Poll on The Plan of Salvation/ Kingdom of Heaven

[CV75]

On 6/1/2017 at 0:07 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Im curious as to taking a poll on how confortable everyone is with the teachings regarding our unique plan of salvation.

Check out the October 2017 Preview Article (also in the Gospel Library app) on D&C 76, here: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/10/the-triumph-and-glory-of-the-lamb-doctrine-and-covenants-76-in-its-historical-context?lang=eng

This is in addition to the Revelations in Context article of the same subject: https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-in-context-the-vision?lang=eng

Edited June 2, 2017 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Check out the October 2017 Preview Article (also in the Gospel Library app) on D&C 76, here: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/10/the-triumph-and-glory-of-the-lamb-doctrine-and-covenants-76-in-its-historical-context?lang=eng

This is in addition to the Revelations in Context article of the same subject: https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-revelations-in-context-the-vision?lang=eng

Its interesting that the first link speaks of section 19 as a frontrunner for section 76. Okay, but I think too many take section 19 out of context. Section 19 speaks of the suffering that will come to sons of perdition in the second death. Those are all the unrepentant. So, if it truly is a frontrunner to 76 then one thing must be made clear-

Section 19 speaks of the strict dichotmy between those on the right hand and those on the left. Those on the left are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. It is only these that must suffer like Christ. The repentant are those who are on the right hand and have accepted Christ and his gospel unto the cleansing of their souls. They all go on unto eternal life. Section 76 must be taken in understanding under this premise.

Both articles speak of universalism. But its confusing because on the one hand we have the Book of Mormon that teaches the strict orthodox heaven or hell, saved or damned dichotomy, then you have this new doctrine as interpreted from section 76 teaching almost the opposite.

Whether we want to believe it or not, our own core teachings found in the Book of Mormon is the same Protestant heaven or hell doctrine that was sweeping the countryside in Joseph Smiths day. Though some may say we are somewhat universalist, the Book of Mormon is on the oppisite end of universalism. Its contents speak of a very defined line between the righteous and the wicked.

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:10 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Its interesting that the first link speaks of section 19 as a frontrunner for section 76. Okay, but I think too many take section 19 out of context. Section 19 speaks of the suffering that will come to sons of perdition in the second death. Those are all the unrepentant. So, if it truly is a frontrunner to 76 then one thing must be made clear-

Section 19 speaks of the strict dichotmy between those on the right hand and those on the left. Those on the left are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. It is only these that must suffer like Christ. The repentant are those who are on the right hand and have accepted Christ and his gospel unto the cleansing of their souls. They all go on unto eternal life. Section 76 must be taken in understanding under this premise.

Both articles speak of universalism. But its confusing because on the one hand we have the Book of Mormon that teaches the strict orthodox heaven or hell, saved or damned dichotomy, then you have this new doctrine as interpreted from section 76 teaching almost the opposite.

Whether we want to believe it or not, our own core teachings found in the Book of Mormon is the same Protestant heaven or hell doctrine that was sweeping the countryside in Joseph Smiths day. Though some may say we are somewhat universalist, the Book of Mormon is on the oppisite end of universalism. Its contents speak of a very defined line between the righteous and the wicked.

 

The concept of an afterlife of bliss in heaven or damnation in hell (death) is a very old and ancient Pagan belief with roots in Baal worship that have beginnings in Babel (as in Nimrod and the tower following the flood of Noah).  This was in part of a great ideological plague of the ancient pre-historic Old Testament. This concept was also a prevalent problem during the era of the first century Apostolic Church as introduced by the Greek Herodian’s.

 Initially, early Pagans believed that at death each human soul was greeted by the pagan G-d Mot that held in his hand a scale.  The good deeds of the soul were placed on the right side of the scale and the evil deeds on the left (the right and left sides have symbolic reference we also see in Christianity as taught by Jesus).   If the scale tipped to the right – the soul was rewarded with bliss – if to the left the soul was damned to misery.   It may be of slight interest to note that according to the myth of Baal –  a demigod (son of El and a virgin human female) that fought with Mot and Yaman to deliver the repentant from hell that would believe and follow him

In modern LDS or Mormon theology there really is still just one heaven and a separate place called hell (not a kingdom of glory) – which is also called outer darkness (meaning without the light of truth).  Heaven is a Kingdom of glory that is presided over and governed by G-d the Father who is the supreme Suzerain of that kingdom of heavenly or divine glory.  Additional revelation has indicated that the Kingdom of G-d is divided into different providences, states or stations (we LDS call degrees) of glory. 

Some religious theologians appear to me to have an inadequate grasp of our English language and western history and how the Great Apostasy effected Christianity (including the Christians of the era of Joseph Smith’s boyhood).  This misunderstanding of languages, translations and interpretations are also a root cause of a lot of confusion among Traditional thinking Christians concerning the Divine Plan of Salvation in that they are unable to understand different degrees of glory within the Kingdom of G-d.  The Book of Mormon is not contrary or misleading to those Saints acquainted with the Gift of the Holy Ghost that gives light to divine symbolism (see the entire chapter of Moroni 10) – but others can easily be misled by “strange” spirits that teach doubt of divine things.   Thinking them to be of little difference with certain Protestant distractions to revelation.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

38 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

The concept of an afterlife of bliss in heaven or damnation in hell (death) is a very old and ancient Pagan belief with roots in Baal worship that have beginnings in Babel (as in Nimrod and the tower following the flood of Noah).  This was in part of a great ideological plague of the ancient pre-historic Old Testament. This concept was also a prevalent problem during the era of the first century Apostolic Church as introduced by the Greek Herodian’s.

 Initially, early Pagans believed that at death each human soul was greeted by the pagan G-d Mot that held in his hand a scale.  The good deeds of the soul were placed on the right side of the scale and the evil deeds on the left (the right and left sides have symbolic reference we also see in Christianity as taught by Jesus).   If the scale tipped to the right – the soul was rewarded with bliss – if to the left the soul was damned to misery.   It may be of slight interest to note that according to the myth of Baal –  a demigod (son of El and a virgin human female) that fought with Mot and Yaman to deliver the repentant from hell that would believe and follow him

In modern LDS or Mormon theology there really is still just one heaven and a separate place called hell (not a kingdom of glory) – which is also called outer darkness (meaning without the light of truth).  Heaven is a Kingdom of glory that is presided over and governed by G-d the Father who is the supreme Suzerain of that kingdom of heavenly or divine glory.  Additional revelation has indicated that the Kingdom of G-d is divided into different providences, states or stations (we LDS call degrees) of glory. 

Some religious theologians appear to me to have an inadequate grasp of our English language and western history and how the Great Apostasy effected Christianity (including the Christians of the era of Joseph Smith’s boyhood).  This misunderstanding of languages, translations and interpretations are also a root cause of a lot of confusion among Traditional thinking Christians concerning the Divine Plan of Salvation in that they are unable to understand different degrees of glory within the Kingdom of G-d.  The Book of Mormon is not contrary or misleading to those Saints acquainted with the Gift of the Holy Ghost that gives light to divine symbolism (see the entire chapter of Moroni 10) – but others can easily be misled by “strange” spirits that teach doubt of divine things.   Thinking them to be of little difference with certain Protestant distractions to revelation.

 

The Traveler

I dont care how one trys to square it up, the teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding the plan of salvation and the latter day interpretations of section 76 including the remade model of salvation from it are in disagreement with each other. Call it what one may, the Book of Mormon teachings are more protestant in its view than what we have now from the manuals.

[The Folk Prophet]

17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont care how one trys to square it up, the teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding the plan of salvation and the latter day interpretations of section 76 including the remade model of salvation from it are in disagreement with each other. Call it what one may, the Book of Mormon teachings are more protestant in its view than what we have now from the manuals.

According to the church of Rob Osborn.

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I dont care how one trys to square it up, the teachings of the Book of Mormon regarding the plan of salvation and the latter day interpretations of section 76 including the remade model of salvation from it are in disagreement with each other. Call it what one may, the Book of Mormon teachings are more protestant in its view than what we have now from the manuals.

 

I am sorry you do not care – because I believe this is a topic or critical importance.  Your response is a very definite and BIG “Red Flag” to me that says: “Do not think about making any reference to truth or facts – my mind is made up (closed).  Any attempts at a discussion will not be entertained”.   Never-the-less, thanks for reading my post.  I honestly thought you would be open to a discussion.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

I am sorry you do not care – because I believe this is a topic or critical importance.  Your response is a very definite and BIG “Red Flag” to me that says: “Do not think about making any reference to truth or facts – my mind is made up (closed).  Any attempts at a discussion will not be entertained”.   Never-the-less, thanks for reading my post.  I honestly thought you would be open to a discussion.

 

The Traveler

The finer point I guess is the interpretation part of the three degrees of glory. Under our current doctrinal construct you have people getting saved in the end that, according to Christs teachings in the Book of Mormon, cant possibly be saved. It creates a conflict. I think this stems from our latter day construct of the plan of salvation that has certain problems that need resolved.