We have made mistakes

[Sunday21]

Dear @Mormonheart,

If I am correct, you have found an instance of history in which church members behaved badly? 

There have been times when church members even those in high positions have not behaved well. And there have been times in my various callings where I have not behaved as I should. Happy to tell you a story or two if you are interested!

Does this mean that the church is not true? I do not think so. We are human and we make mistakes. Even those with a lot of experience in serving still make mistakes. This is part of the experience of being human.

Does this mean that we need to follow the lds faith like sheep without question? No!

You can pray and take your question to God. Why not schedule a time with few distractions, read the Book of Mormon and pray. Tell God the whole sad story. Listen to what the Holy Ghost tells you.

We have made mistakes. I personally have made mistakes. Forgive us and help us to be better. We are incomplete without you. Why leave us if you can help us improve?

[Snigmorder]

Do you have any context for this? What was his issue? 

Also, it seems Mormonheart has been banned.

[Sunday21]

9 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Do you have any context for this? What was his issue? 

Also, it seems Mormonheart has been banned.

Hi Thanks for letting me know this person was banned. He/she found that the church was not supportive of someone in Germany during WWII. It is a complicated story. The thread is called the Helmuth Hübener case.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Sunday21

[Guest]

Here is how I heard the story:

1.  The Church in Germany was not well established before WWII and everyone was kind of new at Mormonism at that point.

2.  The Church in Germany lost contact with the prophet and apostles when Germany cut contact with America before the war began.

3.  The isolated, cut off local leadership, which wasn't well grounded in Mormonism to begin with, basically drifted into some apostasy and became influenced by some Nazi ideas, and wound up excommunicating Huebner (which probably would have been opposed or appealed had local leadership had proper oversight, which is how the Church works in normal circumstances).

So this is all can be a lesson in why having a prophet and apostles is important, and how easily apostasy can happen when communications between a church and a prophet are cut (as happened in the primitive Church and apparently happened to Huebner''s branch frightfully quickly after losing contact).

But please don't blame the Church for what happened to Huebner.  The actual Church itself had nothing to do with it.  What happened was the doings of a small local branch that was cut off from the Church due to the war and effectively apostasized to some extent.  Huebner's partners, who were also Mormon and also sent to prison for opposing the Nazis just like Huebner, sure did not blame the Church, and I know one of them moved to Utah after the war and eventually wrote a book about his experiences which also praised the Church as being true and its positive influence throughout his life.

Anyhow, that is my understanding of what happened based on reading about it years ago.

Edited July 15, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[Snigmorder]

A Nazi branch president excommunicating a Nazi dissenter in Nazi Germany has nothing to do with the church. Applying blame to the church isn't even a stretch, there's simply nothing there.

It's as if Mormonheart was poised at the door looking for an excuse.

[Guest]

Helmuth Hubener was excommunicated but after the war in 1946 his membership was reinstated and his work has also been done in the temple. Hebener had two friends, Karl-Heinz Schnibbe and Rudi (Rudolf) Wobbe. Both moved to Utah in the 1950's, remained faithful members of the church and both wrote books about their experience. I was able to hear Schnibbe speak and tell his story at a youth gathering once. It was incredible to hear his story. I was 15 at the time and wanted to learn all about these brave three young men. Immediately after I borrowed the book my grandma had on her shelf (Schnibbe's book). And later Rudi's. 

I wish that Mormonheart could have heard his story because perhaps it would have giving her some understanding. After hearing him speak I felt I had an even greater testimony of the gospel. Horrible things happened because of the Nazi's and unfortunately it did effect the saints in Germany. Some things were done to protect the other saints in the branch (excommunicating Huberner, and distancing the the branch from the three young men and their cause).Above all Heavenly Father has a greater plan. For example even thought the Nazi's didn't like the church, having a Branch President who was a Nazi supporter, gave them less of a reason to be alarmed of the church, or at least that branch and they weren't completely closed down. 

Schnibbe gave these examples and other to show why things happened the way they happened. Of course he had a better way of saying it than I do. I suggest anyone interested to read his book and listen to the interviews he gave afterwards. He gives us a better understanding of things and why things were done the way they were done.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, miav said:

I wish that Mormonheart could have heard his story because perhaps it would have giving her some understanding. 

I think most fail to understand why people like her leave the Church.  It isn't because of some anti-Mormon stuff they heard.  They have already chosen to commit sins of some severity.  If, in their minds they cannot continue membership and still follow their chosen path, they LOOK FOR AN EXCUSE.  The anti-Mormon stuff gives them their excuse.

It isn't that there is any truth or not.  It isn't about hearing the whole story out.  It isn't about seeking understanding.  It's just an excuse.  That's all.

Once they've gotten to that stage where sin is more important than faith.  When that happens, truth and facts go out the window.  It's all about rhetoric and pre-conceived notions and honestly about outright lying to themselves.

There really was nothing anyone could have said or done for her.  She had already chosen the path of sin.  There was no talking her out of it.

I wonder which category of seeds that puts her in.

[Sunday21]

@Carborendum. I think that sometimes people leave the church because they have sinned. But sometimes especially in low density areas, demands are high. Most utahites who move here, leave as quickly as possible. We have one utahite who has not left. She is a friend of mine. If there was any chance of a job in her field elsewhere, she would be gone. The pace of Mormonism here can be brutal. After retirement I will be working full time for the church. Some cannot hack the pace here. We have a ratio of 5:1 inactive here. It takes a lot to service the inactives here. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@Carborendum. I think that sometimes people leave the church because they have sinned. But sometimes especially in low density areas, demands are high. Most utahites who move here, leave as quickly as possible. We have one utahite who has not left. She is a friend of mine. If there was any chance of a job in her field elsewhere, she would be gone. The pace of Mormonism here can be brutal. After retirement I will be working full time for the church. Some cannot hack the pace here. We have a ratio of 5:1 inactive here. It takes a lot to service the inactives here. 

I thought that placing the words "PEOPLE LIKE HER" in bold was enough to not require such a response.  And I even pointed to the parable of the seeds at the end. Why did you feel it necessary to try to correct something that didn't need correcting?

[Sunday21]

We don't know that this woman has sinned. She may be leaving because she is repelled by a brutal story. Let's be kind.

Some people can't handle the juggling of callings, jobs and social life.

I am on Facebook with local people who have left the church. Many are happy souls who like to go to concerts and see their grandchildren. Where I live having a normal existence, seeing your friends, having a hobby, visiting the grandkids is tough to balance with being an active lds person.

I visit teach a lady who is 73 with serious health problems. She has a walker. Her visiting teaching load is 5 people.

I visit teach another lady who is a single mom with 3 kids, one with special needs. She is our Sunday school teacher, works in the temple, 2 nights a week in the family history centre and another Relief society calling. She is exhausted. No wonder.

We don't know the strains that other people are trying to carry. Life in some parts of the world is tough for lds people.

i wonder how they manage in Japan. A land of long hours and six day work weeks? 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

We don't know that this woman has sinned. She may be leaving because she is repelled by a brutal story. Let's be kind.

Some people can't handle the juggling of callings, jobs and social life.

I am on Facebook with local people who have left the church. Many are happy souls who like to go to concerts and see their grandchildren. Where I live having a normal existence, seeing your friends, having a hobby, visiting the grandkids is tough to balance with being an active lds person.

I visit teach a lady who is 73 with serious health problems. She has a walker. Her visiting teaching load is 5 people.

I visit teach another lady who is a single mom with 3 kids, one with special needs. She is our Sunday school teacher, works in the temple, 2 nights a week in the family history centre and another Relief society calling. She is exhausted. No wonder.

We don't know the strains that other people are trying to carry. Life in some parts of the world is tough for lds people.

i wonder how they manage in Japan. A land of long hours and six day work weeks? 

We could all learn so much from your compassion and understanding @Sunday21. I admire that about you, big time. 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

We don't know that this woman has sinned. She may be leaving because she is repelled by a brutal story. Let's be kind.

Yes, I also admire the fact that you are a very compassionate person.  But what I said was not about compassion towards her or lack of compassion for her either.  It was about compassion towards people like you.  Some part of you was thinking that you could have done more. Miav also expressed something along those lines... if only she knew this or that.

The fact is it wouldn't have mattered because she had already made the decision. I didn't come up with the accusation out of thin air.  It was because she personally stated the exact same pattern of behavior that I've seen so many times in people I love.  I also thought "If only I had said or done..."  or "If only they knew..."  No, the truth is that it wouldn't have mattered.  Because it really wasn't about any of those things.

What did she admit to?  She went to go pick up on another woman when she was married.  Even if you take the homosexuality aspect out of it, she was intent on committing adultery.

She said the only thing that kept her from going through with it was the Church (paraphrased, but ultimately accurate).  So, what came next (from her own words)? The next thing she pointed to was the Helmuth Hubener case which eventually led to her leaving.  But the fact is that she made the decision before ever hearing about him.

She wanted to do something wrong, but "oh the church".  Then the church is false.  So now I can leave the church.  What would then come next?  Now I can do it and it isn't wrong.

This was not a blind accusation.  It was from her own words that I saw the exact same pattern I've seen many times.  I've seen that pattern in many of those I love. So, don't think I'm saying this out of spite or anger.  I'm saying this as one who has observed this time and time again.  And I was there in the early stages to see the real cause.

Again, let me emphasize, I'm not saying this out of spite or anger.  I'm saying this because it somewhat hurts to have seen so many I love go down this road.  I also say this because I know many will hurt because they think that they were the ones who said or did something to upset someone into leaving the Church.  While sometimes, that can be the case (I remember one family's story...) many times, it really is just that person's decision to rationalize.

That said, we do want to try to make sure that we're not the ones giving them more ammunition to base their rationalization on.  This is certainly good advice.  But please don't feel guilt over her making her own decision.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Guest

[Sunday21]

@Carborendum. Ok! Yes she may be using this old case as a reason to justify leaving the church. Who knows, maybe someday she will return. I hope so! 

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

@Carborendum. Ok! Yes she may be using this old case as a reason to justify leaving the church. Who knows, maybe someday she will return. I hope so! 

If she runs true to form she will attempt to return in 6 to 18 months.  She will change her name, she'll adjust her story (to whatever trendy) and she'll try to once again play the "I'm so persecuted and the Church is so evil and mean" card and the "My life is so much better now that the big old mean church is out of it" card.  She'll last until she shows enough of her personality that we mods are sure it is her one again and boot her to the curb... for the "I have lost count of how many times we have done this" time.

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If she runs true to form she will attempt to return in 6 to 18 months.  She will change her name, she'll adjust her story (to whatever trendy) and she'll try to once again play the "I'm so persecuted and the Church is so evil and mean" card and the "My life is so much better now that the big old mean church is out of it" card.  She'll last until she shows enough of her personality that we mods are sure it is her one again and boot her to the curb... for the "I have lost count of how many times we have done this" time.

Have you guys seen this individual before?  Or had other individuals follow that pattern?

[estradling75]

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Have you guys seen this individual before?  Or had other individuals follow that pattern?

Yes to both... which sometimes slows us up... but we act when we are sure one way or another.

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, estradling75 said:

Yes to both... which sometimes slows us up... but we act when we are sure one way or another.

Wow, people really need a life.  I just really struggle to believe the "I'm so much better now that I've left and I'm truthful" speech when they are still obsessed with lying and anger.  

I understand that some people have very legit struggles in the church (with people/history/doctrine) which result in some people leaving.  I harbor no ill feelings to people who do leave and move on with their lives- my favorite aunt is one such person.  I honestly wish them the best/happiest possible in their lives.   But individuals who obsess over the past pains aren't happy and aren't moving on- it's just downright unhealthy.

[Sunday21]

Personality Disorder?

[seashmore]

On July 15, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Wow, people really need a life.  I just really struggle to believe the "I'm so much better now that I've left and I'm truthful" speech when they are still obsessed with lying and anger.  

@Jane_Doe I have a friend who loves to tell Mormons he meets, "I used to be Mormon, but then I got better." He also liked to insert that into any conversation involving anything regarding the Church. That is, until I brought a new LDS friend to our writing group and introduced him by saying, "This is Rod. He used to be Mormon, but then he got bitter." (He had told me his story, and I'm confident in my assessment of his reaction to some personal circumstances when he was younger.) A mutual inactive friend snickered and I haven't heard him say it since. 

Anyway, fascinating story about Hubener. I'll have to add a couple more books to my reading list. 

[The Folk Prophet]

On 7/15/2017 at 11:08 AM, Sunday21 said:

We don't know that this woman has sinned.

Except that she isn't Jesus, so...

I'm curious though...not specifically about any given person but just in general based on your comments....

Are you of the opinion that not doing one's callings, not going to church, not keeping up with the so-called "brutal pace" of doing as the Lord asks us, etc., does not constitute sin?

Is sin, in your mind, only adultery or murder?

Edited July 17, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Sunday21]

I had a list of quite bad experiences as a teenager in the church. I was sexually assaulted and so were many others in my area. A number of young women were sexually abused by leaders at that time and are now in therapy. I found this out from a visit to lds family services.

I recognize that there were some disturbed and predatory individuals who were not controlled by leaders. I suspect that we have some of them around  today. I think it is a symptom of our volunteer organization in which people have little or no training or oversight. The leaders refused to believe reports of abuse even when the children of abusers reported abuse.

So yes we make mistakes. Having just anyone teach youth and children with no training or oversight is foolish. I wish the church had a policy of never having only one adult in the room with a child. I am uncomfortable with having a bishop in a room alone with a child. i am uncomfortable with the lack of training and the lack of oversight.

I wish there was someone that you could report problems to. My stake president is a lovely man. He is doing his best but he is seriously truth challenged. He has given advice to young people that is seriously misguided and probably harmful. Who do I tell? And from my experiences as a teenager, who would listen? And what can we do? How would we replace the stake president if he were to step down? No training, no oversight, no checks and balances. 

Of couse we have victims of our church. It would be a miracle if we did not.

But what can you do? I don't think there is a solution. My own path is to be sure that I read scriptures and pray. I no longer accept callings on faith. This last thing was a serious wrench for me as a dedicated Ensign reader in which  always accepting a calling is important. I have had to adjust my behaviour to local conditions. No wonder people go inactive. In low density mormonville., sometimes, some people are treated very badly. Thus members are wary.

I have had a stake calling in which the stake president and the leaders refused to accept my phone calls. No training, no help. It became clear to me that it was not possible to carry out the calling as per Utah protocol. Not that anyone ever explained what Utah protocol was. When I accepted the calling the previous incumbent told me not to accept the calling. She was right. The stake president was not even honest when he gave me the calling. He described the position as being a single adult advisor. I found out that I had been called as stake single adult rep when it was announced at stake conference. This stake president does this routinely. But he has my sympathy. It must be very difficult to get anyone to accept a calling here. 

We very often give major responsibilities such as RS president to those who have just moved into the ward. I don't blame local leaders they are working in horrible conditions. 

I feel that part of the solution is to deviate. Utah wants the priority in visiting teaching to be inactives, new converts. Are we going to do that? Let's pray about that and ponder it. We used to have the 3 hour block spread throughout the week. We don't do that any more. Why? Bad idea.

Not every thing that comes out of Utah is a brilliant idea. Utah wants this. Utah wants that. Well maybe Utah would like to send us a little help along with their improving messages. 

What to do? Honestly there are few solutions but..at the very least why not have someone that you can report problems to? My stake president tells me a story. I realize holy smokes if that young person follows that advice, they may lose their job or their career. I try to explain to him but I realize talking through his hat and saying crazy things is a life long problem. Who do I tell? From my experiences as a teenager in the church, I realize that even if I did tell someone no one would listen.

We are all just getting by here so...could we stop the merry go round? Let's stop pretending that we live in Utah with all these programs. Let's pare down to some basics and stop traumatizing people.

I will be fine. I have learned not to take stake positions or callings I know nothing about. If I am in a calling with young people, I have my own anti bullying program. If I am called again to a RS calling. I will not accept advice from Salt Lake that seems unwise. I am prepared to discuss the new proposals but never again will I ever say, 'let's just implement it. Salt lake knows what they are doing, '  No salt lake does not. I suspect that they are trending water like the rest of us. Very Canadian! Well meaning but not thought out! 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Are you of the opinion that not doing one's callings, not going to church, not keeping up with the so-called "brutal pace" of doing as the Lord asks us, etc., does not constitute sin?

In this vein... One of the households that I saw go down this road was exactly that.  It was not any grevious sin.  It was that they wished they could spend more time doing other things rather than church activities and church callings.

The also reveled in the fact that they now had more money to spend on such activities and material things since they stopped paying tithing.  

They're still "very good people" by society's standards.  And I love them to death.  But this is what they really wanted.  And they spent several years in that "struggling" phase.  Eventually they started looking at anti-Mormon stuff.  When they got sufficient ammunition, they decided to leave the Church.

They even made some efforts to ask me about "our side of the story".  But they simply didn't listen to any of it.  It was common stuff that to me there were perfectly valid reasons to hear what they heard.  I had no struggle over such issues.  But they simply went onward anyway.

This pattern again and again was what made me realize that, while they seem to think they are being sincere in their efforts, they've really already made up their minds.

For some, it is not necessarily about their own sins.  It is about others they love.  In Michael Mclean case, he struggled balancing his love for his son and his love of the gospel.

http://www.ldsliving.com/Michael-McLean-Opens-Up-About-His-9-Year-Faith-Crisis-and-How-He-Found-His-Testimony-Again/s/83606

Again and again, it is merely a decision.  I honestly don't know why some people decide one way vs the other.  But after all I've seen and heard from so many cases, that is what it boils down to.  A decision.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I had a list of quite bad experiences as a teenager in the church. I was sexually assaulted and so were many others in my area. A number of young women were sexually abused by leaders at that time and are now in therapy. I found this out from a visit to lds family services.

I recognize that there were some disturbed and predatory individuals who were not controlled by leaders. I suspect that we have some of them around  today. I think it is a symptom of our volunteer organization in which people have little or no training or oversight. The leaders refused to believe reports of abuse even when the children of abusers reported abuse.

So yes we make mistakes. Having just anyone teach youth and children with no training or oversight is foolish. I wish the church had a policy of never having only one adult in the room with a child. I am uncomfortable with having a bishop in a room alone with a child. i am uncomfortable with the lack of training and the lack of oversight.

I wish there was someone that you could report problems to. My stake president is a lovely man. He is doing his best but he is seriously truth challenged. He has given advice to young people that is seriously misguided and probably harmful. Who do I tell? And from my experiences as a teenager, who would listen? And what can we do? How would we replace the stake president if he were to step down? No training, no oversight, no checks and balances. 

Of couse we have victims of our church. It would be a miracle if we did not.

But what can you do? I don't think there is a solution. My own path is to be sure that I read scriptures and pray. I no longer accept callings on faith. This last thing was a serious wrench for me as a dedicated Ensign reader in which  always accepting a calling is important. I have had to adjust my behaviour to local conditions. No wonder people go inactive. In low density mormonville., sometimes, some people are treated very badly. Thus members are wary.

I have had a stake calling in which the stake president and the leaders refused to accept my phone calls. No training, no help. It became clear to me that it was not possible to carry out the calling as per Utah protocol. Not that anyone ever explained what Utah protocol was. When I accepted the calling the previous incumbent told me not to accept the calling. She was right. The stake president was not even honest when he gave me the calling. He described the position as being a single adult advisor. I found out that I had been called as stake single adult rep when it was announced at stake conference. This stake president does this routinely. But he has my sympathy. It must be very difficult to get anyone to accept a calling here. 

We very often give major responsibilities such as RS president to those who have just moved into the ward. I don't blame local leaders they are working in horrible conditions. 

I feel that part of the solution is to deviate. Utah wants the priority in visiting teaching to be inactives, new converts. Are we going to do that? Let's pray about that and ponder it. We used to have the 3 hour block spread throughout the week. We don't do that any more. Why? Bad idea.

Not every thing that comes out of Utah is a brilliant idea. Utah wants this. Utah wants that. Well maybe Utah would like to send us a little help along with their improving messages. 

What to do? Honestly there are few solutions but..at the very least why not have someone that you can report problems to? My stake president tells me a story. I realize holy smokes if that young person follows that advice, they may lose their job or their career. I try to explain to him but I realize talking through his hat and saying crazy things is a life long problem. Who do I tell? From my experiences as a teenager in the church, I realize that even if I did tell someone no one would listen.

We are all just getting by here so...could we stop the merry go round? Let's stop pretending that we live in Utah with all these programs. Let's pare down to some basics and stop traumatizing people.

I will be fine. I have learned not to take stake positions or callings I know nothing about. If I am in a calling with young people, I have my own anti bullying program. If I am called again to a RS calling. I will not accept advice from Salt Lake that seems unwise. I am prepared to discuss the new proposals but never again will I ever say, 'let's just implement it. Salt lake knows what they are doing, '  No salt lake does not. I suspect that they are trending water like the rest of us. Very Canadian! Well meaning but not thought out! 

 

So the takeaway here is that if I consider my bishop or stake president fools then I am justified in not doing my home teaching?