Equal in heavenly things

[laronius]

In directing the early saints to establish a bishop's storehouse the Lord said this:

3 For verily I say unto you, the time has come, and is now at hand; and behold, and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion—

4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

The being equal in earthly things is I believe a reference to the importance of consecration and caring for and helping our brethren to become "rich like unto ourselves" so that one man does not possess more than another. But what is the being equal in heavenly things and its importance? Spiritual progression is a very personal thing and we each progress at different rates so how can we be equal in heavenly things?

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

In directing the early saints to establish a bishop's storehouse the Lord said this:

3 For verily I say unto you, the time has come, and is now at hand; and behold, and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion—

4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

The being equal in earthly things is I believe a reference to the importance of consecration and caring for and helping our brethren to become "rich like unto ourselves" so that one man does not possess more than another. But what is the being equal in heavenly things and its importance? Spiritual progression is a very personal thing and we each progress at different rates so how can we be equal in heavenly things?

 

I do not think being equal with things means what many think it means.  For example, I do not want very many things.  The main reason is that I do not want to take care of things just because I have them.  But I want some things a lot and those things I take very good care of.  My ski equipment and my bicycle are things I value and I take care of.  I do not like to let others use my bicycle or skis – especially those that do not take care of them.   The reason is (surprise) that they do not take proper care of them.

I have often wondered how G-d feels about letting us be stewards over his creations for which he loves and cares about.  I am convinced he is what some may call shellfish in that I honestly believe if we will not take care of his things – our stewardship will become less and less – perhaps to the point that we have no stewardship at all (which is the worst kind of poverty).

Maybe I am not a true Later-day Saint but I have little regard for those that refuse to take care of their things.  For example, I wonder why someone should have a decent bed when they refuse to even make their bed most days.  The same with dishes.  Those that leave dirty dishes they use in the sink for others to take care of – I do not believe should have equally clean dishes to eat from.

I have come to believe equality is equality of service, love and compassion.  I also have no problem letting others use things I value enough to care for when they care for them as well.  But I do not believe it is a true service to provide things for people that do not appreciate them – at least enough to care for them themselves.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have often wondered how G-d feels about letting us be stewards over his creations for which he loves and cares about.  I am convinced he is what some may call shellfish...

I know we should look for God in all things but I've never considered crabs and lobsters as being especially symbolic, perhaps I need to take a look at that...

Yeah, I don't think it means everyone having the exact same of everything, even the law of consecration doesn't work that way. I think the "sufficient for our needs" principle is the general idea.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I know we should look for God in all things but I've never considered crabs and lobsters as being especially symbolic, perhaps I need to take a look at that...

Yeah, I don't think it means everyone having the exact same of everything, even the law of consecration doesn't work that way. I think the "sufficient for our needs" principle is the general idea.

 

I am sure; that this post will draw a great deal or ire but it certainly appears to me that we are a long way from “"sufficient for our needs” just considering what we eat – let alone anything else requiring any effort.  Mostly we focus on money and what money buys in such matters.  I was taught that anything of value requires effort to achieve.

I believe the meaning of equal is that anyone willing to sacrifice; will be granted access.  That is; what I believe to be equal.  In essence anyone that searches with real intent – will receive the blessing of access to truth.  It is not a matter or rich or poor nor a matter of smart are not so smart – those that seek, knock and ask will be given.

 

The Traveler

[Fether]

Remember it is according to our WANTS and NEEDS. I want a drumset... most people don't. My friend wants a road bike and bike racing equipment... I don't.

I know in the eternities that I will want a strong sounding, easy to tune, 4 piece pearl drumset with either Evans or aquarian drum heads, zildjan cymbals (and maybe 2 wuhan chinas), and a nice crisp high hat. All worth around $3000-$5000 in the US. If I were living in a small community with the law of consecration in full swing, I would settle with a small, 4-piece travel drum-kit, worth $400-$600 approx. If the whole church were doing it, maybe a regular sized stock pearl set worth around $700-$900

(I just want to note that the cheapest drumset you can buy on the market is around $300).

If I saw my buddy Rob (who is infinitely better at all things percussion) running around with a $2000 drum set while I only had a $700 one, I would be fine  he would want it more and would likely use it for his career.

The Law of consecration does not entail all of us having the same clothes, same food, same house, and same car, but rather is a community of people with a desire for their neighbor to be well off and happy. Everyone in such a community finds more joy in their neighbor's success than their own.

the personality trait that prescribes the thinking "Why does he get more than me!?"  Is one of the main reason we can't live the law today.

Also, dealing with your question about equal in Heavenly things, take this quote into consideration:

"A Saint who is one in deed and in truth, does not look for an immaterial heaven, but he expects a heaven with lands, houses, cities, vegetation, rivers, and animals; with thrones, temples, palaces, kings, princes, priests, and angels; with food, raiment, musical instruments, etc., all of which are material. Indeed, the Saints’ heaven is a redeemed, glorified, celestial, material creation, inhabited by glorified material beings, male and female, organized into families, embracing all the relationships of husbands and wives, parents and children, where sorrow, crying, pain, and death will be no more. Or to speak still more definitely, this earth, when glorified, is the Saints’ eternal heaven. On it they expect to live, with body, parts, and holy passions; on it they expect to move and have their being; to eat, drink, converse, worship, sing, play on musical instruments, engage in joyful, innocent, social amusements, visit neighboring towns and neighboring worlds; indeed, matter and its qualities and properties are the only beings or things with which they expect to associate"

- Orson Pratt

I think Heavenly equality is much like earthly equality. You may also add spiritual gifts and Christlike attributes.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Fether

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, Fether said:

Remember it is according to our WANTS and NEEDS. I want a drumset... most people don't. My friend wants a road bike and bike racing equipment... I don't.

I know in the eternities that I will want a strong sounding, easy to tune, 4 piece pearl drumset with either Evans or aquarian drum heads, zildjan cymbals (and maybe 2 wuhan chinas), and a nice crisp high hat. All worth around $3000-$5000 in the US. If I were living in a small community with the law of consecration in full swing, I would settle with a small, 4-piece travel drum-kit, worth $400-$600 approx. If the whole church were doing it, maybe a regular sized stock pearl set worth around $700-$900

(I just want to note that the cheapest drumset you can buy on the market is around $300).

If I saw my buddy Rob (who is infinitely better at all things percussion) running around with a $2000 drum set while I only had a $700 one, I would be fine  he would want it more and would likely use it for his career.

The Law of consecration does not entail all of us having the same clothes, same food, same house, and same car, but rather is a community of people with a desire for their neighbor to be well off and happy. Everyone in such a community finds more joy in their neighbor's success than their own.

the personality trait that prescribes the thinking "Why does he get more than me!?"  Is one of the main reason we can't live the law today.

Also, dealing with your question about equal in Heavenly things, take this quote into consideration:

"A Saint who is one in deed and in truth, does not look for an immaterial heaven, but he expects a heaven with lands, houses, cities, vegetation, rivers, and animals; with thrones, temples, palaces, kings, princes, priests, and angels; with food, raiment, musical instruments, etc., all of which are material. Indeed, the Saints’ heaven is a redeemed, glorified, celestial, material creation, inhabited by glorified material beings, male and female, organized into families, embracing all the relationships of husbands and wives, parents and children, where sorrow, crying, pain, and death will be no more. Or to speak still more definitely, this earth, when glorified, is the Saints’ eternal heaven. On it they expect to live, with body, parts, and holy passions; on it they expect to move and have their being; to eat, drink, converse, worship, sing, play on musical instruments, engage in joyful, innocent, social amusements, visit neighboring towns and neighboring worlds; indeed, matter and its qualities and properties are the only beings or things with which they expect to associate"

- Orson Pratt

I think Heavenly equality is much like earthly equality. You may also add spiritual gifts and Christlike attributes.

 

I have the impression that you have read Moroni chapter 10 beyound the first few verses that many think apply mostly to the Book of Mormon.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

Perhaps we draw too much of a distinction at times between the temporal and spiritual. The Lord has made it clear that ALL things are spiritual to him and so it would make sense that any commandment we receive that appears to be temporally related ultimately would have a greater spiritual purpose to it. Perhaps the idea of Zion is the ideal example of this. It is the creation of oneness among people that is manifested through having all things common among them temporally but is rooted in a condition of a oneness of heart and mind.

[CV75]

On 9/14/2017 at 10:24 AM, laronius said:

In directing the early saints to establish a bishop's storehouse the Lord said this:

3 For verily I say unto you, the time has come, and is now at hand; and behold, and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion—

4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

The being equal in earthly things is I believe a reference to the importance of consecration and caring for and helping our brethren to become "rich like unto ourselves" so that one man does not possess more than another. But what is the being equal in heavenly things and its importance? Spiritual progression is a very personal thing and we each progress at different rates so how can we be equal in heavenly things?

I think the key phrases are "equal in the bonds of heavenly things... for the obtaining of heavenly things... and in obtaining heavenly things."

The bonds are the covenants we are given and the blood that was spilled by Christ -- they are the same for us all. We can all obtain heavenly things, at our our own pace and degree, but ultimately being one with God and joint heirs with Christ.