flirting with you or something?"  Uhmmm.  I don't see that happening.

That seems awfully peculiar to me.  I cannot imagine any woman thinking that kind of compliment is flirting.  Nor does it seem like a reason to go from "smiles and jokes" to whatever "business" is.  Now if you're in a position to ask her to teach or speak somewhere, maybe she's thinking, "Oh crap, next I'll have to speak in Stake Conference, better stay away from him."  But otherwise, I don't get it either (but then, I'm almost certain humans are an alien species to me).

No, I'm the YM secretary.  I don't call anyone to do anything.

Another example was even more stark.  We had just moved into the ward and the relief society presidency came over to welcome my wife into the ward.  At this time our kids were young and in bed.  I had a home business with a home office.  At that time, I hid in the office so I didn't disturb them.  I also had some work to do, so...

They asked,"Where is your husband?"

Mrs. Carb said,"Oh, he's in his office.  He just doesn't want you to think he's flirting with you."

"Oh, we won't think that."

Wife drags me over.

"Hello, Bro. Carb." (smiles and pleasantness on both sides).

I shake hands and smile,"Hello." ask names, minor pleasantries, etc.

All of them dropped their faces as soon as I opened my mouth.  It was like someone behind me gave them a cue.  What the???  NONE of the three ever spoke a word to me again.

No, this wasn't race-based either.  They'd seen me in Church earlier that week.  And they saw my face as I came to the room.  It was something about opening my mouth and saying very common things that my wife had no problems with.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

Such scandalous things to say to married women!  lol!

EXACTLY!!!

Seriously, though, from what you have described, I don't think anyone would think you are hitting on the sisters in your ward.  I think Eowyn gives a pretty good rundown of what would qualify as inappropriate, and I think you would know it if you were actually crossing the line.  Also, I imagine that, at least most of the time, the people who do this inappropriate stuff know what they are doing and simply don't care.

As for the change in behavior in the sisters, who knows?  It may have absolutely nothing to do with you, and I wouldn't read too much into it.  You might just be dealing with people who are unfriendly after the first meeting, or happened to not be in a good mood that day, or any number of things.  From what you have described, I doubt it is because they think you are flirting.

Maybe it's not flirting.  But SOMETHING changed.  And the pattern is clear.  It happens in EVERY ward with the great majority of the sisters my wife is friends with all the time -- and a few others.

Finally, I can't resist:

"That's just perfectly normal paranoia.  Everyone in the universe gets that."  - Slartibartfast, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

LOL.

 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

It was something about opening my mouth and saying very common things that my wife had no problems with.

This implies that what you consider "very common things" is not what other people consider "very common things".  Having read your words here, that seems hard to understand, but that's what it implies.  Have you considered making audio recordings of these conversations so that you can transcribe them later for the rest of us to analyze? (I'm only half joking; you've really got me curious as to the big turn off here.)  Are you sure you don't have something stuck in you teeth?  (OK, that was "whole" joking.)

And that last description makes me think quite the opposite of what you think - they're not avoiding your flirting, they're avoiding something they perceive as offensive or otherwise uncomfortable. (I don't know many females who consider possible verbal flirting uncomfortable - even married ones - they would assume it was a joke or tease, and not meant as real flirting - unless the words themselves were totally inappropriate and no sane person would see them as anything other than a come-on.)

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

 

10 hours ago, zil said:

I recommend you ask them what changed.

I'd highly recommend NOT doing that... er... to myself... How exactly would one go about doing that.  "Hey Sis N.  Why are you not friendly with me anymore?  Do you think I'm flirting with you or something?"  Uhmmm.  I don't see that happening.

IMO, this is part of the problem with the world and relates to why I said ceasing to talk to any female not in your family would be a good way to make the world a worse place.  When humans stop talking to each other when understanding can best be accomplished by talking to each other, the world is a worse place.
(Remember what I said about humans being an alien species to me - feel free to check with your wife about this; maybe you all really are aliens.)  You don't have to be so blunt in your questions.  Be in a private public space (that is, a place where you're seen by lots of people and thus not alone, but where your conversation will be somewhat private - after Sacrament is good enough, with ~4 feet between you) and if her husband is there, that works even better, I think.  Then it might go something like:  "Sister N, remember that time I complimented you on the talk you gave in Sacrament?  Back in [month year]?  About [some subject]?"  All that gives her time to recall the memory and relax a little.  "It seemed to me, and maybe it's just me, that after this our conversations became more formal than they were prior to this..."  (It's important to get the "than prior to this" bit in.)  "...and I worry that I may have inadvertently offended you."  After that, be silent for a painfully long time, as needed, until she (or her husband) says something*.  Humans have this weird desire to fill silence with speech when the other nearby humans don't do so quickly.  Suppress this tendency and give her time to compose her reply.

*If you did say something to offend her, wouldn't she have told her husband?

Anywho, I think the human tendency to:

a) Believe there's a problem, and wish their weren't

b) Yet avoid addressing the perceived problem with the other party

...is something that makes Satan laugh, and the world a worse place.

It may help to imagine what the worst response, so you can plan what you would do:

    She'll break down in tears and make a display of hysteria.  Offer a box of tissues.  Apologize for upsetting her.  Let someone else provide the comfort.

She'll rip your head off and stomp on it like you were in one of those violent video games.  Oh well, you'll get over it. One of you will self-implode.  Oh well, there's always the next life. She'll lie and tell you she doesn't know what you mean.  At least you tried. She'll tell the truth and tell you she's clueless.  Now you know you don't get women.  Ask your wife if she can explain.  (You could try just looking royally confused - she might feel compelled to explain further.) She'll tell the truth and you'll learn what it is about your front teeth that other women find so offensive.  Hooray! Later, her husband will come tell you what's up.  Hooray, indirect understanding.

I don't mean to dismiss anyone's feelings by above half-jokes, but really, how bad can it be to have a well-meant, but somewhat difficult conversation which might lead to better understanding all around?  And what other way is there?  I guess you could relate the events to her husband and ask him to:

a) Tell his wife that if you offended her, you didn't mean to

b) See if he can figure out what you did wrong and let you know so you can stop

Hmm.  Does this happen with women in a professional setting?  Neighbors?  Or is it only women at church?  (Seriously, I'm really curious now.  If my ship were working, I'd track you down for observation, but I accidentally crashed it into a crater in Arizona, and it'll be eons before the others arrive.)

Edited August 1, 2016 by zil
cursed square brackets

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

This implies that what you consider "very common things" is not what other people consider "very common things".  

 

Hmm.  Does this happen with women in a professional setting?  Neighbors?  Or is it only women at church?  (Seriously, I'm really curious now.  If my ship were working, I'd track you down for observation, but I accidentally crashed it into a crater in Arizona, and it'll be eons before the others arrive.)

Well, they're common enough that none of the men are "offended" or think anything of it.

Yes, at work, neighbors, church, even a sister missionary on my mission specifically told me to back off because some of my actions were "flirtatious".

While it bothers me that some might have an wrong impression of me, I guess the bigger issue is -- what can I change about my behavior or words that will not invoke this reaction?  The fact that it keeps happening to me indicates that I'm the source of the problem. 

The problem is that I guess I can't really relate precise conversations.  And of course, no one will get voice inflection, guestures, and facial signals.  So, maybe this thread is pointless.

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, they're common enough that none of the men are "offended" or think anything of it.

Yes, at work, neighbors, church, even a sister missionary on my mission specifically told me to back off because some of my actions were "flirtatious".

While it bothers me that some might have an wrong impression of me, I guess the bigger issue is -- what can I change about my behavior or words that will not invoke this reaction?  The fact that it keeps happening to me indicates that I'm the source of the problem. 

The problem is that I guess I can't really relate precise conversations.  And of course, no one will get voice inflection, guestures, and facial signals.  So, maybe this thread is pointless.

I think the thread is only pointless if you're not willing to talk with one or more of these sisters to learn what you need to change.

Here's something that's usually true: when presented with a person who has a problem, women usually want to help (I hear women like to fix broken men - they make movies about it).  You could go to one of these women (as described above) and instead of addressing what happened with her specifically, mention that it seems to happen all the time and you'd really like to stop doing whatever is causing the problem.

Have you told your wife about all this?  Seems like she could be the one to do the detective work if the pool of witnesses is so large as you make it seem.  Surely these women would tell your wife if she asked the question right.

Sorry, I've got no clue how to solve this problem without going to the people whose behavior changed.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

Have you told your wife about all this?

Yes, she says it's all in my head.  She doesn't notice any difference.  But the truth is that I'm actually very good at reading people.

[zil]

Well, I would ask her to give you the benefit of the doubt and help your investigations anyway.  Tell her it's OK to start out with "My husband seems to think..."

Sorry, Carb.  Personally, I think you're a great person to have conversations with.  If we ever meet in person, I promise to tell you if I think you're doing something weird.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, zil said:

Well, I would ask her to give you the benefit of the doubt and help your investigations anyway.  Tell her it's OK to start out with "My husband seems to think..."

Sorry, Carb.  Personally, I think you're a great person to have conversations with.  If we ever meet in person, I promise to tell you if I think you're doing something weird.

You too, Zil.  

No, I wasn't flirting. 

[omegaseamaster75]

12 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

This is funny because my wife and I have both noticed this before at church from the opposite sex. She is sitting right next to me now as I type. I asked her, why do you think this is. Her comment was "I think we have all been so trained to not give of the appearance of flirting, that people take it to the extreme and don't know how to simply behave like normal adults".  

People then mistakenly take "normal" conversation as perceived flirting. Bummer 

I agree with NeedleinA, I think that it is social conditioning. I have never had an issue at work with members of the opposite sex being friendly, joking etc. Nothing inappropriate just normal banter. In the church the "appearance" of evil  may be taken a little to far. I get that also it is easy to misinterpret a smile, of small joke etc, but it can be taken to far. 

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I agree with NeedleinA, I think that it is social conditioning. I have never had an issue at work with members of the opposite sex being friendly, joking etc. Nothing inappropriate just normal banter. In the church the "appearance" of evil  may be taken a little to far. I get that also it is easy to misinterpret a smile, of small joke etc, but it can be taken to far. 

Amen. You guys are both dead on. It's probably best to take a chill pill (such a 90's statement) and move on. 

[Guest]

So, it's not my fault?  SCOOOORE!!!

Edited August 1, 2016 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, it's not my fault?  SCOOOORE!!!

It really isn't Carb. One of the drawbacks of keeping genders apart and not interacting is that you don't know how to communicate with the opposite sex unless it's flirting, and you keep the genders suspicious of each other because both sides think there are different motives going on.  That's sad. Two of my best friends are women and I don't know what I'd do without them in my life. 

If a woman jumps up and down and screams because you say "Hello Jane, how are you? I enjoyed your speech in church yesterday." That's on her, not you. And if you can't find a way to talk with women without making them uncomfortable (like what @Eowyn said. Don't be that guy she describes) that's on you. 

The good news is that you can find the balance. 85% of people in life do. 

Edited August 1, 2016 by MormonGator

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It really isn't Carb. One of the drawbacks of keeping genders apart and not interacting is that you don't know how to communicate with the opposite sex unless it's flirting, and you keep the genders suspicious of each other because both sides think there are different motives going on. 

Well, you only say that because I've never tried my manly charms on you.

[Guest MormonGator]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, you only say that because I've never tried my manly charms on you.

Sorry pal, I don't swing that way. Nothing personal. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Sorry pal, I don't swing that way. Nothing personal. 

But... I love you, man...  Even if you don't give me a Bud Light.

[anatess2]

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Most of the regulars here are well aware of how much I love my wife and how happily married I am.  I practically worship her.

But I tend to get the feeling that women believe I'm flirting with them when I'm being friendly or say a kind word.  What's up with that?  I certainly never intend to.  But this similar reaction seems to happen a lot.  Would it be better if I just never spoke with any females other than my family?

If my husband thinks this, this is what I would tell him:

1.)  What's up with that?

     Who cares?  I don't! (of course, I'm assuming that what you're doing is normal guy stuff).  That's really all that matters - if the wife is okay with it and the sisters are not telling you or your wife to knock it off... you be you and allow them the freedom to control their own reactions.

2.)  Would it be better if I just never spoke with any females other than my family?

    And be called out for incestuous desires? 

    Ok, just kidding.  Treat all the females that you meet like the daughter of God that they are.  That's really all you can do.

Edited August 1, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

  Ok, just kidding.  Treat all the females that you meet like the daughter of God that they are.  That's really all you can do.

Or treat women as individuals. There. 

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Or treat women as individuals. There. 

Individual daughters of God.  Ok.