Changing Mind About Trump

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I think Ben Carson's strength was the ability to choose smart people around him instead of simply pushing yes men. 

That's Trumps strength as well. You can't be that successful in business without surrounding yourself with smart people who don't always agree with you. You have to surround yourself with smart people and listen to them. The "Yes Man" is a stock character that works in anti-buisness movies but in reality, most people who surround themselves with those type of people don't get very far in life. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by MormonGator

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

That's Trumps strength as well. You can't be that successful in business without surrounding yourself with smart people who don't always agree with you. You have to surround yourself with smart people and listen to them. The "Yes Man" is a stock character that works in anti-buisness crowds but in reality, most people like that don't get very far. 

Which is why he fired Comey and wanted to fire Mueller...because they are yes men and he doesn't surround himself with yes men????

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

Which is why he fired Comey and wanted to fire Mueller...because they are yes men and he doesn't surround himself with yes men????

Believe me JJ, I'm not a Trumper at all. But you have to be fair. 

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Believe me JJ, I'm not a Trumper at all. But you have to be fair. 

[Guest]

Looks like Trump may have fixed the whole North Korea issue!  (and at very least, he is addressing the problem).

I have to hand it to Trump, he is doing a far, far, far better job at being president than I expected (he appears to have a lot of raw talent as a leader) and may even be one of the better presidents we have ever had (and I was actually cautiously optimistic about his election).

Edited March 8, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[anatess2]

On 1/31/2018 at 3:03 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Which is why he fired Comey and wanted to fire Mueller...because they are yes men and he doesn't surround himself with yes men????

He fired Comey because he was corrupted.  Even the Democrats wanted Obama to fire the guy.

He wants to fire Mueller because Mueller is spending beau-coup tax dollars on a witch hunt that became clearer as time goes on that he is keeping the investigation open to protect the previous administration in addition to the witch hunt - after all, getting rid of Trump is the ultimate in protecting the previous administration.

 

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

Looks like Trump may have fixed the whole North Korea issue!  (and at very least, he is addressing the problem).

I have to hand it to Trump, he is doing a far, far, far better job at being president than I expected (he appears to have a lot of raw talent as a leader) and may even be one of the better presidents we have ever had (and I was actually cautiously optimistic about his election).

That's putting the cart before the horse.  The whole North Korea issue is FAAAAR from getting fixed.  But yes, Trump's foreign policy is making the players in the Pacific theater much more well-behaved than previous decades regardless of the constant undermining of the leftist media.  I mean - seriously, CNN fawning over Yo Jong while denigrating Pence in an international stage?  Cheez lueez.

Now, this is where the Republican bloomers are going to be on a twist - Steel and Aluminum tariffs.

[bytebear]

Dr. Drew Pinsky, TV and radio doctor, big on addition treatment had some very good comments on the radio the other day on the media's coverage of Trump.  He went to a meeting of the top political people on the opeoid epidemic, and he's an expert in the field.  He said the meeting was extremely positive, and he truly believed the administration had the right ideas, and the right people to do it.  He was totally optimistic about it.  Well, he said at the last minute the president came in, thanked everyone, did the standard pat on the backs, and told people they were doing good work.  He wasn't actually part of the discussion, just giving a thanks to everyone.  Apparently in his comments he said something to the effect of, "I think for some of these drug dealers we need to inflict the maximum penalty".  Well, the next day, the headlines and stories were all "Trump want to execute drug dealers". Nothing about the actual plans, nothing about the discussion, and that's the problem.  The media doesn't want to report on what is, but on what they want things to be.  They constantly and continually predict things that don't happen.  And they chase stories that end up being red herrings.  And we are not being told the truth.  And it's extremely frustrating.

Bear in mind, Dr Drew was a regular CNN contributor during the election, and was told by his conservative friend Adam Corolla (they had a show together years ago) that the media was lying to the public, and he couldn't give a fair assessment. Dr. Drew denied it, saying CNN never told him what to say, or censor his words.  That is, until he commented that Hillary Clinton looked like she had a serious neurological issue and needed to be checked out.  After that on-air statement, he was taken off and ultimately fired from CNN.  He has never trusted the media ever since.  And neither should you.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, bytebear said:

He has never trusted the media ever since.  And neither should you.

Sadly in 2018 people only trust news that fits their political views. It's classic confirmation bias, and it's so depressing. So depressing. If it's a negative story about someone we like, well it has to be fake news! If it's a positive story about someone we like-it's clearly true! 

That's not how the real world works.  

Edited March 19, 2018 by MormonGator

[NeuroTypical]

Don't ignore the truth.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Don't ignore the truth.

Well, when you put it that way... I'd say that if Obama gave us Shrek Forever After and Puss in Boots, the 0 Shrek movies was an improvement.

[SpiritDragon]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:08 AM, MormonGator said:

Sadly in 2018 people only trust news that fits their political views. It's classic confirmation bias, and it's so depressing. So depressing. If it's a negative story about someone we like, well it has to be fake news! If it's a positive story about someone we like-it's clearly true! 

That's not how the real world works.  

It's sad, but true. I think the lack of trust in news in general comes from lazy journalism, being tired of bombardment in the information age, and the fact that somewhere online material can be found to support just about any position on any topic. It's just plain hard to know what is trustworthy, so people tend to go with the narrative they "feel" is accurate.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

It's sad, but true. I think the lack of trust in news in general comes from lazy journalism, being tired of bombardment in the information age, and the fact that somewhere online material can be found to support just about any position on any topic. It's just plain hard to know what is trustworthy, so people tend to go with the narrative they "feel" is accurate.

Agree totally. I also think it shows how arrogant and thin skinned we are. After all, if a news source or historical fact disagrees with us, it's has to be them that is wrong. Not us. No, never us. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

It's sad, but true. I think the lack of trust in news in general comes from lazy journalism, being tired of bombardment in the information age, and the fact that somewhere online material can be found to support just about any position on any topic. It's just plain hard to know what is trustworthy, so people tend to go with the narrative they "feel" is accurate.

16 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Agree totally. I also think it shows how arrogant and thin skinned we are. After all, if a news source or historical fact disagrees with us, it's has to be them that is wrong. Not us. No, never us. 

How is this different than any point in history?

[Guest]

I saw a quick glimpse of a headline in the past month about Trump picking a highly liberal nominee to head... HHS???  People were having a gasket over it.  Now I can't find anything on it.  Maybe I'm using the wrong search terms.  What was that about?

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I saw a quick glimpse of a headline in the past month about Trump picking a highly liberal nominee to head... HHS???  People were having a gasket over it.  Now I can't find anything on it.  Maybe I'm using the wrong search terms.  What was that about?

I haven't heard of any highly liberal nominee lately.  The HHS guy - Alex Azar - was controversial because he worked with big pharma.  He's a Republican though.  Wilbur Ross - Commerce Secretary - is the liberal in Trump's cabinet.  But he's been there since early last year.  He did make some news lately due to the aluminum and steal tariffs.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I haven't heard of any highly liberal nominee lately.  The HHS guy - Alex Azar - was controversial because he worked with big pharma.  He's a Republican though.  Wilbur Ross - Commerce Secretary - is the liberal in Trump's cabinet.  But he's been there since early last year.  He did make some news lately due to the aluminum and steal tariffs.

Maybe it wasn't HHS.  Notice the ???.

But it was something big. Labor secretary? I don't remember.  But it was because he was highly liberal and would naturally use his position for a very liberal agenda.

Seriously?  No one remembers this?

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Maybe it wasn't HHS.  Notice the ???.

But it was something big. Labor secretary? I don't remember.  But it was because he was highly liberal and would naturally use his position for a very liberal agenda.

Seriously?  No one remembers this?

Of course I noticed the ???.  There's 3 of them.  Hard to miss.

I understood your recollection to mean somebody nominated recently... Azar in the HHS is the latest appointment not counting the changes in the State Dept and CIA - both of which have been cabinet members or assistants in the Trump admin (besides being far from liberal).  Ross is the only one in the Trump cabinet that is liberal - well, Tillerson too but he's gone - and Ross was in the news recently due to the tariffs (a decision regaled by Republicans as a liberal position).

Labor can't be it - Acosta is ultra conservative.

[SpiritDragon]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Quote

It's sad, but true. I think the lack of trust in news in general comes from lazy journalism, being tired of bombardment in the information age, and the fact that somewhere online material can be found to support just about any position on any topic. It's just plain hard to know what is trustworthy, so people tend to go with the narrative they "feel" is accurate

How is this different than any point in history?

There probably isn't much different now in this regard than throughout history, I suppose. Was this meant to be a rhetorical question? Am I not supposed to respond? Certainly governments have always used propaganda to get the people to 'behave". It would seem that with the advent of the internet there is a greater platform for disseminating information than ever before and governments have had to become craftier to perpetuate propaganda. Perhaps it is the level of sophistication that has changed. I know for me that I have noticed more than ever that everything is more politically charged and the propaganda is all over in the entertainment world and in the education system and so on. Maybe it's just me that's changed - i used to think of entertainment as something that was meant to be fun, but now it seems like yet another tool to insidiously drive political agendas. I used to think school was a place to learn, I know see it more as a system of grooming each generation farther to the left and farther from god - perhaps in some places it could even be for brainwashing children and young adults toward the political right - I just have experienced the push to conform left. I used to think that facts mattered, but they don't seem to often enough when they get in the way of someone's story.

[NeuroTypical]

So, something that always gets my goat, is when some prominent American goes overseas and bashes the US or airs our dirty laundry or does the geopolitical equivalent of talking bad about the spouse when you're out.  I helped end the Dixie Chicks.  I criticized Pres. Obama for bowing to foreign leaders.  I'm occasionally on record griping about some democrat or other standing on foreign soil and publicly talking smack about some aspect of the US.

So I'm not giving Trump a pass here, in his press conference with Putin, where he sits there and harps on Democrats. 

Quote

As President I cannot make decisions on foreign policy in a futile effort to appease partisan critics, or the media, or Democrats who want to do nothing but resist and obstruct...

Ya done messed up, A-aron.  Here I was, thinking good things about you, what with the tax breaks and good economy and strong meaningful changes and good supreme court picks and all.  And then you go mess it up with this.  You took away from an otherwise outstanding press conference that was almost Reaganesque in the directness in which you took Putin to task in front of the whole world.   

Do not make this a habit, Pres. Trump.  Knock it off.   When you're standing there looking at Putin, you tell him that you and all the Democrats will sit there and kick his butt as much as it needs to be kicked.  You don't whine about your problems at home.

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, something that always gets my goat, is when some prominent American goes overseas and bashes the US or airs our dirty laundry or does the geopolitical equivalent of talking bad about the spouse when you're out.  I helped end the Dixie Chicks.  I criticized Pres. Obama for bowing to foreign leaders.  I'm occasionally on record griping about some democrat or other standing on foreign soil and publicly talking smack about some aspect of the US.

So I'm not giving Trump a pass here, in his press conference with Putin, where he sits there and harps on Democrats. 

Ya done messed up, A-aron.  Here I was, thinking good things about you, what with the tax breaks and good economy and strong meaningful changes and good supreme court picks and all.  And then you go mess it up with this.  You took away from an otherwise outstanding press conference that was almost Reaganesque in the directness in which you took Putin to task in front of the whole world.   

Do not make this a habit, Pres. Trump.  Knock it off.   When you're standing there looking at Putin, you tell him that you and all the Democrats will sit there and kick his butt as much as it needs to be kicked.  You don't whine about your problems at home.

 

Trump's opening remarks were adequate. No complaints, though it bothers me that he uses harsher language when talking about our allies than he does when talking about countries like Russia and North Korea. Here were my "red flag" moments during the press conference. 

- Trump's "bothsidesism" response to election interference was an incredibly weak stance to take while standing next to the leader of a hostile nation. 

- Trump essentially condemned the Mueller investigation despite the fact that it just linked 12 Russians to election interference activity. He also made a point of claiming that he ran a "clean campaign" despite it being run by indicted criminals (which he acknowledged while also downplaying). 

- Trump incorrectly claimed that the Electoral College benefits the Democrats. Not a huge deal, but a bit embarrassing for a US president not to understand the political dynamics of his own electoral system while speaking on foreign soil.  

- Trump, by his own admission, was told by his top intelligence officer (Dan Coates) that Russia meddled with the 2016 election, was told by Putin that Russia did not do so, and that he is choosing to believe Putin. I practically grew up in the US intelligence community and am absolutely appalled by this.

- You and I are in agreement that Trump attacking the Dems is a very foolish thing to do in that setting. 

 

BUT WAIT, in the couple of hours since the press conference, ANOTHER indictment has been sealed against a Russian national. Key wording from the indictment (emphasis mine):

"According to the affidavit in support of the complaint, from as early as 2015 and continuing through at least February 2017, Butina worked at the direction of a high-level official in the Russian government who was previously a member of the legislature of the Russian Federation and later became a top official at the Russian Central Bank."

This directly contradicts Putin's stance that any meddling in our 2016 election was the work of private Russian citizens and not sanctioned by the Russian government. Putin just lied to the world and Trump stood there and let him do it. 

Also, fun fact, Butina was very active in NRA political circles. 

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, something that always gets my goat, is when some prominent American goes overseas and bashes the US or airs our dirty laundry or does the geopolitical equivalent of talking bad about the spouse when you're out.  I helped end the Dixie Chicks.  I criticized Pres. Obama for bowing to foreign leaders.  I'm occasionally on record griping about some democrat or other standing on foreign soil and publicly talking smack about some aspect of the US.

So I'm not giving Trump a pass here, in his press conference with Putin, where he sits there and harps on Democrats. 

Ya done messed up, A-aron.  Here I was, thinking good things about you, what with the tax breaks and good economy and strong meaningful changes and good supreme court picks and all.  And then you go mess it up with this.  You took away from an otherwise outstanding press conference that was almost Reaganesque in the directness in which you took Putin to task in front of the whole world.   

Do not make this a habit, Pres. Trump.  Knock it off.   When you're standing there looking at Putin, you tell him that you and all the Democrats will sit there and kick his butt as much as it needs to be kicked.  You don't whine about your problems at home.

I wanted to respond to this with my own words but I think this guy does an adequate enough job of expressing what I think.  This is not about "American squabbling" like the Dixie Chicks.  What the Democrats... or I should just say the "Deep State" because I am fairly certain it is not limited to the Democrats... go beyond America and has GREAT impact on US Foreign Policy and how it is perceived by world nations, especially rival nations like Russia/China/North Korea/et. al.  This is not something that you can just whine about at home when the POTUS is being undermined outside of home, even by prominent people like Obama himself.

 

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

 

Trump's opening remarks were adequate. No complaints, though it bothers me that he uses harsher language when talking about our allies than he does when talking about countries like Russia and North Korea. 

In what way do you mean by "harsher language" and which ones are you calling your allies?  You mean calling out China for trade imbalances is harsh?   Do you consider China your ally?  Calling out Germany for their piddly defense spending while having direct gas lines to Russia is harsh?  Harsh against who?  Germany - the ally - but not Russia - the not-ally?  Calling out Trudeau for his backstab kindergarten trade maneuver is harsh because Canada is an ally but congratulating Putin for the World Cup is too nice because he's not-ally?

[NeuroTypical]

24 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not about "American squabbling" like the Dixie Chicks. 

This?  You mean the summit in general?  I agree.  Sounds like lots of good things happened.  I remember an account of the Reagan/Gorbachev meeting in '86.  The person telling the story recounted how the meeting started very brusquely, even rudely, where Reagan sat there and recited off bullet point after bullet point of soviet aggression. Gorbachev finally had enough and interrupted him, and Reagan explained he wanted to be absolutely clear why there was a good guy and a bad guy in the room, and which one Gorbachev was.  As I listened to the things Trump said about Putin, right there with Putin sitting there, I harkened back.  It was good to hear.

But yeah, no, regardless of what Trump thought "this" was about, yes indeed, he sat there and badmouthed Democrats to the entire world with Putin standing right there.  Regardless of what else happened, that happened.  I want Trump to do more of the rest of "this", and not badmouth Americans on the world stage any more.  

 

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

  I helped end the Dixie Chicks. 

Dude, murder is totally not cool!