Gender Identification - NO HATE!

[Rob Osborn]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, I thought I pointed that out.  

There are some people who are born with sexually ambiguous bodies.  Some are hermaphrodites.  Some are fertile.  Others (like Klinefelter's syndrome) are infertile.  Some are XY chromosomed individuals who (due to hormonal imbalance in the womb) ended up with female parts (and the reverse resulting in male parts).

Not all transgendered are the type that the OP described.  For his (the OP's) case, I'd agree with you that it is unambiguously just plain confusion and emotion that is not based in reality.  But I'm talking to YOU about these other cases where there is ambiguity.

Ambiguity is rare in the trans community. 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You think we should not?

Carb, if this guy shows sympathy for 9/11 widows let's chalk it up to a win and move on. 

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You think we should not?

Absolutely not. Why should we have empathy towards the devils tools?

[Rob Osborn]

Compassion towards a sinner is what Christ taught us. He didnt tell us to have empathy with sin.

[NightSG]

41 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, in the case of the OP, it sounds like he's trying to be compliant with the Law of the Gospel.

Not really; I didn't see any mention of seeking professional help.  

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Catholic all male schools have a higher percentage of homosexuals than the general public.. Thats a fact.

And you are dense.

I just told you... Catholic All Male Schools are SEMINARIES.  They prepare men for Holy Orders.  Gay Catholics are encouraged to go into Holy Orders.  So yes, a lot of gay Catholics attend Seminaries.

So, what is going through your mind?  That Catholics train men to be gay in their Catholic Schools?  This is what happens when you live in your own bubble. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Compassion towards a sinner is what Christ taught us. He didnt tell us to have empathy with sin.

Hello Rob.  Being gay is not a sin.  Having sex with someone your own gender is the sin.  They are not the same.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I just told you... Catholic All Male Schools are SEMINARIES.  They prepare men for Holy Orders.  Gay Catholics are encouraged to go into Holy Orders.  So yes, a lot of gay Catholics attend Seminaries.

Now, hold on.  Not that I'm defending Rob.  But I grew up with some Catholic friends who went to the all boys school and an all girls school.  They weren't seminaries in the sense that only those INTENDING to become priests would attend.  They were private schools.

That said, if many such schools are indeed seminaries, then that would at least skew the data if what you're saying is correct about homosexuals seeking out the catholic priesthood.

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Are you dense?

This is what happens when you live in your own bubble. 

No argument here.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Hello Rob.  Being gay is not a sin.  Having sex with someone your own gender is the sin.  They are not the same.

I define being gay or homosexual as acting it out. the tendency to have SSA is not being gay or being homosexual. Perhaps some who say they are gay who have SSA but do not act exists, I dobt define that as being gay. Its no different than saying I am attractef to lots if women but I am not an adulterer.

[anatess2]

25 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, hold on.  Not that I'm defending Rob.  But I grew up with some Catholic friends who went to the all boys school and an all girls school.  They weren't seminaries in the sense that only those INTENDING to become priests would attend.  They were private schools.

That said, if many such schools are indeed seminaries, then that would at least skew the data if what you're saying is correct about homosexuals seeking out the catholic priesthood.

Rob is pointing to a statistic about Catholic All Male Schools having more gay students than the general population.  There are Catholic Boys High Schools and then Catholic Seminaries (College).  He didn't specify what is included in the statistics.

In places like the Philippines, Boys Highs are attended by the general population as well as people preparing for acceptance to a Seminary.  There are also Boys Highs like Don Bosco that is the College Prep High School for Seminary and boys attend these schools for the main purpose of getting continuity acceptance into the Seminary.  In places like the US, the general population attend Public Schools and so those attending Boys Highs are skewed more to those who are preparing for acceptance to a Seminary especially when you include Boys Highs like Don Bosco than you would find in the Philippines. 

Therefore, if you only count Boys Highs in the US, it is logical to expect a slightly higher rate of gay males than the general population which does not exist in Philippine Boys Highs.  If you count Seminaries in the mix, then you'll have a marked difference regardless of whether you're in the Philippines or in the US.

Interestingly, School of the Arts also have a high percentage of gay and lesbian students.  I guess in Rob's worldview, Art Schools also condition their students to be gay.  There's a running stereotype in my son's High School that says - Boys who want to be noticed by the Girls should attend the Arts School since the boy to girl ratio is 1:4 and half the boys are gay.  Competition will be almost non-existent.

Edited February 22, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Absolutely not. Why should we have empathy towards the devils tools?

Living in a bubble again.  I've heard interviews with porn stars.  They're not demonic.  Most of them simply don't know any better.  Many get into it because they had no marketable skills, they were never taught to value their chastity, and they ended up doing it just to pay the bills.  Yes, I think we ought to have some empathy for such individuals.

One particular star started the XXX church which is a Christian church for former porn stars who are trying to get back to the strait and narrow.  One recent convert (to the XXX Church) said that he only got into it because he was starving.  He had just lost his last minimum wage job.  He was about to become homeless and he saw this ad.  He went and he got paid.  He was able to eat.  He was so grateful just to be able to eat, he didn't think about how wrong it was.  Later, he just got addicted to the sex, the money, and the fame.  He finally got to a point where he knew all his life was a waste and he came back to God.

No, I'm not saying it was right in any way shape or form.  But, YES, we ought to have some level of sympathy for such individuals.

I also read a story about Hugh Hefner which really made me pity him.  The details are inappropriate to be repeated here.  But to draw a metaphor:  I had set up a bunch of mouse traps around the house.  I heard a "snap".  And I went to take out the mouse.  It was still alive and eating the bait.  The bar was cutting off its head, but he was still eating.  I wondered how he didn't know he was already dead.  The article I read about Hugh made me believe he was that mouse.  He was already dead, but he just didn't know it.  I had such pity for him and felt such disgust for his life.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Guest

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Ambiguity is rare in the trans community. 

Thanks Rob.  Curious - do you think there might be something we can't see that indicates ambiguity?  Or is the only acceptable definition of ambiguity one that is visible to human sight?  

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

Not really; I didn't see any mention of seeking professional help.  

Thanks.  Though why should one seek professional help for a correct interpretation of one's self?  Doesn't this assume there is something in the Gospel - however you define that - that indicates it is wrong?  If it does, can you please provide the biblical reference saying feelings that the gender of the body and the spirit are not in alignment is sinful?  Please, keep homosexuality, cross-dressing, demanding unisex bathrooms, etc., - out of this.  i am only referring to feelings of conflict about the gender of one's body and spirit - not to stereotypes we create about people who voice their transgender feelings.

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I define being gay or homosexual as acting it out. the tendency to have SSA is not being gay or being homosexual. Perhaps some who say they are gay who have SSA but do not act exists, I dobt define that as being gay. Its no different than saying I am attractef to lots if women but I am not an adulterer.

Okay, so this is the problem.

Being gay does not mean you are acting it out.  It is just like a guy who gets attracted to a girl but he didn't do anything about it.  There is no difference in the desire, there is no difference in the choice to not act on it.  The only difference is, the guy got attracted to a girl, the gay guy got attracted to another guy.  That's why he calls himself gay.  The guy is fine because eventually, when the right moment comes, he can go marry the girl he is attracted to and express himself sexually.  The gay guy is stuck because... there will never be a right moment that will come that will allow him to go marry the other guy so he can express himself sexually.

Do you see now where the empathy for gay people comes in?  Can you imagine living a life where you can't express yourself sexually?

Edited February 22, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

\

I also read a story about Hugh Hefner which really made me pity him

As he reaches the end of his life (he is over 90) I realize how shallow and sad his life is/was. I finished a biography about him recently. While he seems to be happy-I think right now he would admit that his life was lacking in some ways. It wasn't a hard life, but it was shallow. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by MormonGator

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, so this is the problem.

Being gay does not mean you are acting it out.  It is just like a guy who gets attracted to a girl but he didn't do anything about it.  There is no difference in the desire, there is no difference in the choice to not act on it.  The only difference is, the guy got attracted to a girl, the gay guy got attracted to another guy.  That's why he calls himself gay.  The guy is fine because eventually, when the right moment comes, he can go marry the girl he is attracted to and express himself sexually.  The gay guy is stuck because... there will never be a right moment that will come that will allow him to go marry the other guy so he can express himself sexually.

Do you see now where the empathy for gay people comes in?  Can you imagine living a life where you can't express yourself sexually?

Like I said, I do not have empathy for sin.  

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Living in a bubble again.  I've heard interviews with porn stars.  They're not demonic.  Most of them simply don't know any better.  Many get into it because they had no marketable skills, they were never taught to value their chastity, and they ended up doing it just to pay the bills.  Yes, I think we ought to have some empathy for such individuals.

One particular star started the XXX church which is a Christian church for former porn stars who are trying to get back to the strait and narrow.  One recent convert (to the XXX Church) said that he only got into it because he was starving.  He had just lost his last minimum wage job.  He was about to become homeless and he saw this ad.  He went and he got paid.  He was able to eat.  He was so grateful just to be able to eat, he didn't think about how wrong it was.  Later, he just got addicted to the sex, the money, and the fame.  He finally got to a point where he knew all his life was a waste and he came back to God.

No, I'm not saying it was right in any way shape or form.  But, YES, we ought to have some level of sympathy for such individuals.

I also read a story about Hugh Hefner which really made me pity him.  The details are inappropriate to be repeated here.  But to draw a metaphor:  I had set up a bunch of mouse traps around the house.  I heard a "snap".  And I went to take out the mouse.  It was still alive and eating the bait.  The bar was cutting off its head, but he was still eating.  I wondered how he didn't know he was already dead.  The article I read about Hugh made me believe he was that mouse.  He was already dead, but he just didn't know it.  I had such pity for him and felt such disgust for his life.

Theres a big difference between sympathy and empathy and how they are used in this context. 

In the LGBT community, having empathy means siding with their cause because you can feel what they desire and want it for them too

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Theres a big difference between sympathy and empathy and how they are used in this context. 

In the LGBT community, having empathy means siding with their cause because you can feel what they desire and want it for them too

Pack your bags!  We're taking a ride on the semantics train!

Edited February 22, 2017 by Guest

[NightSG]

35 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Though why should one seek professional help for a correct interpretation of one's self?

If what you think you are doesn't match what's between your legs, then it's your interpretation that's incorrect, not God's accuracy at playing pin the genitals on the mortal body.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, NightSG said:

If what you think you are doesn't match what's between your legs, then it's your interpretation that's incorrect, not God's accuracy at playing pin the genitals on the mortal body.

You're probably right.

But, I've learned long ago to never pretend to know what God will and will not do within the Godly bounds of eternal law.  So, unless you say it is Eternal Law that the presence of a mortal genital is the spirit's gender (in which case, hermaphrodites are Eternal Law breakers), then it is futile to put limits on God.

[anatess2]

24 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Like I said, I do not have empathy for sin.  

Explain where in my post is the sin.  I'll paste the post in its entirety right here to make it easier for you:

Being gay does not mean you are acting it out.  It is just like a guy who gets attracted to a girl but he didn't do anything about it.  There is no difference in the desire, there is no difference in the choice to not act on it.  The only difference is, the guy got attracted to a girl, the gay guy got attracted to another guy.  That's why he calls himself gay. 

Okay, where in that paragraph above is the sin?

[lostinwater]

3 minutes ago, NightSG said:

If what you think you are doesn't match what's between your legs, then it's your interpretation that's incorrect, not God's accuracy at playing pin the genitals on the mortal body.

Thank-you.  But what about these people?

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Probably, you are right in most cases.  But to claim there is no basis for confusion seems incorrect to me.  And it seems similarly incorrect to declare that just because we can't see something that the basis for it's existence is mental illness or willful mortal sin.  

Do you disagree?  Is the only acceptable evidence that might justify a feeling of conflict it's visibility to us?

 

[Suzie]

From the Church official web site about same sex- attraction:

If I’m Faithful Enough, Will My Attractions Go Away?

A: The intensity of same-sex attraction is not a measure of your faithfulness. Many people pray for years and do all they can to be obedient in an effort to reduce same-sex attraction, yet find they are still attracted to the same sex. Same-sex attraction is experienced along a spectrum of intensity and is not the same for everyone. Some are attracted to both genders, and others are attracted exclusively to the same gender. For some, feelings of same-sex attraction, or at least the intensity of those feelings, may diminish over time. In any case, a change in attraction should not be expected or demanded as an outcome by parents or leaders.

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/frequently-asked-questions

I thought some people here seriously need to check that web site.

 

[NightSG]

30 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you.  But what about these people?

What about Charles Manson?

Just because several people have the same delusion doesn't make it any less of a delusion.  This is why scientists observe and experiment rather than just voting on what they want to set facts to be.

[Rob Osborn]

30 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Explain where in my post is the sin.  I'll paste the post in its entirety right here to make it easier for you:

Being gay does not mean you are acting it out.  It is just like a guy who gets attracted to a girl but he didn't do anything about it.  There is no difference in the desire, there is no difference in the choice to not act on it.  The only difference is, the guy got attracted to a girl, the gay guy got attracted to another guy.  That's why he calls himself gay. 

Okay, where in that paragraph above is the sin?

The definition and context of the word "empathy" is definable where one places themselves into the others shoes to feel and side with them in their feelings.  There is a context of morality that plays into the semantics of usage of the word. The LGBT want us to have empathy (in a strong moral sense) showing we affirm their plight.

We have to get the semantics correct before we go accusing each other of things because we dont understand words in their proper context and semantics.

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

What about Charles Manson?

Just because several people have the same delusion doesn't make it any less of a delusion.  This is why scientists observe and experiment rather than just voting on what they want to set facts to be.

Thanks for the feedback.

Sorry - but i guess i'm struggling to see the Charles Manson connection.  Can you clarify?

So to confirm, you believe the people in the study noted above are also delusional?  that study is referring to people whose bodies exhibit physically apparent conflicts between male/female parts.  i understand you think people like my friend are mentally ill (and i respect that, though i disagree), but to associate people with physically deformed bodies with mental delusion merely by nature of their bodies?

i guess i'm just not following.  No offense meant - just hoping to get some context.