Grace And Works - What's The Relationship?

[Gaia]

Hi Everyone --

I thought it might be agood idea to come back to some basic, essential Gospel principles --

Anyone want to start a discussion on the relationship between Grace and Works, in LDS thought?

Blessings --

~Gaia

[MadHatter]

[Doctor Steuss]

Grace is the foundation, faith is the walls and works are the roof. Without grace, the whole structrure tumbles. Without faith, the roof cannot stand. Without works, there is nothing to prevent the rain from getting in.

[edited for typo]

[Adomini22]

It is through grace we are saved- AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.

[Doctor Steuss]

Mosiah 2

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

2 Nephi 10

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved

[Gaia]

Grace is the foundation, faith is the walls and works are the roof. Without grace, the whole structrure tumbles. Without faith, the roof cannot stand. Without works, there is nothing to prevent the rain from getting in.

[edited for typo]

GAIA:

That's really very good, Doctor -- May i ask, did you come up with it, or is it a quote from someone?

[Doctor Steuss]

<div class='quotemain'>

Grace is the foundation, faith is the walls and works are the roof. Without grace, the whole structrure tumbles. Without faith, the roof cannot stand. Without works, there is nothing to prevent the rain from getting in.

[edited for typo]

GAIA:

That's really very good, Doctor -- May i ask, did you come up with it, or is it a quote from someone?

Just a little something that came to me when reading Ephesians (namely chapter 2) a while back. I wouldn't be surprised though if there was someone else out there who has picked up on the "united consciousness" and has proposed a similar analogy.

[prisonchaplain]

The relationship between grace & works...they are competitors, right? No? If not, so much of the discussion surrounding these positives is skewed, imho.

[Gaia]

Just a little something that came to me when reading Ephesians (namely chapter 2) a while back. I wouldn't be surprised though if there was someone else out there who has picked up on the "united consciousness" and has proposed a similar analogy.

GAIA:

It's really good -- May i have your permission to quote you in the future, with it?

[Doctor Steuss]

<div class='quotemain'>

Just a little something that came to me when reading Ephesians (namely chapter 2) a while back. I wouldn't be surprised though if there was someone else out there who has picked up on the "united consciousness" and has proposed a similar analogy.

GAIA:

It's really good -- May i have your permission to quote you in the future, with it?

You are certainly welcome to.

[a-train]

Exactly PC. Faith and works are not in the boxing ring.

-a-train

[Gaia]

The relationship between grace & works...they are competitors, right? No? If not, so much of the discussion surrounding these positives is skewed, imho.

GAIA:

Not necessarily --

I think in LDS thought at least, it's more accurate to say that they are companions - works come as a RESULT of the Grace of God working in one's life to effect the "rebirth of the Spirit", which then brings forth "works" as a manifestation of that Spirit (of God and of Rebirth) working in/on us ....

Here are two good quotes:

FRom "Building Faith With the Book of Mormon" by Reed Bankhead and Glenn Pearson:

"Some Church members, after the days of Joseph Smith have gone so far as to deny that we are saved by grace at all. Rather, they have taught, we are saved by our works. They have gone even further: they have quoted Paul’s statement in Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of words lest any man should boast," and have said that this salvation refers to the resurrection only.

We know that is incorrect for two reasons:

(1) Paul stated that this salvation he was talking about came through faith; and faith is not required for a resurrection. (2) Nephi taught exactly the same thing in 2 Ne. 25:23.

President David O. McKay, referring to Eph. 2:8, said "That statement is absolutely true." (CR, April 1957, p. 7.) But he also taught the necessity of works and ordinances along with faith and grace.

The key to understanding this statement of Paul’s is in the tenth verse: "for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It is the rebirth which creates a creature who has good works. It is not the good works of the creature which creates the rebirth.

The confusion can be laid to rest if we always remember that our good works do not pay the demands of justice for our evil deeds. Only Christ can do this.

From "Are Mormons Christians" by Stephen Robinson:

"Fourth, we are saved by grace and condemned without it, no matter what else we might have or do.

Grace is a sine qua non, an essential condition, for salvation. Nephi, son of Lehi, testifies, "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Ne. 25:23).

...Our comparative righteousness is secondary in importance to our humbling ourselves, admitting our weaknesses, striving to live the gospel, and having faith in our Savior.

In fact the final plea of the prophet Moroni in the last chapter of the Book of Mormon is: Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moro. 10:32-33.)

I hope that helps clarify --

Blessings --

~Gaia

[prisonchaplain]

Gaia...let me see if it does. I'll give you my nutshell version:

Grace ----> SALVATION --------> Works

You don't work to get saved, but since salvation produces works, if you don't ever do them, how can you so confidently proclaim that you've got salvation?

How's my hearing?

[BenRaines]

Wow PC, you had better watch it or you may lose the idea that we are "Saved by Grace alone".

teasing.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

Wow PC, you had better watch it or you may lose the idea that we are "Saved by Grace alone".

teasing.

Ben Raines

I often ask our chapel, "Are we so afraid that people will think we believe in works-salvation that we fail to do good works for years after our supposed conversion?"

[Moksha]

It is through grace we are saved- AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.

I read it as "It is through Grace we are save, regardless of all we can do". That is not to say that the doing of good works are unimportant - after all they were requested of us, but in the end it is God who has the final say.

[MadHatter]

We are saved by grace, after we have done everything we can do.

This is Jsutice, and Mercy, you have to satisfy the means of justice before mercy can be of any use.

[Traveler]

The opportunity to live with G-d is available to all through grace.

However, only those prepared to live with G-d will find it enjoyable, desireable and worthwhile. Being prepared is a product of practice. Practice is engaged and initiated through faith. In other words, what we practice because of faith is what we do when we do not have to or when there is no compelling reason to.

The Traveler