Some Ponderings

[Guest]

2 hours ago, james12 said:

There is a huge difference. We understand that there are certain experiences that can only be learned here in mortality. We understand that it is thanks to Adam's fall and Christ's atonement that we have the opportunity to repent here and now. We understand the suffering and pain we must endure after this life is over. 

Please do not misunderstand, this is the time for men to prepare to meet God. Here on earth we have an opportunity we will find nowhere else. Because we are cut off from God's presence it is only in this life that we face certain challenges. There is no other way. 

The first paragraph is no different than what many other faiths believe.

The second is in direct contradiction with the idea of upward mobility between kingdoms.  If we don't actually learn "certain things", then can we learn them after mortality?  If so, we don't have to learn them here.  If not, then there isn't really upward mobility.

[james12]

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How is it not obvious that our experience here is for our sakes, not to double-check whether God's omniscience is really omni?  That God knows what we will do does not obviate our need to experience it.  Given this fact, how is it not obvious that those who die before they've had the "full experience" fall into one of at least two categories:

1) Those who will gain their experience in the Millennium

How will a person who has died gain what can only be experienced during mortality in the Millennium? (I realize there is a quote from Joseph about parents raising their children during the millennium. But as I understand it these are resurrected children not mortal children.)

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2) Those who mastered the physical without ever experiencing it (no, I don't think it's blasphemous to suggest that some spirits in addition to Jesus Christ, progressed so far in the spirit that they had sufficient mastery to overcome physical trial without ever experiencing it, thus needing nothing more than a mortal body)

I wouldn't say blasphemous but I would say wrong. Gospel Principles puts it in basic and simple terms.

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Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. (Ch. 2 Our Heavenly Family)

If we could not progress beyond a certain point in our pre-mortal life how is it possible that some progressed further and only needed to be alive for a moment before dying? Why shouldn't we just spend some more time learning what the others learned in our pre-earth existence instead of coming here and having to suffer it out? Sure it might take us a long long time but we had the time! Further, if what you say is true, what did they learn in those few seconds that all of the rest of us needed to struggle to learn over a life time and more? 

If there was some easy way to avoid all but two seconds of this life that is what I would take. And if I had to experience this life to learn it than why didn't others? It's no good saying that they progressed further, because they couldn't! That is why we are all here. Sure people have different talents and abilities but there are some lessons that can only be learned here. I have a very hard time believing that in two seconds someone learned that lesson or those lessons.

[james12]

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The first paragraph is no different than what many other faiths believe.

The second is in direct contradiction with the idea of upward mobility between kingdoms.  If we don't actually learn "certain things", then can we learn them after mortality?  If so, we don't have to learn them here.  If not, then there isn't really upward mobility.

No other faith believes Adam purposely fell that man might experience this life. Nor do they understand that this mortality allows us to move up in progression after this life is over.

My second paragraph does not contradict the idea of progression to a different kingdom after our life here is over. I'll leave it for you to consider. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, james12 said:

No other faith believes Adam purposely fell that man might experience this life. Nor do they understand that this mortality allows us to move up in progression after this life is over.

My second paragraph does not contradict the idea of progression to a different kingdom after our life here is over. I'll leave it for you to consider. 

The fact that Adam fell on purpose is meaningless without understanding that this is our second estate and that this second estate is what determines our eternal destiny.  And, yes, they are very aware that the choices we make in this life allow us to "get to a better place".  If that's not just another way of defining progression, please 'splain it to me.

"Learning" what?  The only way to learn what?  This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God.  But if we're not prepared, we can still prepare in the next life?  How is that not a contradiction?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Guest

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, james12 said:

As LDS we claim that God's foreknowledge is sufficient that the baby is saved in the kingdom of God while on the other hand we tell the old man that he needed to face trials to gain experience that could be gained in no other way. If, as you said earlier, we were on the same standing as our brother's and sister's at some point before this life. How is it that one individual need not experience this earth life, while the other must do so? Do you see the dual standard? Either all must experience this life, all need not do so because of God's foreknowledge, or there is something we do not understand. 

There isn't a dual standard. In this case I will refer you back to @zil's response, and then add this quote from Joseph Smith:

At the funeral of two-year-old Marian Lyon, the Prophet said: “We have again the warning voice sounded in our midst, which shows the uncertainty of human life; and in my leisure moments I have meditated upon the subject, and asked the question, why it is that infants, innocent children, are taken away from us, especially those that seem to be the most intelligent and interesting. The strongest reasons that present themselves to my mind are these: This world is a very wicked world; and it … grows more wicked and corrupt. … The Lord takes many away, even in infancy, that they may escape the envy of man, and the sorrows and evils of this present world; they were too pure, too lovely, to live on earth; therefore, if rightly considered, instead of mourning we have reason to rejoice as they are delivered from evil, and we shall soon have them again. …

“… The only difference between the old and young dying is, one lives longer in heaven and eternal light and glory than the other, and is freed a little sooner from this miserable, wicked world. Notwithstanding all this glory, we for a moment lose sight of it, and mourn the loss, but we do not mourn as those without hope.”

3 hours ago, james12 said:

You need to finish the sentence in the same quote you provided. I'll give you it here in full with the part you are missing highlighted, "A man may partake of endless torment, and when he has paid the penalty for his transgression, he is released, but the punishment remains and awaits the next culprit, and so on forever”. Note he does not say, "his punishment remains" but instead says, "the punishment remains". In other words the punishment remains for the next culprit, but the one who repents is released from it. 

This gets into questions about the type of God's justice. In our justice system a judge or jury defines how long a person must go to prison in order to pay for their crime. Let's suppose it is ten years. If that person exhibits good behavior often they will be released before the ten years have been served. Why would a parole board consider reducing the sentence? Because the convict has learned their lesson. In other words the person has changed. The purpose for the punishment has ended. I believe this is how God works. He does not require a person to suffer one moment longer than they need to. If the person changes and pleads pardon the Lord forgives. The punishment has ended!

I read the whole sentence, and in light of Joseph Fielding Smith's other quote the interpretation I have provided is more sound. Whether the word is "the" or "his" the meaning remains the same. "the punishment remains" for the transgressor and the punishment remains for the next culprit who does not abide by the laws and commandments necessary to be exalted, "so on forever." Once we are assigned to a state of glory, there is no progression from one kingdom to the next.

[omegaseamaster75]

On 12/21/2016 at 7:08 AM, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison? 

Yes I think that these people will get a second chance in spirit

 

On 12/21/2016 at 7:08 AM, An Investigator said:

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison?  

I think that devout people of other faiths will have a path to the Celestial Kingdom if they accept the Gospel in the spirit world.

 

On 12/21/2016 at 7:08 AM, An Investigator said:

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

I am unaware of progression once we are placed in our degree of glory, I have heard that there may be progression in the celestial Kingdom but am to lazy to look for referances.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The first paragraph is no different than what many other faiths believe.

Catholic "purgatory" is what comes to my mind.

[james12]

zil, Anddenex, and Carbornedum,

Thanks for the discussion. I assure you that I understand this is our second estate, that I have considered well what the Lord means when he says "endless punishment", and that I have heard and taken into account the quotes from Joseph on children who die young. Further, I assure you that I do not believe as Catholics or other religions do about purgatory. Instead I believe I side with Brigham Young, James E. Talmage and others on this matter. There is more to understand about salvation then the basics we have been taught. I have here tried to highlight a few issues which should be considered for further understanding. 

[Anddenex]

57 minutes ago, james12 said:

zil, Anddenex, and Carbornedum,

Thanks for the discussion. I assure you that I understand this is our second estate, that I have considered well what the Lord means when he says "endless punishment", and that I have heard and taken into account the quotes from Joseph on children who die young. Further, I assure you that I do not believe as Catholics or other religions do about purgatory. Instead I believe I side with Brigham Young, James E. Talmage and others on this matter. There is more to understand about salvation then the basics we have been taught. I have here tried to highlight a few issues which should be considered for further understanding. 

Thank you also for the discussion; however, what you have highlighted and provided interpretations seems all to close to this scripture, "And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God." (2 Nephi 28:8)

The problem with the last sentence is that it makes an assumption that other people haven't studied. I know I am fine with you believing as you do, and that you side with Brigham Young and James E. Talmage. On the other hand, I would side with Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith and the scriptures they have shared giving evidence to a lack of progression between kingdoms of glory. Those are their for further understanding also, which I have tried to highlight (see what I did there).

As with regards to "purgatory" and not accepting the notion, then you will have to explain further how your belief and purgatory are different because they don't seem to be any different in theology and interpretation. Purgatory (in a nutshell), "is an intermediate state after physical death in which some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven". Only those who die in the state of grace but have not yet fulfilled the temporal punishment due to their sin can be in Purgatory, and therefore no one in Purgatory will remain forever in that state nor go to hell." The main doctrinal points of purgatory is what you have shared (1. Sinner not in heaven 2. Sinner is given a period (no time specified) where sinner can repent after physical death 3. Once purified, sinner has repented, he/she is accepted into heaven (celestial glory). There isn't much difference between what you have shared regarding progression from kingdom to kingdom (if people repent) and purgatory (purification = repentance) which make it to heaven.

[Blackmarch]

On December 21, 2016 at 8:27 AM, Carborendum said:

https://askgramps.org/eternal-progression/

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/Degrees of Glory.htm

No, there is no upward mobiity between kingdoms.

As far as how much of a chance is enough of a chance?  Only the Lord knows.  And I'm glad that it is He and not I who will be making such a judgment.

Yes, other faiths also have a purpose.  That question came up recently in a discussion about the Millennium.  Other faiths will survive the Lord's coming, not just the Saints.  I'd personally believe that some very good atheists will survive.  But what are they going to be doing during the Millennium?  (idonno).

Advancing civilization.

[wenglund]

On 12/27/2016 at 9:40 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Its rather obvious that this doctrine is anything but clear and agreed upon amongst the saints.

To me, this is a beautiful thing, and by divine design. It provides some resistance to debilitating dogma and creedalism condemned by God through Joseph Smith, if not an impetus to humbly continue learning and exploring further..

And, perhaps it is good to keep the Saints guessing so they either don't postpone the day of their repentance or rest on their laurels. , 

It is plausible, too, that we are not developed enough to accurately grasp the whole of the afterlife, and so like with the blind men and the elephant, we are shown bits and pieces that may seem contradictory, inconsistent, and different, in our blind and limited state, but when all is revealed beyond the grave, it will fit very nicely together.

It may also rightly provide incentive to focus on living the gospel in this life and leave the afterlife to take care of itself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blackmarch]

On December 21, 2016 at 8:08 AM, An Investigator said:

Just wanting to hear some opinions on some things I have been pondering of late.   

What do people think constitutes a rejection of the Gospel?  I personally believe that in order to reject something one would have to have a very good grasp of it. So rejecting the Missionaries or even possibly baptism would not constitute a rejection of the Gospel? That these people will still get a second chance in Spirit prison?

 

I believe that I have been called into the Church for a purpose,  what about people of other faiths,  perhaps they are called into their faiths to set them on the right path as they are not completely ready for the whole truth?  Do you think that most devout people of other faiths will go to the celestial Kingdom and accept the Gospel in Spirit prison? 

There are some Lds theologians who think that the three degrees of Glory are three steps and even when we are placed in a realm we can still progress till eventually everyone receives exaltation.   What is everyones opinion on that? 

1- i think thats a pretty good view of it.

2. I know a man who had definitive answers from god to join other faiths before god brought him to the LDS faith. What he learned in those faiths gave him the experience that he needed to remain strong in the lds faith when he faced severe trials after joining the LDS faith.

3. I cant confirm that. Until i get better knowledge of it, that is what i will hope for, but not expect.