God's Justice

[fatima]

What I learned in my earlier thread about Eternal Marriage has brought me to another question.  

Now, I want to say that I am impressed with the LDS church/faith, based on the people that I know that are actually striving to be "good Mormons".  They love God, their church and they all seem to live God oriented, family oriented, hard working lives.  Just the kinds of people that make the world a better place.  Doing all of the ordinances, and living WoW, etc. for love of God vs. fear of God is clearly the best way for any of us to go.  However...on to where things get muddled for me...

In my previous thread it came up that marriage continues through eternity if both spouses, at their own deaths, still will that to be.  It also came up that abortion as a great evil is reconciled because God will give that baby/intelligence another chance at life in a human body.

My concern/question is-there seems to be no reason for urgency to accept the Gospel in this life.  There is a safety net for all of our decisions where we get to 'sign up later', even non-Mormons getting a chance to accept the LDS faith after death.  While that may sound lovely, and very merciful of God, it seems to lack any sense of justice.  Please forgive the political parallel, but it sounds like one of the oft mentioned issues with Obamacare-that people will ignore healthcare until they need it, or the other cultural topic-that everyone gets a prize.

 

Somewhere along the line in my life, someone wiser than me (C.S. Lewis, maybe?) pointed out that without justice, there is no mercy.  

Am I misunderstanding something?

[Anddenex]

In the Book of Mormon there is a wonderful explanation between mercy and justice and how mercy can not rob justice and justice can not rob mercy. They are opposites and one without the other can not exist. We know mercy because we know justice, and we know justice because we know mercy; otherwise, all things would be one body or a compound in one.

In the first scenario, the opposite to your question (implied, not mentioned) is that there would be no mercy, "[pointing] out that without [mercy], there is no [justice]." If people are not given an opportunity to learn, be taught, in the next life (especially those who never had an opportunity to even hear the name "Jesus") then God would not be a God of mercy, only justice.

The healthcare analogy falls a little short because people are aware of healthcare, and openly choose to ignore it. This is what scriptures refer to "do not procrastinate the day of your repentance." A person who "knows" of the gospel here, and openly rejects it, will carry with them the same mind frame, the same intelligence, in the next life. When they are taught, the chances are they will reject it there as well. Justice will receive its accounting, as will mercy. There are plenty of scriptures in the Old & New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price emphasizing knowing of, rejecting knowledge, will not help in the next life.

The prodigal son is an interesting example of mercy and justice and which is open (and disagreed upon) regarding the difference between the prodigal who returns and the son who remained faithful to his father and his father's work. As for my, I find the distinction between what the Father gives the prodigal and the words to the well-meaning son who had followed and did not waste his days of probation, "And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." The Father gives one a fatted calf while distinguishing the fatted calf between "all that I have is thine."

Overall, we are in the hands of a perfect God, a perfect Father, who will extend mercy as far as mercy can extend without robbing justice. The notion that people will have a full measure of knowledge and accounting before judgment is actually perfectly merciful and perfectly just. How great is the wisdom of our God, and how wonderful his plan truly is. All will have a fair opportunity to reject or to accept, this life or the next. Amazing!

[Jane_Doe]

Well, @Anddenex hit a scriptural home run here, that I can by no means reprise.  So I'll just speak practically: being a disciple of Christ bring peace and happiness, not only in the next life, but in this one too.  Learning of the Gospel today brings joy today.  If I have something that would make my loved one over joyous happy, should I not share it with them?  Or at least offer it to them?  If I am hurting, today Christ is already opening His arms to comfort me.  Today I can receive His comfort- there's no reason to wait around miserable until tomorrow.

[Sunday21]

Agree with previous posts. I you do not join the church, then you can have the chance to do so in the next life. If you are not baptized and confirmed hen you miss the opportunity to have the Holy Ghost as your constant companion. I know that others do not necessarily feel this way but in part I was drawn to the lds church because:

i did not want to disappoint Heavenly Father.

I wanted to read the scriptures and work out what was going on. How does the world work?

i recognized the doctrine as being correct at a below conscious level. It made sense to me. 

[fatima]

So...is the LDS Gospel only offered in the next life to those who hadn't had a chance to hear it in this life?  Or also to those who heard it but didn't accept it in this life?  I can see why it would be considered merciful for those who never heard of Jesus Christ.  But, for someone like me...I've heard what the LDS church teaches about God, Jesus Christ, salvation, etc., but I don't believe it is the Fullness of Truth (while still having much good).  IOW-I have rejected it.  So I do not get another chance in the next life? (which I think is just).

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, fatima said:

So...is the LDS Gospel only offered in the next life to those who hadn't had a chance to hear it in this life?  Or also to those who heard it but didn't accept it in this life?  I can see why it would be considered merciful for those who never heard of Jesus Christ.  But, for someone like me...I've heard what the LDS church teaches about God, Jesus Christ, salvation, etc., but I don't believe it is the Fullness of Truth (while still having much good).  IOW-I have rejected it.  So I do not get another chance in the next life? (which I think is just).

(My personal thoughts on the matter, may or may not be doctrine)

People don't usually change.  Particularly as the get older.  A person who knowingly rejected the Gospel for the last 50 years is probably going to reject it for the next 50.  That's just how people are.  

[estradling75]

To reinforce @Anddenex's post with scripture.  I present Alma 41 a clear explaining of Justice Mercy and the afterlife resurrection.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/41

1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee.

2 I say unto thee, my son, that the plan of restoration is requisite with the justice of God; for it is requisite that all things should be restored to their proper order. Behold, it is requisite and just, according to the power and resurrection of Christ, that the soul of man should be restored to its body, and that every part of the body should be restored to itself.

3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh.

6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

7 These are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or do evil.

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

9 And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

15 For that which ye do send out shall return unto you again, and be restored; therefore, the word restoration more fully condemneth the sinner, and justifieth him not at all.

 

3 minutes ago, fatima said:

So...is the LDS Gospel only offered in the next life to those who hadn't had a chance to hear it in this life?  Or also to those who heard it but didn't accept it in this life?  I can see why it would be considered merciful for those who never heard of Jesus Christ.  But, for someone like me...I've heard what the LDS church teaches about God, Jesus Christ, salvation, etc., but I don't believe it is the Fullness of Truth (while still having much good).  IOW-I have rejected it.  So I do not get another chance in the next life? (which I think is just).

You may or you might not have the Gospel offered you in the next life but you will still be you...  All your justifications for not joining, all your rationalizations for going your own way will still influence you.  If you had a full knowledge of it here and rejected it you still will.  However your actions were based on incomplete knowledge that will be corrected and your actions will then be what you would have done based on the kind of person you were/are. 

So mortally is the time to define what kind of person we are.  If you are the kind of person who embraces all divine truth and follows it... then how much you manged to acquire in mortally is not really relevant.  However if that is your true nature then you should acquire as much as God made available to you.

[Anddenex]

52 minutes ago, fatima said:

So...is the LDS Gospel only offered in the next life to those who hadn't had a chance to hear it in this life?  Or also to those who heard it but didn't accept it in this life?  I can see why it would be considered merciful for those who never heard of Jesus Christ.  But, for someone like me...I've heard what the LDS church teaches about God, Jesus Christ, salvation, etc., but I don't believe it is the Fullness of Truth (while still having much good).  IOW-I have rejected it.  So I do not get another chance in the next life? (which I think is just).

The gospel of Jesus Christ will be offered to everyone who is not a member of the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life -- possibly excluding sons of perdition (as I don't know of anything revealed pertaining to their state). I am the son of two converts to the gospel of Jesus Christ. When my grandmother passed away, my mother performed her work in the temple. I am sure my Grandmother was taught the gospel and saw the proxy work performed. She then would have had the opportunity to accept or reject the work being done. I find it intriguing that you think this would rob justice. I love my "Pa", she was such a wonderful person and even today I thank my Heavenly Father for knowing her, and with a special plea asking if he would tell her I said "hello, and that I miss her." This to me concretes in my mind that God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful. As I previously shared, " All will have a fair opportunity to reject or to accept [the gospel], this life or the next." Amazing!

You like my "Pa" will have your opportunity to accept or reject the gospel in this life and/or the next life allowing a person to fully have every opportunity possible to accept the greatest of all God's gifts -- eternal life! As for me, if you did not receive such, it would be unjust, as in the next life you will not be inhibited by the philosophies of men mingled with scripture, and you will have the opportunity to accept or reject the message and work being done for you (if not accepted in this life).

[Sunday21]

There was an Ensign article in which a general authority (GA) of the church remembered his missionary days. As a young missionary, he was ringing on doorbells with his companion. As sometimes happens, people did not answer the door although they were at home. The companion yelled through the letterbox of one such home 'We are from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints'. The companion explained that he wanted the householders to be accountable for rejecting the gospel message.

The GA explained how mistaken his companion was. In the next life, all will be taught the gospel. They will have a thorough opportunity to really understand the gospel and the import. A nodding acquaintance with the gospel does not make you responsible for rejecting it.

The lds faith is not a punitive approach to the gospel. Heavely Father is a loving God who cares deeply about all of us.

There is a book that describes God weeping when he loses his children. I think it is called something like A God who Weeps. This book reflects the kind and loving nature of the lds view of God.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Sunday21

[Sunday21]

If I could just put in a plug...

Why would anyone want to be a Mormon in this life when you can join up in the next life with few penalties?

1) in this life, it is very comforting to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Many have had insights through the Holy Ghost from time to time. The Holy Ghost can warn of danger to yourself and to your children. How wonderful would it be to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost with you always? The Holy Ghost makes us much better people. A slight frown from Him, can be felt. HAving this influence in your life, changes you. It changes your values and your perspective. The companionship of the Holy Ghost provides you with insights into your work, correct choices, how to deal with difficult personal issues, and your path in life.

2) Don't you want to know what's going on? You can talk to God and God can talk to you! This is the ultimate in humbling and the most mind expanding life experience, that you can have. I am sure that you have felt the spirit during church services. The master of the universe wants to talk to you. What is that worth? We have incredible scriptural resources with insights that will change how you see the world. The scriptures are fascinating. We have a book full of insights for the present day. We have many books of scripture with new insights for your life.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Sunday21

[JohnsonJones]

This is a deeper subject than is easily discussed on a forum.  Trying to collate my thoughts in that regard.  I wrote a lot, but now editing it down to a smaller chunk that might be understood easier.

In this life, we are too selfish.  We want to know what is in it for us.  Imagine, instead, a life where we LOVE EVERYONE.  We want what is best for everyone we meet or know.  We love them as much as we love ourselves.  In that scenario, why would we want to exclude anyone from attaining the same reward as we have.  In fact, we would wish everyone could have the same reward as we attain.  In that light, whether we can get our friends and family to join us in this life, or the next, we will want them to be with us through the eternities.

That said, there are natural ramifications for what we do in this life and the next.  For starters, as some have stated, there will be those that will not accept the gospel regardless of this life or the next. 

However, I think our concern is for ourselves, it is each of us that is striving for our own salvation .  We need to worry about where we are at, for we cannot control what another person chooses in this regard.  We can only LOVE all men and hope that they all can receive salvation in the life to come, if possible, and that if not, they receive as great a reward as possible for the good things they choose in this life.

The long and short of it though, is I don't know.  I'm not positive in who goes where at the end.  All I know is that for each of us, we need to strive to do the best and be the best that we can possibly be.  I do not think that anyone that earnestly and fervently desires to choose the right and seeks after a reward will be denied access to that reward.  That any who see a righteous reward and seek after it with all their heart and might, that it will be granted that reward and glory in the heavens hereafter.

Edited May 19, 2017 by JohnsonJones
More focus

[Traveler]

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is a deeper subject than is easily discussed on a forum.  Trying to collate my thoughts in that regard.  I wrote a lot, but now editing it down to a smaller chunk that might be understood easier.

In this life, we are too selfish.  We want to know what is in it for us.  Imagine, instead, a life where we LOVE EVERYONE.  We want what is best for everyone we meet or know.  We love them as much as we love ourselves.  In that scenario, why would we want to exclude anyone from attaining the same reward as we have.  In fact, we would wish everyone could have the same reward as we attain.  In that light, whether we can get our friends and family to join us in this life, or the next, we will want them to be with us through the eternities.

That said, there are natural ramifications for what we do in this life and the next.  For starters, as some have stated, there will be those that will not accept the gospel regardless of this life or the next. 

However, I think our concern is for ourselves, it is each of us that is striving for our own salvation .  We need to worry about where we are at, for we cannot control what another person chooses in this regard.  We can only LOVE all men and hope that they all can receive salvation in the life to come, if possible, and that if not, they receive as great a reward as possible for the good things they choose in this life.

The long and short of it though, is I don't know.  I'm not positive in who goes where at the end.  All I know is that for each of us, we need to strive to do the best and be the best that we can possibly be.  I do not think that anyone that earnestly and fervently desires to choose the right and seeks after a reward will be denied access to that reward.  That any who see a righteous reward and seek after it with all their heart and might, that it will be granted that reward and glory in the heavens hereafter.

 

I believe you are spot on in you thinking but I would add some things if I may – of if you will allow.

1. I think and believe that we will all end up where and being what we have spent countless eons preparing ourselves for.  I do not believe anyone will ever accomplish anything worthwhile that does not demand effort and preparation.   I also do not believe effort and preparations are ever made easier by procrastinating our resolve to do them – so far, all the experiences I can remember; such things become more difficult once we engage in procrastinating.

2. I do not see any reason why someone would change their basic nature (core motivating elements of who they are) just because it might be easier at some later time.  I believe this is a false narrative and belief and is very related to #1.

3. Everything else aside – I believe G-d is merciful and will help us obtain what we actually desire most.  I do not believe the judgment is about G-d forcing or convincing us as much as it is convincing ourselves.

4. I believe that the mercy of G-d is that once we understand the inevitable results of justice that G-d takes a hit upon himself to allow us a do-over if we really desire and as long as we wish to try again.  I also believe that the mercy of G-d extends to others – to set them free from the damage that we cause; regardless of whatever we determine to become.

 

The Traveler

[fatima]

22 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

If I could just put in a plug...

Why would anyone want to be a Mormon in this life when you can join up in the next life with few penalties?

1) in this life, it is very comforting to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Many have had insights through the Holy Ghost from time to time. The Holy Ghost can warn of danger to yourself and to your children. How wonderful would it be to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost with you always? The Holy Ghost makes us much better people. A slight frown from Him, can be felt. HAving this influence in your life, changes you. It changes your values and your perspective. The companionship of the Holy Ghost provides you with insights into your work, correct choices, how to deal with difficult personal issues, and your path in life.

2) Don't you want to know what's going on? You can talk to God and God can talk to you! This is the ultimate in humbling and the most mind expanding life experience, that you can have. I am sure that you have felt the spirit during church services. The master of the universe wants to talk to you. What is that worth? We have incredible scriptural resources with insights that will change how you see the world. The scriptures are fascinating. We have a book full of insights for the present day. We have many books of scripture with new insights for your life.

 

 

Well, speaking for myself, I am 100% Catholic and can say with surety that the Holy Ghost guides me all the days of my life.  I am in constant prayer and constant repentance for my sins.  I love, love, love God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost for creating, forgiving, redeeming and sustaining me.

Having been born and raised Catholic, I dove deeply into the teachings, history and theology of the Catholic Church when I had my first child, because all-of-a-sudden, it really, really mattered what Truth was.  I also looked into other Christian faiths, including LDS, and came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church had the fullness of Truth.

So...returning to the topic at hand, I am pretty sure I know more than the average person about LDS theology, and I do not believe it to be true, based on the nature of God and the purpose of our lives.  With that 'rejection', will I still have another chance?  Because I totally desire to know, love and serve God?

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, fatima said:

 

So...returning to the topic at hand, I am pretty sure I know more than the average person about LDS theology, and I do not believe it to be true, based on the nature of God and the purpose of our lives.  With that 'rejection', will I still have another chance?  Because I totally desire to know, love and serve God?

No one here can answer that question because no one here can know your heart.

If the nature of God is as the Mormon's describe him then you are worshiping an idol.  (And granted the reverse is also true).

Could you be convinced that God had a different nature then you suppose and if so what would that take?  (Don't answer that here... ponder it)  That is the answer to if you have another chance or not.

If you are locked down then you are locked down...  If you are not then you are not

[Anddenex]

36 minutes ago, fatima said:

So...returning to the topic at hand, I am pretty sure I know more than the average person about LDS theology, and I do not believe it to be true, based on the nature of God and the purpose of our lives.  With that 'rejection', will I still have another chance?  Because I totally desire to know, love and serve God?

Yes, as previously answered in my other post. All people who have lived will have the opportunity to accept/reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not become a member in this life, your temple work will be performed by proxy and you (like my "Pa") will have the opportunity to receive/reject the work performed.

You will be taught beyond the veil, and you will either receive or reject. Truth, God knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts. God knows who has fully rejected the gospel and those who have not. If people have received witness and rejected the Spirit of truth, the chances are they will reject the gospel in the next -- I don't know -- God knows.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Anddenex