What God Thinks About Women And The Priesthood

[Snow]

One thing is indisputably true.

If God wanted women to have the priesthood enough to do something about it, then women would have the priesthood.

God's current position is eminently clear.

[Annabelli]

Well Snow, I have researched women's responses to organizing their work places, communities, and female family relationships.

One woman in a sweat shop said "we're a bunch of back stabbing b******."

Until women accept organization in their daily lives with other women, they have no discipline or respect to be in the Priesthood.

God is apparently waiting for women to humble themselves and work together.

Do women have the attributes necessary to do so?

God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time.

I know that this is not going to be a popular response but it is a truthful one.

[Snow]

One woman in a sweat shop said "we're a bunch of back stabbing b******."

At work I have about 180 women and 10 men that report up to me. My direct reports - managers and directors, all women consistently say the same thing. I don't know, from personal experience, how much that differs from how men behave that is, if I had that many men, mayber such behavior would likewise be a problem but I don't know.

[Annabelli]

I think the "cat fight" going on between Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama is ridiculous. We have not seen this bad behavior before.

We have seen many examples of the relationships that our First Ladies in Washington DC have had with other wives of world leaders. And that is to include Nancy Reagan and Raisa Gorbachev.

[shanstress70]

Well Snow, I have researched women's responses to organizing their work places, communities, and female family relationships.

One woman in a sweat shop said "we're a bunch of back stabbing b******."

Until women accept organization in their daily lives with other women, they have no discipline or respect to be in the Priesthood.

God is apparently waiting for women to humble themselves and work together.

Do women have the attributes necessary to do so?

God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time.

I know that this is not going to be a popular response but it is a truthful one.

Gosh, I guess I work with top-notch women bc we never have any of that mess going on. We all work great together. And I can honestly say as the sole woman in management at my company that I'm respected just as much as the others - by women AND men.

Sheesh, glad I'm not employed where you guys live!

Disclaimer: I love my husband tremendously!

However, if he were bishop, he would miss appts and not feel like going to all his meetings. I would have to remind him of everything. He would do a great job of getting things taken care of when he was there, and would win the friendship of many. I, however, would do a better job of being there reliably and would really help people with my caregiving mentality. And no, Annabelli, I wouldn't stab even one woman in the back! Just my crazy opinion that women and men both have attributes that would lead to them being successful in the position of bishop.

But I'm just joining in the conversation for the sake of killing time this morning, as it doesn't affect me. Thought I'd beat you to the punch, Snow.

[sixpacktr]

One particular argument given by those outside the church and those that think that the church is 'out of the way' is the old lie 'well, it must be man that isn't reacting to what God wants', or 'those doddering old fools in SLC just don't get it, and are trying to keep us under Victorian ways'. etc.

Point is, we have a Prophet, yes, a PROPHET here upon the earth. Thru his PROPHET SW Kimball, the PH was given to the blacks. If the PH is ever to be given to women it will be revealed to the PROPHET to do so.

This crap that men (both the sex and humankind as a whole) are screwing it up, and that the PROPHET doesn't want to follow what God really wants is ridiculous. In fact, if you are a church member, it is close to apostasy.

If you are a member, and can't understand that, then hand over your temple recommend. I think it is the 3rd question in the TR interview. If you aren't a member, why the heck does it bother you? It has nothing to do with you...

[Dr T]

Hi Annabelli,

Until women accept organization in their daily lives with other women, they have no discipline or respect to be in the Priesthood.

God is apparently waiting for women to humble themselves and work together.

Do women have the attributes necessary to do so?

God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time.

I know that this is not going to be a popular response but it is a truthful one.

Interesting ideas. When I read them, I wondered "On what basis is she making these assertions?" Are those based on some kind of support or just possibilities you've thought of? Thank you

[shanstress70]

One particular argument given by those outside the church and those that think that the church is 'out of the way' is the old lie 'well, it must be man that isn't reacting to what God wants', or 'those doddering old fools in SLC just don't get it, and are trying to keep us under Victorian ways'. etc.

Point is, we have a Prophet, yes, a PROPHET here upon the earth. Thru his PROPHET SW Kimball, the PH was given to the blacks. If the PH is ever to be given to women it will be revealed to the PROPHET to do so.

This crap that men (both the sex and humankind as a whole) are screwing it up, and that the PROPHET doesn't want to follow what God really wants is ridiculous. In fact, if you are a church member, it is close to apostasy.

If you are a member, and can't understand that, then hand over your temple recommend. I think it is the 3rd question in the TR interview. If you aren't a member, why the heck does it bother you? It has nothing to do with you...

Yep, you're right, which is why I shouldn't even be discussing this. (Thought of that after I replied.) It's all about whether you believe that the LDS prophet is really of God. If not, it's a non-issue. I'll step aside now. :)

[StrawberryFields]

Until women accept organization in their daily lives with other women, they have no discipline or respect to be in the Priesthood.

God is apparently waiting for women to humble themselves and work together.

Just so there is no mistake where I am coming from with this I HAVE NO PROBLEM with not holding the priesthood at this time. :)

The portion of the quote I quoted above seem less than accurate in the church. Woman do make things happen in the church. Have you ever worked in the Young Womans Program? Women are the ones who work together and get the job done. Don't forget that behind every good man in the church stands a great woman.

[sixpacktr]

Don't forget that behind every good man in the church stands a great woman.

Sorry, SF, but I disagree with the semantics on this...

Behind every GREAT man in the church stands a GREAT woman. :)

Why? Because they are one, they trust each other, and they build each other up. And it works both ways...

I get a little tired of hearing that saying, because it implies that men are just dolts without some woman there to build them up. Give us a little credit!

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

Don't forget that behind every good man in the church stands a great woman.

Sorry, SF, but I disagree with the semantics on this...

Behind every GREAT man in the church stands a GREAT woman. :)

Why? Because they are one, they trust each other, and they build each other up. And it works both ways...

I get a little tired of hearing that saying, because it implies that men are just dolts without some woman there to build them up. Give us a little credit!

Okay Sixpack, I can accept that too.

[Jason]

If you aren't a member, why the heck does it bother you? It has nothing to do with you...

That's about as logical as saying the atrocities in Darfur have nothing to do with me, because I'm not Sudanese.

Key word: Symbiosis.

[Doctor Steuss]

One thing is indisputably true.

If God wanted women to have the priesthood enough to do something about it, then women would have the priesthood.

God's current position is eminently clear.

I'm not sure it's "eminently clear." It didn't seem to be prior to BRM saying to "forget everything they had said on the subject" and that they were speaking with a "limited light" when the ban was lifted on those born with higher levels of melanin.

Why was it that while our black brothers were denied the priesthood, our black sisters couldn't enter the temple either? If only men hold the priesthood, then why would women also be denied the priesthood ordinances and not be able to wear the holy vestments of the priesthood also? Furthermore, why do women wear the holy vestments of the priesthood if they do not hold the priesthood?

Why do I need to receive the Aaronic priesthood to so much as enter a temple for Baptisms for the Dead, but women don’t? And why does a man need a woman in order to enter into “this order of the priesthood” (D&C 131:2) in order to dwell with G-d in the highest kingdom?

You are right that G-d would do something about “it” if He truly wanted to. But He seems to often wait for us to figure things out on our own. And I'm not even really sure what "it" is. Joseph Smith once said that the Relief Society "should move according to the ancienty Priesthood," and that he was "going to make the society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day as in Paul's day." (WOJS. pg 110). So, is "it" recognizing that women might have a form of "priesthood" already? They can already create life like gods can. Or is "it" giving them an office in the priesthood? Is there even something for Him to do, or is it more-so something for Him to help us see and/or realize?

Then again, maybe I just don't have the right spirit to truly understand His will and the nature of His holy priesthood (which, in all seriousness, might be the most valid option).

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

If you aren't a member, why the heck does it bother you? It has nothing to do with you...

That's about as logical as saying the atrocities in Darfur have nothing to do with me, because I'm not Sudanese.

Key word: Symbiosis.

Strawman alert!

Two completely different things. That is like saying that my throwing away those peas is causing people in Africa to die.

Whether or not women hold the PH has nothing to do with you. You aren't a member. You rejected the church for another. If you think that women should hold the PH, go for it in your church...

Why does it bother you if it has nothing to do with you?

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

If you aren't a member, why the heck does it bother you? It has nothing to do with you...

That's about as logical as saying the atrocities in Darfur have nothing to do with me, because I'm not Sudanese.

Key word: Symbiosis.

Strawman alert!

Two completely different things. That is like saying that my throwing away those peas is causing people in Africa to die.

Whether or not women hold the PH has nothing to do with you. You aren't a member. You rejected the church for another. If you think that women should hold the PH, go for it in your church...

Why does it bother you if it has nothing to do with you?

First, it's not a strawman, and I don't think you know what that even means. (Go hit wikipedia for a quick fix.)

Second, it is not "completely different". It's an analogy, which is not intended to be exactly the same, but to draw a parallel for understanding.

Finally, women are ordained to the Holy Priesthood in my Church. And it does bother me because anything that affects my neighbor, affects me.

[a-train]

Every LDS Sunday School kid can quickly tell you what the Priesthood is: 'It is the power and authority to act in the name of Jesus Christ'.

We know well that the power of the priesthood is revelation, the knowledge of God, even the Holy Ghost. 'And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.' (D&C 84:19)

We are also often taught: 'That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.' (D&C 121:36) and that: 'No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;' etc. (D&C 121:41)

It is only after repenting and aligning himself with the will of God that a man can obtain the blessings of the Priesthood wherein: 'The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.' (D&C 121:46)

We know further that certain portions of the Priesthood come without an oath: 'The 3rd is what is called the Levitical Priesthood, consisting of priests to administer in outward ordinances, made without an oath; but the Priesthood of Melchizedek is by an oath and covenant.' (TPJS pp.323) We know also that certain portions of the Priesthood come by birthright. I would ask: 'Can anyone receive such a birthright without a mother?'

Now don't get confused. There is only ONE Priesthood as our Sunday School kids tell us. Answering 'Was the Priesthood of Melchizedek taken away when Moses died?' Joseph Smith said: 'All Priesthood is Melchizedek, but there are different portions or degrees of it. That portion which brought Moses to speak with God face to face was taken away; but that which brought the ministry of angels remained. All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself.' (TPJS pp.180-181)

So my question is this: Because there is really only ONE Priesthood which comes to us only in submission to God's will in degrees which Priesthood is the power to act in the name of Jesus Christ possessing the blessings of revelation of the Holy Ghost, doesn't every man woman and child on this earth therefore have a certain portion of it?

It is my opinion that they do and the work of God and our labor in His vineyard is to offer them more. Women are just as much a part of the Priesthood as men, however they need not take upon them the oath and covenant of the offices of Elder, High Priest, Apostle, and so forth, but are to take upon them the covenants given them of the LORD and they with us will obtain all the same blessings of the Priesthood that we enjoy together. Further, we cannot enjoy these blessings without our women. We are vividly reminded that the Highest Order of the Priesthood is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

Striking at the deepest core my puny mind is capable of getting to, I wonder what roles exalted males and females play in complementing one another that are analogous to the manner in which we do here in mortality. I imagine the roles of each are unfathomably more potent and wonderful than here as 'eye hath not seen, nor ear heard'.

-a-train

[sixpacktr]

[First, it's not a strawman, and I don't think you know what that even means. (Go hit wikipedia for a quick fix.)

Second, it is not "completely different". It's an analogy, which is not intended to be exactly the same, but to draw a parallel for understanding.

Finally, women are ordained to the Holy Priesthood in my Church. And it does bother me because anything that affects my neighbor, affects me.

Jason,

Thank you for setting me straight on my wording. I was between 'strawman' and 'red herring', and so I looked it up on Ask.com, and strawman made the most sense. Point is, though, that even if I used it wrong, the idea was that you are putting up a false argument to my original idea.

If the plight of those in Darfur hurts you so much (anything that affects my neighbor, affects me) can I assume you are going there to fix the problems in the Sudanese gov't? And from there, to NO to fix the problems still evident from Katrina? And from there to Croatia, Serbia, etc., to fix the unbelievable problems there?

Again, your argument is false. It is easy to pick at the church for you because somehow you were offended, and so naturally women not holding the PH is earth shattering and MUST BE FIXED. But your picking and choosing which thing offends you is a little hypocritcal, don't you think? Again, in your own words, "anything that affects my neighbor, affects me."

Have a good time fixing the world's problems...

[Jason]

Jason,

Thank you for setting me straight on my wording. I was between 'strawman' and 'red herring', and so I looked it up on Ask.com, and strawman made the most sense. Point is, though, that even if I used it wrong, the idea was that you are putting up a false argument to my original idea.

You did use it wrong. And there is no false argument to your original idea. Christ said to love our neighbor as our selves. Apparently you don't think that applies to you. Yet it does apply to me, and therefore whatever I can to with my limited time and resources, I will do.

I actually support a ministry that distributes condoms and teaches sex education in Africa to help stem the raging tide of Hiv/Aids.

What do you do?

It is easy to pick at the church for you because somehow you were offended, and so naturally women not holding the PH is earth shattering and MUST BE FIXED. But your picking and choosing which thing offends you is a little hypocritcal, don't you think? Again, in your own words, "anything that affects my neighbor, affects me."

Please show me where I have ever said that I was offended by anything or anyone in the Church.

Then when you fail in that endeavor, please explain how I am "picking and choosing" which things offend me.

When you cannot do that, I'll expect your apology.

[sixpacktr]

One: I don't let others know what I do to make the world better. Smacks too much of the 'pharisee on the corner' for my comfort.

Two: you didn't answer my question. When will you be helping out the entire world? It all affects you, as per your post...

However, I will say that if I have offended you, I apologize. Never my intent, to offend, but I do tire so much of the nit picking and clever little snide remarks you and others make to make it seem we who believe are not quite as bright as you are because you no longer are being 'duped'.

[Jason]

One: I don't let others know what I do to make the world better. Smacks too much of the 'pharisee on the corner' for my comfort.

You should tell that to Church headquarters.

Two: you didn't answer my question. When will you be helping out the entire world? It all affects you, as per your post...

I pray for peace in the world during Lauds and Prime. At the moment, that's the best I can do for the rest of the world.

However, I will say that if I have offended you, I apologize. Never my intent, to offend, but I do tire so much of the nit picking and clever little snide remarks you and others make to make it seem we who believe are not quite as bright as you are because you no longer are being 'duped'.

I'm not saying anything about Mormonism. It's a decent religion, and works well for quite a few people. I'd just like to see it improve a bit, that's all.

[shanstress70]

sixpacktr, I enjoy your posts and don't mean to be offensive to you. However, even if a certain issue doesn't affect me (or if I don't have a solution), that doesn't mean I can't discuss it. Polar bears don't affect me, but I just had a discussion about them in another thread.

And I know that most people believe it's true, but everyone who leaves the LDS church doesn't do so bc they were offended.

[Gaia]

One thing is indisputably true.

If God wanted women to have the priesthood enough to do something about it, then women would have the priesthood.

God's current position is eminently clear.

GAIA:

Hmm -- Sorta like, "If God wanted us all to be kind and compassionate to each other, and spiritually minded,

we would all be kind and compassionate to each other, and spiritually minded" ????

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

If you aren't a member, why the heck does it bother you? It has nothing to do with you...

That's about as logical as saying the atrocities in Darfur have nothing to do with me, because I'm not Sudanese.

Key word: Symbiosis.

Only if you think not holding the priesthood is akin to genocide. It's not. Bad analogy Jason.

[Gaia]

Well Snow, I have researched women's responses to organizing their work places, communities, and female family relationships.

One woman in a sweat shop said "we're a bunch of back stabbing b******."

Until women accept organization in their daily lives with other women, they have no discipline or respect to be in the Priesthood.

God is apparently waiting for women to humble themselves and work together.

Do women have the attributes necessary to do so?

God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time.

I know that this is not going to be a popular response but it is a truthful one.

GAIA:

Sorry, but with all due respect, your point isn't just unpopular -- it's illogical:

a.) ALL women are not backstabbers; All women are not deficient in humility, discipline or respect.

b.) (Some) Men do have Priesthood, and they are not all perfect or even "ready"; they do not all "work together" or have humility, discipline or respect (for themselves or others).

c.) God didn't wait until all men were "ready", to give some men the Priesthood.

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

One thing is indisputably true.

If God wanted women to have the priesthood enough to do something about it, then women would have the priesthood.

God's current position is eminently clear.

I'm not sure it's "eminently clear." It didn't seem to be prior to BRM saying to "forget everything they had said on the subject" and that they were speaking with a "limited light" when the ban was lifted on those born with higher levels of melanin.

Why was it that while our black brothers were denied the priesthood, our black sisters couldn't enter the temple either? If only men hold the priesthood, then why would women also be denied the priesthood ordinances and not be able to wear the holy vestments of the priesthood also? Furthermore, why do women wear the holy vestments of the priesthood if they do not hold the priesthood?

It is in fact eminently clear. There is no ambiguity on the matter. If God wanted women to have the priesthood enough to cause them to have the priesthood, then they would have the priesthood.

Since they don't have the priesthood, that leaves two possibilities:

1. He doesn't want them to have the priesthood.

2. He wants them to have the priesthood but choose to either do nothing about it or do so little about it that at present, they don't have it.

There is a third option actually: that God does not have the power to get what he wants.