No Ma'am, That's Not Doctrine

[Gaia]

___Snow___

In one of the Priesthood - Women thread it is asserted that according to LDS doctrine women hold or may hold the priesthood. In promotion of the view that women, according to LDS doctrine, hold the priesthood, a number of quotes and sources were posted - Council Minutes, blessings to individual members, writings of excomunicated Mormons, etc.

Any knowledgeable Mormon knows that Council Minutes, Signature Books books, blessings, etc DO NOT constitute LDS doctrine,

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But these things can suggest the historical context in which certain doctrines develop.

___Snow___

as any knowledgeable Mormon knows that regardless of whether they like it or not, women do not have the Priesthood - not according to LDS doctrine.

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If by "Priesthood" you mean ecclesiastical position in the Church, then LDS history does not suggest that women were to hold such a thing. However, it would also seem that early Mormonism took a much broader view of Priesthood than mere ecclesiastical position. Remnants of this broader view are still visible in such things as female administrators in the Temple.

It may be true that the modern Church disavows such doctrines as women holding the Priesthood, and that they are even uncomfortable in the Priesthood role they share when it comes to the Fulness of the Ordinances. It seems true that the Church has taken a different evolutionary path, and has abandoned not only this concept, but a myriad of other interrelated concepts, such as plural marriage, adoption, the United Order, Brigham Young's Adam teaching, and so forth. These were all laid aside in what historian Thom Alexander has called the period of Mormon Transition, extending roughly from 1870 ~ 1930.

To be evenhanded, I suppose that far fewer women would be enthusiastic about sharing in the Priesthood, if it meant the resurrection of polygamy. <cough> But there you have it, like love and marriage.

;-)

Kindest,

Rajah Manchou

GAIA:

Hello Rajah - -Thanks so much for an excellent summation; that was exactly (part of) what i was trying to say.

Blessings to you -

~Gaia

[Maureen]

And now we've come full circle to the debates of a couple of weeks ago, when I almost decided to drop off of this site, because all you got were some angry women stating that the 'men' had screwed things up, that they 'kept them down', and that the male leaders in the church weren't worth a damn...

Boo flippin' hoo...

sixpacktr, you are not intimating that if you were in a leadership position and a member of your ward came to you to say they had been abused; that your response to them would be:

Boo flippin' hoo!

Are you?

M.

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

And now we've come full circle to the debates of a couple of weeks ago, when I almost decided to drop off of this site, because all you got were some angry women stating that the 'men' had screwed things up, that they 'kept them down', and that the male leaders in the church weren't worth a damn...

Boo flippin' hoo...

sixpacktr, you are not intimating that if you were in a leadership position and a member of your ward came to you to say they had been abused; that your response to them would be:

Boo flippin' hoo!

Are you?

M.

Good golly M, what type of person do you think I am? I have 3 daughters. I am more in tune with feminine feelings than is natural for a guy to be!

My remark was aimed at those malcontents that constantly look at others as the cause of their troubles, particularly the male leadership in the church. Men are not perfect, but the leaders are doing a great job.

We just had a general PH meeting in our stake, and the SP spoke just of that: Brethren, trust your leaders. He said it several times. It makes me sad that there are those that like to throw rocks and accuse these brethren of 'not caring'.

Boo flippin' hoo was aimed at those that gripe about their leaders. Not someone with a real problem...

[Maureen]

Good golly M, what type of person do you think I am?

That's just it sixpacktr, I'm starting to wonder. Lately, most of your responses that I've read have been from someone annoyed and down right angry. It doesn't hurt to see the humour in situations sometimes.

M.

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

Good golly M, what type of person do you think I am?

That's just it sixpacktr, I'm starting to wonder. Lately, most of your responses that I've read have been from someone annoyed and down right angry. It doesn't hurt to see the humour in situations sometimes.

M.

I'll agree with that. I would say more annoyed than angry.

As I've stated in other places, I get annoyed with those that continue to spout opinions and outright false doctrine as the tenets of the church. I have no problem with those that actually are asking to really know. Then there are those that poke to show how we are out of the way.

I see a lot of humor in a lot of things. Just read my signature lines!

[Gaia]

As I've stated in other places, I get annoyed with those that continue to spout opinions and outright false doctrine as the tenets of the church. I have no problem with those that actually are asking to really know. Then there are those that poke to show how we are out of the way.

GAIA:

Hello Sixpack --

I certainly hope you're not referring to me, there.

I don't think (and never intended to suggest) that women having Priesthood is (currently) a "tenet" of the LDS Church. Such a position is obviously, demonstrably absurd.

I have stated that there is historical evidence that suggests it was taught at one time that faithful LDS women had and exercised Priesthood -- but those are two very different things, as i hope would be clear to anyone who actually tried to understand my messages, rather than just condemn them out of hand.

And secondly, i have gone out of my way to say that i think there are many fine Priesthood holders in the Church who have blessed my own life, and who i am sure bless others.

As far as the current LDS leaders are concerned:

I think/ feel that they are generally good, honorable men who try their very best to do what they feel is right. Like all humans, they are occasionally subject to human flaws, weaknesses, and errors; yet at the same time, occasionally demonstrate amazing strengths, insight, wisdom, and compassion.

I hope that makes my position(s) clear --

~Gaia

[a-train]

My mother is one of those women who have left the Church. She was a victim of abuse in her home as a young girl. Her cross-dressing father was baptized and attended the temple while hiding his dark secrets. He died without ever being exposed or coming clean. Of course, I didn't witness this, I only have the testimony of my mother.

She did not fall away because the Church failed to help her with her troubles at home, rather the Church was her ONLY help. Her Relief Society President allowed her to move in with her to finish high school outside of the abusive home. My mother went on to marry a great LDS man and live happily ever after.....

....until her new husband was murdered only 7 years into their marriage. My mother was a widow with three children at the age of 25. She held fast to the gospel and raised her children in righteousness breaking the cycle of abuse in her family's long history.

But then as I left for my mission and my sister married, my mother got a little careless. Scripture studies ceased. Prayers were forgotten. Tithing was overlooked. Meetings became a burden. She ultimately decided the Church was too overbearing and she could have a drink now and then and it wouldn't hurt. She hasn't been active for 11 years or so now and she is very addicted to cigars, drinks regularly, is in a homosexual relationship, and has become somewhat of a man hater.

In my opinion, her fall wasn't the folly of the brethren in the Church nor of the Church itself. She did it all herself. She gave up a piece at a time until repentance seemed impossible and then gave in to the rationalizations and justifications offered by the antis. 'Those current Apostles are off.' 'Joseph Smith would have understood.' 'Jesus didn't do it this way.' These are the typical responses of those who do not live the gospel.

I hope and pray daily that she will wake up to her awful state and find the strength to repent. She is so unhappy. She has moments, but they always end and she goes back to sadness. I hope she will ultimately be clean and pure and with my father in eternal happiness.

-a-train

[Gaia]

I hope and pray daily that she will wake up to her awful state and find the strength to repent. She is so unhappy. She has moments, but they always end and she goes back to sadness. I hope she will ultimately be clean and pure and with my father in eternal happiness.

-a-train

GAIA:

Hello A-Train. Thanks for sharing that difficult story.

First, i'd like to say that i'm so sorry your mom has had such sorrow and grief in her life.

I don't think i or anybody else can judge your Mom; You of course are in a somewhat different position since as her child, her actions affected you -- thus, (i believe) that what happened is between her and the Lord, and to some degree, you.

I imagine she did the best she could at the time. I believe and hope that the Lord will take even those things we cannot know about the intentions, the heart and mind and spirit, into accout, when he does judge each of us.

Let me give a brief example of what i'm thinking:

I've never smoked; as a young co-ed at BYU, i converted to the Church so i never "learned" that nasty habit, although my parents were "3+-packs-aday" smokers for many years. I hate the smell and detest second-hand smoke. But when some LDS complain about having to sit next to smokers at Church, i always wonder what it would be like if our sins all had their own unique, quite discernable scent(s) -- what offensive odors might each of us be giving off, constantly? {rueful grin}

I will add this:

In my experience, the most Christ-like people i know -- and those who have the most lasting and positive impact upon the (mortal and eternal) lives of others -- are people who resist the (very human!) need to blame, punish, castigate, etc; and who instead, merely try to love, as an example of Christ's compassion for them and their weaknesses, and of His invitation to all, to come and partake of His mercy, Grace, and love.

Meanwhile, i do hope your mom eventually finds healing, happiness, and fulfillment.

Blessings to you both --

~Gaia

[BenRaines]

Hey where I live bring on the smokers. I would much rather have the smell of smoker in a meeting than a meeting where I can't hear the speakers, and I sit only four rows from the front, due to the screaming children and parents who tune them out. Where are the cry rooms we used to have in the buildings?

Now I sound like a grumpy old man.

Ben Raines

[Alaskagain]

Now I sound like a grumpy old man.

Ben Raines

Because, guess what? You ARE a GOM!

[Canuck Mormon]

Hey where I live bring on the smokers. I would much rather have the smell of smoker in a meeting than a meeting where I can't hear the speakers, and I sit only four rows from the front, due to the screaming children and parents who tune them out. Where are the cry rooms we used to have in the buildings?

Now I sound like a grumpy old man.

Ben Raines

I agree with you, and I'm not THAT old. We just moved to a new ward, and it's full of little kids. They are playing in the isles and making a horrific racket while the parents just sit there and do nothing. But this is a topic for another thread. Sorry.

The point is that women do not hold the Priesthood. They might some day, who knows. Right now, they don't.

[a-train]

For certain, love, charity, and support is the work of the Church. However, we cannot confuse the righteous counsel to avoid sin with some sort of ill feeling. Some among us, like my mom, say things like: 'I've paid enough tithing.' or 'I've read enough scriptures.' or 'I am justified in my sexual relations due to my circumstances.' They imagine that the motive of the members of the Church in declaring certain actions to be sins in need of abandonment is that of oppression, control, and fascism.

I, myself, have been on the receiving end of counsel to repent. Who hasn't? Everyone but Jesus needs repentance. But this is how Satan ruins testimonies. He first uses the basic temptations associated with unrighteous conduct to lure one into transgression and then binds them to it with feelings of resentment and suspicion towards the LORD's ministers who are in only a righteous attempt to free the individual from the REAL OPPRESSION of sin. Satan uses the social misdeeds of the self-righteous to further blind the minds of those so caught up in this snare. They imagine all the LDS people and especially the LDS leaders are as self-righteous and oppressive as the individual who they found to be so.

Now this is key: An old counselor to the bishopric in the MTC while I was there used to say repeatedly: 'Only YOU can choose to be offended.'

This is true! Only I can choose to be offended by the smell of cigarette smoke. Am I so paranoid that I imagine that the smoker puffed away all the while grunting: 'I'll show that a-train, he'll smell this smoke! That'll get him!' Indeed, the smoker did not so engage the act in order to afflict me or out of any vindictive feeling. Am I so great and grand that I should think that this person should have known I would be in this meeting? Should he have known how disrespectful it is to me to smell like that in my presence? What a ridiculous mindset! We should choose NOT to be offended, but work in the spirit of brotherhood and charity to free both ourselves and our neighbors from all offences.

There are so many verses in the New Testament to the end that we should not be so offended that I gave up trying to decide which one to quote here.

-a-train

[StrawberryFields]

I believe these threads have run their due course here at LDS Talk and need to be closed.

I also believe that most of our Priesthood Leadership are very good men who strive to do their service according to the ways of the Lord. Having the Priesthood and being in a leadership position does not mean that they are perfect it simply means that they have been chosen to lead and direct. Being a woman and having the ability to carry and raise children does not mean that we will do our jobs perfectly either. Trust in the Lord that if something doesn't go perfectly that HE will be there to buoy us up and pick up the slack. In order for the Lord to help us we need to first humble ourselves before HIM and ask.

If we have been wronged in someway we need to learn to forgive. If we have wronged another we need to seek forgiveness. Life is not made entirely of absolutes, so we need to trust in the Lord to be there. I want to be held to the same measuring stick of forgiveness that I offer the person who has wronged me. After we have done everything we can to seek forgiveness it is up to that person to forgive. If someone has wronged us and they happen to serve in a leadership position we need to trust in the Lord to be there and provide a way for us to be made whole. It is not our position to bring that person or the church down just as one mother makes a mistake in raising her child doesn’t mean that all who are mothers are at fault. Trust in the Lord, for he can see the eternal picture. Forgive those who have harmed you and move forward. Only pain and heartache will come from holding onto to something that we cannot control. There is a sweet peace that will come into our lives if we forgive and let the Lord be the judge.