What God Thinks About Women And The Priesthood

[Snow]

Hello Snow --

Let's be a bit more specific:

First: Yes, it is certainly "opposite" what CURRENT church leaders say.

Lesson in Church governance: Only current church leaders govern the church. Past and future leaders have no say so, nor do non-leaders.

However, their position is OPPOSITE the teachings of the Head of the Dispensation, (who GAVE WOMEN PRIESTHOOD) and those who were taught about Priesthood by him. You have not addressed that and seem to have ignored all the evidence (quotes and references) presented on it (Please see the two links i provided previously).

That's an intellectually false and dishonest assertion. It is a minority position theory that women somehow had or participated in the priesthood. To claim what you just did is absurd.

If you had read any of that material, you would know that MANY "authoritative source in the Church" disagree with you.

The only ones that count are current general authorities speaking in their official capacity as a Church leader - and the scriptures.

Name a single one (with the relevant quotes) who agrees with you.

Please actually read the material.

Read it and that's why I know you are plain wrong.

Let me ask you - what specifically did you do with this priesthood you think you have in the last year that you couldn't have done without it?

If someone wanted an opinion from me right now, on the spot, I would say no, women do not have the Priesthood today.

Elphaba

For someone who doesn't believe in God or the priesthood, you're really going out on a limb.

In you are in fact what you claim to be then you must believe that neither men nor women have the priesthood - you're grotty insinuations that I have trouble processing notwithstanding.

[Gaia]

The only ones that count are current general authorities speaking in their official capacity as a Church leader - and the scriptures.

GAIA:

Beleive me, i can certainly understand that position. At one time, i had rather powerful reason to advocate it, myself.

However, while it (at least to some degree) "solves" some questions, it also presents some real problems -- especially when modern and previous GA's disagree on major doctrinal issues, or when the "current prophet" is no longer current and his teachings are gradually questioned, phased out, even discredited. Few LDS realizle how little of Joseph Smith's teachings actually remain in the modern LDS church. How can we depend on the teachings of any leader -- especially after his death? Can anything ever be said to be unconditionally and consistently, dependably true and valid - independent of human circumstances?

I think the position of "Head of Dispensation" trumps "current Prophet" -- your thoughts evidently differ.

I think there is (doctrinally and historically supported) reason to beleive that there's a lot more going on here than a cut-and-dried doctrinal issue; you evidently differ.

I think it's entirely possible for honorable, faithful people to (respectfully) differ on such issues -- ie, to "agree to disagree, agreeably". I hope there, you will agree.

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Snow]

I think the position of "Head of Dispensation" trumps "current Prophet" -- your thoughts evidently differ.

Its not a matter of my thoughts or of your thoughts. The point is that if there is a priesthood - the authority to act in God name - in the LDS Church, then it is the Church thought that counts.

I think it's entirely possible for honorable, faithful people to (respectfully) differ on such issues -- ie, to "agree to disagree, agreeably". I hope there, you will agree.

Yes certainly. Thank you.

I ask again - what did you accomplish last year with your priesthood that you could not have done without it.

[Jason]

I ask again - what did you accomplish last year with your priesthood that you could not have done without it.

I raised a goldfish from the dead. Oh, but you weren't asking me. B)

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

I ask again - what did you accomplish last year with your priesthood that you could not have done without it.

I raised a goldfish from the dead. Oh, but you weren't asking me. B)

What proof do you have that the goldfish was truly dead?

[Elphaba]

For someone who doesn't believe in God or the priesthood, you're really going out on a limb.

In you are in fact what you claim to be then you must believe that neither men nor women have the priesthood - you're grotty insinuations that I have trouble processing notwithstanding.

Oh stop being so obtuse. Obviously, I am speaking to the official stance of the Church regarding women and the Priesthood. Are you claiming that any person who isn't a believing member of the Church has no right to state what the official doctrine is, even when any Tom, Sally or Larry can go to LDS.org and find it out for themselves? Please.

Earlier we had a misunderstanding about discussing atheism. I said it was nobody's business, and you said it was. You are correct, if you want to discuss my atheism, I have no problem with. I have put it out here on the boards, and therefore made it open for discussion.

What I meant was that it was nobody's business what specific websites I visited.

Likewise, I have the right to discuss Mormon doctrine if I want to. I was an active member of the Church for 25 years, so am not ignorant of its doctrine and practicies. And, obviously, it's a common topic on the board and therefore, I am allowed to respond to it.

However, no one is obligated to discuss it with me, including you. But if you do, please stop being so purposely imperceptive. You know I don't believe, and you also know that doesn't automatically mean I have nothing worthwhile to say.

Or do you?

Elphaba

[Gaia]

Its not a matter of my thoughts or of your thoughts. The point is that if there is a priesthood - the authority to act in God name - in the LDS Church, then it is the Church thought that counts.

GAIA:

With all due respect, the Church is an organization -- it doesn't "think".

The men who RUN the Church do -- presumably.

I ask again - what did you accomplish last year with your priesthood that you could not have done without it.

GAIA:

I am in a unique position in that regard, my personal example is really beyond the scope of this discussion.

However, if anyone likes, we could discuss what women *could* do that they cannot now do, ....

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Annabelli]

GAIA:

I am in a unique position in that regard, my personal example is really beyond the scope of this discussion.

However, if anyone likes, we could discuss what women *could* do that they cannot now do, ....

Blessings --

~Gaia

That sums it up to say that you have nothing on "your plate" beyond the scope of this discussion.

What "I cannot do now" is SIN. (I live in the USA.)

[sixpacktr]

GAIA:

I ask again - what did you accomplish last year with your priesthood that you could not have done without it.

GAIA:

I am in a unique position in that regard, my personal example is really beyond the scope of this discussion.

However, if anyone likes, we could discuss what women *could* do that they cannot now do, ....

I'll bite. Your response sounds like your used 'your' PH. I'd be interested in your unique position...

[Snow]

Oh stop being so obtuse. Obviously, I am speaking to the official stance of the Church regarding women and the Priesthood. Are you claiming that any person who isn't a believing member of the Church has no right to state what the official doctrine is, even when any Tom, Sally or Larry can go to LDS.org and find it out for themselves? Please.

Can't you keep your story straight? There is no doubt what the official doctrine of the Church is. Women don't have the priesthood. What you are discussing is non-official theoretical possibilities... about something you don't even think exists.

Earlier we had a misunderstanding about discussing atheism. I said it was nobody's business, and you said it was. You are correct, if you want to discuss my atheism, I have no problem with. I have put it out here on the boards, and therefore made it open for discussion.

What I meant was that it was nobody's business what specific websites I visited.

Of course it is somebody's business - you don't have any right to privacy of message board membership. Anybody can make it their business just by commenting on it.

Likewise, I have the right to discuss Mormon doctrine if I want to. I was an active member of the Church for 25 years, so am not ignorant of its doctrine and practicies. And, obviously, it's a common topic on the board and therefore, I am allowed to respond to it.

Not catching your point El. Your playing the victim card agains - as if someone is refusing you the right to discuss. Of course you have the right. - don't pop a vessel.

I am in a unique position in that regard, my personal example is really beyond the scope of this discussion.

I'll take that as a nothing.

[CrimsonKairos]

Women in the LDS Church HAVE the priesthood.

Women do not have priesthood offices or keys conferred upon them by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preside over and direct the exercise of those keys. I don't get what your point is.

Historically, priesthood has always been the authority to perform necessary ordinances and preside over the Lord's people. Women have never done either (and I'm not accepting lame examples like the female "judge" from the Bible).

I personally would have nothing against women performing ordinances or presiding if God said He wanted it that way. He hasn't. What's so hard to understand about that?

[a-train]

What is the Priesthood?

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

You know as well as I do.

Do women perform ordinances? Do they preside over congregations or missions or stakes, etc...?

If not, then it's pretty silly to say "Women in the LDS Church have the priesthood," if by that you mean they exercise priesthood keys necessary to act in the name of God in administering the gospel to the inhabitants of the earth.

If you mean something else, say something else. Don't muddy the issue with semantics or ambiguous claims.

[Palerider]

I am now dying to know what your UNIQUE experience was!!!!

[a-train]

Isn't the Priesthood the power and authority to act in the name of Jesus Christ?

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

That depends on what specifically is being done in the name of Jesus Christ.

Presently, the priesthood is the authority to perform ordinances and preside over the use of priesthood keys.

If you're trying to say, "Women can perform service in the name of Christ and so they have priesthood," ooooookay.

That is not historically what the sacerdotal praxis of the LDS Church connotes by the use of the term, "priesthood."

[a-train]

So then are we saying that the Priesthood is the power and authority to perform a segment or a certain list of things to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Prophecy, for example, is NOT on that list?

-a-train

[Snow]

So then are we saying that the Priesthood is the power and authority to perform a segment or a certain list of things to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Prophecy, for example, is NOT on that list?

-a-train

What do you mean by "prophecy"

The state of being the prophet/president of the Church?

Predicting the future?

Receiving revelation to govern the Church?

Calling the people to repentance?

[Elphaba]

Can't you keep your story straight? There is no doubt what the official doctrine of the Church is. Women don't have the priesthood. What you are discussing is non-official theoretical possibilities... about something you don't even think exists.

No I am not. Obviously you're having problems grasping this simple concept; perhaps it would help your brain to wrap around it if I added: "According to Mormon doctrine."? Done.

"According to Mormon doctrine, women do not currently hold the priesthood." There, does that relieve your angst over the subject?

(Such a lot of silly nonsense over one man's need to be right. Bleh.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Earlier we had a misunderstanding about discussing atheism. I said it was nobody's business, and you said it was. You are correct, if you want to discuss my atheism, I have no problem with. I have put it out here on the boards, and therefore made it open for discussion.

What I meant was that it was nobody's business what specific websites I visited.

Of course it is somebody's business - you don't have any right to privacy of message board membership. Anybody can make it their business just by commenting on it. No, it is not their business. His/her actions are irrelevant. The rules of a civil society call for keeping one's business private.

When Annabelli started the thread about me being in an atheist priesthood, and accusing me of attending a certain website, she crossed a line that was none of her business.

Of course I realize that means nothing on the web, and that she can stalk me anywhere I go. I realize I have no privacy. Nevertheless, common courtesy says she has no right to do what she did.

I'm talking, of course, about the rules of a civil society, not what people can get away with online. Not people like Annabelli who have no sense of propriety whatsoever. And no, she literally had no right to say what she did about me. I'm serious. There is a chance she commited libel, as there was malice involved. She said she was looking for information to debate me, and her subsequent comments were definitely malicious. So, no, she legally did not have a right to say, or "write" what she did.

Likewise, I have the right to discuss Mormon doctrine if I want to. I was an active member of the Church for 25 years, so am not ignorant of its doctrine and practicies. And, obviously, it's a common topic on the board and therefore, I am allowed to respond to it.

Not catching your point El. Your playing the victim card agains - as if someone is refusing you the right to discuss. Of course you have the right. - don't pop a vessel.

I was responding to your comment: "For someone who doesn't believe in God or the priesthood, you're really going out on a limb." Stupid me, I inferred you meant I didn't have the qualifications to discuss the priesthood with any certainty . Can't imagine how I got that impression.

Therefore, I felt it important to give you my credentials. Typical Snow style, you changed the goalpost, and then threw down the hackneyed "victim card."

I think I've proven myself on that front. No further comment necessary.

Elphaba

Edit to change "say" to "write"

[pam]

As moderator of this site:

"Snow you now have the floor"

[a-train]

Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. To prophesy is to declare one's testimony as directed by the Holy Ghost.

'And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.' (Rev. 19:10)

Joseph Smith was fond of this definition and used Rev. 19:10 with it regularly such as:

'Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this.' (TPJS pp.160)

-a-train

[Annabelli]

Hi Annabelli,

Until women accept organization in their daily lives with other women, they have no discipline or respect to be in the Priesthood.

God is apparently waiting for women to humble themselves and work together.

Do women have the attributes necessary to do so?

God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time.

I know that this is not going to be a popular response but it is a truthful one.

Interesting ideas. When I read them, I wondered "On what basis is she making these assertions?" Are those based on some kind of support or just possibilities you've thought of? Thank you

These possibilities derive from observation of the female population in society and how they react to cultural transitions. I utilized much of my self directed study in response for the need to unionize the lower working class which consist mainly of women and especially in health care.

Women's organizations do pressure women to recruit and it is necessary to evaluate their platforms. I do not belong to any of the organizations.

Women base their religious preferences from the spiritual heart. Most women choose families first and a career that is compatible when it is necessary to work outside the home. Women rarely choose religion for authority unless they are "Queen Bees."

Cultural transitions almost always occur with war and the loss of a generation of men. There are many displaced women due to this. Example: Vietnam and women entering the work force...not a coincidence.

Women marrying younger and older men has created a high divorce rate creating single mothers and children.

"God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time."

Do we know the name of the first black man who was called into the Priesthood?

[CrimsonKairos]

So then are we saying that the Priesthood is the power and authority to perform a segment or a certain list of things to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Prophecy, for example, is NOT on that list?

Why would you need the priesthood to know that Jesus is the Christ?

Why would you need the priesthood to receive revelations about future events?

Both of the above examples involve the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is available to both men and women. Women can receive revelations for their families just as men can. It's not about priesthood, it's about having the companionship of the Spirit. The wives of the great patriarchs (Sarah, Rebekah, Rachel) often displayed a spiritual insight beyond that of their spouses at various times. Did they have to have the priesthood to be spiritually in tune with God? Of course not.

One trivial point: we aren't given priesthood power, we are given authority. We acquire power in the priesthood as we purify our hands and hearts and become worthy of exercising our authority. I always wince when someone starts a blessing with, "By the power of the holy Melchizedek Priesthood which we hold..." How do I know they have power in it? I know they have the authority, but that doesn't mean they have power springing from goodness. Like I said...trivial point...pet peeve...not worth interrupting a blessing over!

[Snow]

No I am not. Obviously you're having problems grasping this simple concept; perhaps it would help your brain to wrap around it if I added: "According to Mormon doctrine."? Done.

"According to Mormon doctrine, women do not currently hold the priesthood." There, does that relieve your angst over the subject?

Fine - if that is the point you are now trying to make, according to Mormon Doctrine women do not have the priesthood - which makes all your argumentation irrelevant.

(Such a lot of silly nonsense over one man's need to be right. Bleh.)

Careful El, the hypocrisy meter is running.

No, it is not their business. His/her actions are irrelevant. The rules of a civil society call for keeping one's business private.

Are you for real? We are talking about public message boards. No one is rumaging through your dresser drawers.

When Annabelli started the thread about me being in an atheist priesthood, and accusing me of attending a certain website, she crossed a line that was none of her business.

That imaginary line in your head? If I run across any websites where you post, and you're posting something interesting, like being in an atheist priesthood, I'll be sure to open up a few posts about it. Just because you're embarrased doesn't make it wrong.

Of course I realize that means nothing on the web, and that she can stalk me anywhere I go. I realize I have no privacy. Nevertheless, common courtesy says she has no right to do what she did.

Stalking you? You claimed that you weren't on that site. How can she stalk you if your not there? Your idea of comon courtesy is a crock. I believed you when you said you didn't post there. Now it seems that you may be posting somewhere that you are very concerned that we don't find out about.... speaks to that hidden agenda of yours that you have trouble keeping hidden.

I'm talking, of course, about the rules of a civil society, not what people can get away with online. Not people like Annabelli who have no sense of propriety whatsoever. And no, she literally had no right to say what she did about me. I'm serious. There is a chance she commited libel, as there was malice involved. She said she was looking for information to debate me, and her subsequent comments were definitely malicious. So, no, she legally did not have a right to say, or "write" what she did.

Egads - libel? Can you spell hyperbole?

I was responding to your comment: "For someone who doesn't believe in God or the priesthood, you're really going out on a limb." Stupid me, I inferred you meant I didn't have the qualifications to discuss the priesthood with any certainty . Can't imagine how I got that impression.

I simply meant that your point was too substantive.

Therefore, I felt it important to give you my credentials. Typical Snow style, you changed the goalpost, and then threw down the hackneyed "victim card."

If the card fits...

[Elphaba]

These possibilities derive from observation of the female population in society and how they react to cultural transitions.

Whose observations?

I utilized much of my self directed study in response for the need to unionize the lower working class which consist mainly of women and especially in health care.

What were the parameters of your "self-directed study?

Women's organizations do pressure women to recruit and it is necessary to evaluate their platforms. I do not belong to any of the organizations.

Call for references. What women's organizations?

Women base their religious preferences from the spiritual heart. Most women choose families first and a career that is compatible when it is necessary to work outside the home. Women rarely choose religion for authority unless they are "Queen Bees."

Call for references.

Cultural transitions almost always occur with war and the loss of a generation of men. There are many displaced women due to this. Example: Vietnam and women entering the work force...not a coincidence.

Women initially entered the workforce because of WWII. The cultural transition had already begun, although Vietnam, in conjunction with the women's movement, obviously escalated the number women entering the workforce.

However, the Civil Rights Movement and the Women's Movement were not initially triggered by war. Their histories go back a century before their rights were actually realized.

Women marrying younger and older men has created a high divorce rate creating single mothers and children.

CFR

"God is not going to call women to the Priesthood one at a time; God will call them all at the same time."

Do we know the name of the first black man who was called into the Priesthood

Elijah Able.

I agreed with Dr. T's question, and as far as I am concerned, you still haven't answered it. What is your point.

Elphaba