No Ma'am, That's Not Doctrine

[Snow]

In one of the Priesthood - Women thread it is asserted that according to LDS doctrine women hold or may hold the priesthood. In promotion of the view that women, according to LDS doctrine, hold the priesthood, a number of quotes and sources were posted - Council Minutes, blessings to individual members, writings of excomunicated Mormons, etc.

Any knowledgeable Mormon knows that Council Minutes, Signature Books books, blessings, etc DO NOT constitute LDS doctrine, just as any knowledgeable Mormon knows that regardless of whether they like it or not, women do not have the Priesthood - not according to LDS doctrine.

In a recent press release, the Church said this:

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith."

A fuller discussion of what constitutes doctrine can be found at:

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp...0004e94610aRCRD

and

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What...on_Doctrine.pdf

[pam]

Thank you Snow. I was actually wondering why we were even debating whether women are unhappy or not. To me "who cares?" It's the way it is. (Sorry SF this is NOT directed at you but at comments on the threads.) I've never questioned it one way or the other.

[Josie]

Thank you Snow.

Josie

[Traveler]

In one of the Priesthood - Women thread it is asserted that according to LDS doctrine women hold or may hold the priesthood. In promotion of the view that women, according to LDS doctrine, hold the priesthood, a number of quotes and sources were posted - Council Minutes, blessings to individual members, writings of excomunicated Mormons, etc.

Any knowledgeable Mormon knows that Council Minutes, Signature Books books, blessings, etc DO NOT constitute LDS doctrine, just as any knowledgeable Mormon knows that regardless of whether they like it or not, women do not have the Priesthood - not according to LDS doctrine.

In a recent press release, the Church said this:

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith."

A fuller discussion of what constitutes doctrine can be found at:

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp...0004e94610aRCRD

and

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What...on_Doctrine.pdf

Interesting - but I wonder???? When someone that is not LDS is about telling LDS what it is that we believe; what is to be gained in explaining to them what it is that we believe.

I think part of the problem is that some people think men and women are equal. In math (my expertise) equal means exactly that = the same, no difference, able to substitute one for the other without changing the truthfulness or value or the outcome. Thus, many that think men and women are equal cannot understand why women do not hold the priesthood. And since they see the priesthood as a symbol of power they feel that everyone that is equal should share the same of it.

Now my friend Snow, I am quite sure you understand that men and women are different and therefore not the same or equal. You also understand that when a man and a woman marry that their marriage is greater than ether or both of them and that they work as partners – together – without one having authority over the other. And I am sure that you know as I do that priesthood is not authority of one person over another – especially for a husband and wife. But it would appear that as much as most of us LDS understand this principle that most non-LDS do not understand this and often resent any LDS that would attempt to set them right.

The Traveler

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>

In one of the Priesthood - Women thread it is asserted that according to LDS doctrine women hold or may hold the priesthood. In promotion of the view that women, according to LDS doctrine, hold the priesthood, a number of quotes and sources were posted - Council Minutes, blessings to individual members, writings of excomunicated Mormons, etc.

Any knowledgeable Mormon knows that Council Minutes, Signature Books books, blessings, etc DO NOT constitute LDS doctrine, just as any knowledgeable Mormon knows that regardless of whether they like it or not, women do not have the Priesthood - not according to LDS doctrine.

In a recent press release, the Church said this:

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith."

A fuller discussion of what constitutes doctrine can be found at:

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp...0004e94610aRCRD

and

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What...on_Doctrine.pdf

Interesting - but I wonder???? When someone that is not LDS is about telling LDS what it is that we believe; what is to be gained in explaining to them what it is that we believe.

I think part of the problem is that some people think men and women are equal. In math (my expertise) equal means exactly that = the same, no difference, able to substitute one for the other without changing the truthfulness or value or the outcome. Thus, many that think men and women are equal cannot understand why women do not hold the priesthood. And since they see the priesthood as a symbol of power they feel that everyone that is equal should share the same of it.

Now my friend Snow, I am quite sure you understand that men and women are different and therefore not the same or equal. You also understand that when a man and a woman marry that their marriage is greater than ether or both of them and that they work as partners – together – without one having authority over the other. And I am sure that you know as I do that priesthood is not authority of one person over another – especially for a husband and wife. But it would appear that as much as most of us LDS understand this principle that most non-LDS do not understand this and often resent any LDS that would attempt to set them right.

The Traveler

Okay now you are bringing up another can of worms about equality. That's where I have a problem. Why aren't they equal? Yes we have different responsibilities but are you saying that one gender is superior over another. I beg to differ.

[BenRaines]

I took from what Traveler said the following:

Men and women are not equal. As human beings yes they are but in the roles we have in this life we are not. Not being equal does not mean that one is superior to the other but not the same. We could start with the most basic of functions. Men can not have babies, they do not have the plumbing for it. Women and women can't produce a baby by themselves. Lets not get in to donors or other asexual life forms but human men and women.

I do not believe myself to be a chauvanist but as a police officer I would much rather be with another male police officer in a physical altercation with a suspect than with a 110 lb woman officer. Equal training but not equal strength.

If we are talking constitutional rights then yes men and women are equal and should be treated equally.

I am thankful for the differences that we have. My wife is treated like a queen. She has not had to work outside the home in our 32 years of marriage and feels she has had an equal or better life than I have.

She tells me that for her to be treated as an equal would be a step down in her life.

Ben Raines

[pam]

I read back through it and yes I over reacted. My apologies to Traveler. I misunderstood his meaning. Guess I was ready for a fight when none was there.

[Snow]

Interesting - but I wonder???? When someone that is not LDS is about telling LDS what it is that we believe; what is to be gained in explaining to them what it is that we believe.

Yes - interesting. But to be fair, El wasn't telling us what we believe. She was representing that her knowledge of our doctrine was superior to our own knowledge of our own doctrine.

I think part of the problem is that some people think men and women are equal. In math (my expertise) equal means exactly that = the same, no difference, able to substitute one for the other without changing the truthfulness or value or the outcome. Thus, many that think men and women are equal cannot understand why women do not hold the priesthood. And since they see the priesthood as a symbol of power they feel that everyone that is equal should share the same of it.

Now my friend Snow, I am quite sure you understand that men and women are different and therefore not the same or equal. You also understand that when a man and a woman marry that their marriage is greater than ether or both of them and that they work as partners – together – without one having authority over the other. And I am sure that you know as I do that priesthood is not authority of one person over another – especially for a husband and wife. But it would appear that as much as most of us LDS understand this principle that most non-LDS do not understand this and often resent any LDS that would attempt to set them right.

The Traveler

Absolutely - and well said.

"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile."

... and one need not have the priesthood to be gentle, meek, loving, knowledgeable or guileless.

[Gaia]

With all due respect, i think it's only fair to let those who made their points, speak for themselves, and allow people to see what was actually said, as opposed to interpretations and critiques thereof.

Anyone who wants to actually see what was said may do so by reading post # 1 Here:

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...c=9832&st=0

And post # 56, which was a response to it, HERE:

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=9832&st=45

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Gaia]

Yes - interesting. But to be fair, El wasn't telling us what we believe. She was representing that her knowledge of our doctrine was superior to our own knowledge of our own doctrine.

GAIA:

Hmm, i didn't see Elphaba say anywhere that her "knowledge of LDS doctrine was superior" to anyone else's -- where was that exactly, please?

I think part of the problem is that some people think men and women are equal. In math (my expertise) equal means exactly that = the same, no difference, able to substitute one for the other without changing the truthfulness or value or the outcome. Thus, many that think men and women are equal cannot understand why women do not hold the priesthood. And since they see the priesthood as a symbol of power they feel that everyone that is equal should share the same of it.

GAIA:

I think most reasonable people -- including most Feminists -- would recognize that there are differences between men and women -- that's fairly obvious.

Instead of "sameness", they advocate equality -- that is, equality of opportunity and rights: equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for similar abilities, etc.

And i think it's perfectly reasonable for both members and non to recognize that Priesthood is -- among other things -- institutionalized AUTHORITY and POWER in the Church.

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Snow]

GAIA:

Hmm, i didn't see Elphaba say anywhere that her "knowledge of LDS doctrine was superior" to anyone else's -- where was that exactly, please?

That kind of deliberately obtuse challenge doesn't really work with me Gaia. You'll have to try it on someone else.

The point applies to all who argue that contrary to the overwhelmingly vast majority of LDS members and every single General Authority, their opinions about women and the priesthood are correct.

[CrimsonKairos]

Gaia...why not join the RLDS/Community of Christ? You could probably end up as prophetess and president of their church one day.

As for LDS...not currently. Sorry. Just isn't doctrine.

[sixpacktr]

And i think it's perfectly reasonable for both members and non to recognize that Priesthood is -- among other things -- institutionalized AUTHORITY and POWER in the Church.

Now we see what the burr under your saddle is: you don't know that the PH is, do you? You only see it as something men have dreamed up to have POWER and AUTHORITY in the church.

Man, life must be hard seeing conspiracies where they don't exist.

[Gaia]

Now we see what the burr under your saddle is: you don't know that the PH is, do you? You only see it as something men have dreamed up to have POWER and AUTHORITY in the church.

GAIA:

Look, i can understand why you'd want to beleive / assert that, but please don't make (especially erroneous!) assumptions about what i "see" or don't see.

FYI, I have been privileged and honored to know some wonderfully inspired Priesthood holders who evidenced not only in church callings or ministrations to others, but in their personal lives, the Spirit and Power of God.

~Gaia

[Gaia]

<div class='quotemain'>

GAIA:

Hmm, i didn't see Elphaba say anywhere that her "knowledge of LDS doctrine was superior" to anyone else's -- where was that exactly, please?

That kind of deliberately obtuse challenge doesn't really work with me Gaia. You'll have to try it on someone else.

GAIA:

OK, i'll make this as pointed (un-obtuse) as possible:

With all due respect, Snow --

If you cannot provide the specific quote wherein Elphaba actually SAID that her "knowledge of LDS doctrine was superior" to anyone else's, please stop making accusations that you cannot back up.

~Gaia

[StrawberryFields]

Thank you Snow. I was actually wondering why we were even debating whether women are unhappy or not. To me "who cares?" It's the way it is. (Sorry SF this is NOT directed at you but at comments on the threads.) I've never questioned it one way or the other.

lol Pam,

The only reason why I started that thread is because it was being questioned on another thread. As I stated in my OP (on that thread) I was just wondering if I was alone in it NOT bothering me that I didn't currently hold the PH. :)

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>

Thank you Snow. I was actually wondering why we were even debating whether women are unhappy or not. To me "who cares?" It's the way it is. (Sorry SF this is NOT directed at you but at comments on the threads.) I've never questioned it one way or the other.

lol Pam,

The only reason why I started that thread is because it was being questioned on another thread. As I stated in my OP (on that thread) I was just wondering if I was alone in it NOT bothering me that I didn't currently hold the PH. :)

Whew I'm relieved. I didn't want to offend you.

[CrimsonKairos]

With all due respect, Snow --

If you cannot provide the specific quote wherein Elphaba actually SAID that her "knowledge of LDS doctrine was superior" to anyone else's, please stop making accusations that you cannot back up.

I believe Snow's point, Gaia, was that he's not interested in copying and pasting Elphaba's comments just to appease you. Go read her posts. And remember that there's explicit, and implicit.

[Snow]

OK, i'll make this as pointed (un-obtuse) as possible:

With all due respect, Snow --

If you cannot provide the specific quote wherein Elphaba actually SAID that her "knowledge of LDS doctrine was superior" to anyone else's, please stop making accusations that you cannot back up.

~Gaia

Ahh - still think that I am intimidated by such calls to produce proof?

Sorry - I'm not. I specified that my point did not apply soley to El but to anyone that thinks they understand LDS doctrine better than the faithful LDS. I feel, like, zero need to respond to your challenge - nor the interest to reread the relevant material. I read El's posts and those of others already. I know what they say as do other careful readers.

[Traveler]

"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile."

... and one need not have the priesthood to be gentle, meek, loving, knowledgeable or guileless.

I am very pleased to see this side of you. Thank you

The Traveler

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile."

... and one need not have the priesthood to be gentle, meek, loving, knowledgeable or guileless.

I am very pleased to see this side of you. Thank you

The Traveler

I am a bit kinder and long-suffering in person than on the internet... though the only influence I maintain is through persuasion - such as it is, not by virtue of authority soley.

[Elphaba]

I read El's posts and those of others already. I know what they say as do other careful readers.

No, you did not read my posts regarding women and the priesthood. You have misrepresented them incorrectly every time you've referred to them.

And I have never said, nor do I feel, I have superior knowledge. The problem with my thread is it escalated until it had tentacles into many different directions, and I could not bring it back to the one and only issue I was discussing, which was the Quorum of the Anointed. You, not differentiating between the one subject of my posts, and the many subjects of others, incorrectly attributed other subjects to me, and then claimed I had "written" them. I had not.

I was concerned enough about this I asked the mods to close the thread. I would still like a thread where I could "discuss" the Quroum of the Annointed," without it being turned into a "Women still hold the Priesthood" thread. That is the last thing I wanted to happen, but you seem convinced that I did.

Proof positive you did not actually read MY posts.

Eddited to add for clarification: In my posts I never claimed women still had the Priesthood. That's where the thread got out of control and other people came in, taking it into many different directions.

Numerous times Snow has claimed I did say women still held the Priesthood. I did not. I do not have an opinion on that one way or another, and even said so in that thread. Yet Snow insists he read all of MY posts.

Elphaba

[Snow]

No, you did not read my posts regarding women and the priesthood. You have misrepresented them incorrectly every time you've referred to them.

And I have never said, nor do I feel, I have superior knowledge. The problem with my thread is it escalated until it had tentacles into many different directions, and I could not bring it back to the one and only issue I was discussing, which was the Quorum of the Anointed. You, not differentiating between the one subject of my posts, and the many subjects of others, incorrectly attributed other subjects to me, and then claimed I had "written" them. I had not.

Gee - for someone complaining that someone else is referring to others when talking about her, you'd think that you would take the time to read that I said I was also referring to others, not just you.

What do they call it when you accuse others of the same thing that you do? Does it start with an h?

As for the rest of your sob story... there you go with your everyone-else-is-an-idiot-so-I-can-say-anything-I-want-to theory. Again your the victim of some malicious entity out to get you - surprize.

[Elphaba]

Sorry, I added an edit while you were writing. You may not be done yet.

Elphaba

Not to worry El - you can disagree with me anytime.

I've got to turn in so I catch up tomorrow. Goodnight and shouldn't you go to bed too?

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

Sorry, I added an edit while you were writing. You may not be done yet.

Elphaba

Not to worry El - you can disagree with me anytime.

I've got to turn in so I catch up tomorrow. Goodnight and shouldn't you go to bed too?

Whoops - sorry about that - I've messed up your post. I apologize. I must have hit edit instead of quote but I don't think I can fix it.

See you tomorrow.