Angels, what is with these guys?

[Sunday21]

John 3

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

So having just made a big fuss about not bothering with niggling details....What is with angels anyway? 

This verse from John seems to say that no one has entered the Celstial Kingdom but Christ. So angels are people like Adam & Noah who have died but not been resurrected? Right? So after Christ’s mortal ministry, some people who were righteous were resurrected but everyone after that time is waiting till the the end of the world? Right? 

If we don’t know, just say and I will find something else to think about!

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sunday21

[zil]

In context, Jesus appears to be speaking of his resurrection and ascension into heaven as an exalted being - he's speaking of the future in the past tense, as if it had already happened.  (See @Grunt's thread on Moses 2:26 (I think).)  The footnotes on "ascended" and "came" lead me to this conclusion.

Also, I don't know what word is used for "man" vs "angel" in the original, but I'm going to assume we should think of them differently - where "man" is a physical being.  Prior to Christ's resurrection, no man who was or ever had been a mortal on earth had ascended into heaven - not as a resurrected being anyway - Christ was the first.  As for angels, see the Bible Dictionary on the topic - they could be pre-mortal spirits, post-mortal spirits, translated beings, mortals, or resurrected beings (so, anyone).  But if there were any resurrected angels prior to Christ's resurrection (I'm going to assume there weren't), they would have had to at least come from a different world than this one (as no one belonging to this world was resurrected before Christ - it's unclear to me whether anyone belonging to any other world was, though since the Book of Moses (or Abraham?) speaks of worlds having come and gone, one wonders), but that would violate the rule which Joseph Smith (I think) explained - that those who minister to this earth have or will experience mortality on this earth (that they "belong" to it).

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

So after Christ’s mortal ministry, some people who were righteous were resserected but everyone after that time is waiting till the the end of the world? Right? 

We know that after Christ was resurrected, other righteous individuals who died prior to Christ's resurrection were also resurrected.  I don't know that we can say for 100% certain that no one who died after Christ has been resurrected - certainly, that would not be the norm, but I think it's possible some might have been (I could be wrong).

[eVa]

That being said, pre-mortal Adam was Michael during the creation.  So did he go back to being Michael once he left earth?

[person0]

17 minutes ago, eVa said:

That being said, pre-mortal Adam was Michael during the creation.  So did he go back to being Michael once he left earth?

I don't know for certain, but I would assume it will remain one of his name-titles, but perhaps not be his name eternally.  Do we more often refer to Christ as Jehovah or as Jesus Christ?

Really, I assume all of us will have seemingly completely different names when we enter the Celestial Kingdom.  I think this for two reasons:  1)  The scriptures say we will all receive a new name; 2)  We will speak the same language God speaks, which is not English, and is likely not found on the earth right now.

Quote

‘What is the name of God in the pure language?’ The answer says, ‘Ahman.’ ‘What is the name of the Son of God?’ Answer, ‘Son Ahman—the greatest of all the parts of God excepting Ahman.’” (In Journal of Discourses, 2:342.)

[eVa]

22 minutes ago, person0 said:

Do we more often refer to Christ as Jehovah or as Jesus Christ?

Good point!!  

[warnerfranklin]

I find the LDS doctrine of angels to be, for lack of a better word, odd. As a former evangelical I was taught that angels were a separate and distinct race of beings that had been created to serve God in the heavenly realm. They do not become humans, although they do have the power to take on bodily form (Such as when God sent Angels to rescue Lot from Sodom or those that visited Abraham and Daniel).

The LDS doctrine, to the best I understand it, angels are human spirits in either their pre or post mortal existence.

A friend of mine says that our work doesn’t end when we leave this life and return to our Father. So if this is true, it only makes sense that our exalted selves would be sent on missions and that mortals who interact with us in that exhalted state would call us Angels. 

As to their true nature I’m undecided.  

[zil]

26 minutes ago, warnerfranklin said:

I find the LDS doctrine of angels to be, for lack of a better word, odd. As a former evangelical I was taught that angels were a separate and distinct race of beings that had been created to serve God in the heavenly realm. They do not become humans, although they do have the power to take on bodily form (Such as when God sent Angels to rescue Lot from Sodom or those that visited Abraham and Daniel).

The LDS doctrine, to the best I understand it, angels are human spirits in either their pre or post mortal existence.

A friend of mine says that our work doesn’t end when we leave this life and return to our Father. So if this is true, it only makes sense that our exalted selves would be sent on missions and that mortals who interact with us in that exhalted state would call us Angels. 

As to their true nature I’m undecided.  

See the Bible Dictionary link I posted above.  I think you'll find it interesting, if nothing else.

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

If we don’t know, just say and I will find something else to think about!

 

I don't know so go think about something else  

[warnerfranklin]

40 minutes ago, zil said:

See the Bible Dictionary link I posted above.  I think you'll find it interesting, if nothing else.

Zil, thank you. That was a great link and it answered some of the nuances out there. Greatly appreciate it !

[Vort]

1 hour ago, warnerfranklin said:

I find the LDS doctrine of angels to be, for lack of a better word, odd.

I find the taste of kimchee to be odd. That's purely because I'm not used to it. The LDS concept of angels is IMO far more reasonable and even logical than, well, anyone else's. Of course, I'm used to it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I find the taste of kimchee to be odd. That's purely because I'm not used to it. The LDS concept of angels is IMO far more reasonable and even logical than, well, anyone else's. Of course, I'm used to it.

HEY!!! Them's fightin' words....

Just kidding.  I admit it's odd.  But I still like it.  So, to compare it to LDS doctrines.  Yeah, ok.  I'll take it.

[eVa]

21 hours ago, Vort said:

kimchee

Holy cow, I want Korean food now!!!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, eVa said:

Holy cow, I want Korean food now!!!

Where in Oklahoma are you?  You'll probably have to head to OKC to get any good Korean.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Guest

[brlenox]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:26 AM, Sunday21 said:

John 3

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

So having just made a big fuss about not bothering with niggling details....What is with angels anyway? 

This verse from John seems to say that no one has entered the Celstial Kingdom but Christ. So angels are people like Adam & Noah who have died but not been resurrected? Right? So after Christ’s mortal ministry, some people who were righteous were resurrected but everyone after that time is waiting till the the end of the world? Right? 

If we don’t know, just say and I will find something else to think about!

 

 

Quote

 

Who will resurrect Joseph’s Body? It will be Peter, James, John, Moroni, or someone who has or will receive the keys of the resurrection. It will probably be one of those who hold the keys of this dispensation and has delivered them to Joseph and you will see Jesus and he will eat peaches and apples with you. But the world will not see it or know it for wickedness will increase. Joseph and Jesus will be there. They will walk and talk with them at times and no man mistrusts who they are. Joseph will lead the Armies of Israel whether he is seen or no, whether visible or invisible as seemeth him good.

 

Joseph has got to receive the keys of the resurrection for you and I. After he is resurrected he will go and resurrect Brother Brigham, Brother Heber, and Brother Carlos, and when that is done then He will say, “now go Brother Brigham and resurrect your wives and children and gather them together. While this is done, the wicked will know nothing of it, though they will be in our midst and they will be struck with fear. This is the way the resurrection will be. All will not be raised at once but will continue in this way until all the righteous are resurrected.

 

After Joseph comes to us in his resurrected body, He will more fully instruct us concerning the baptism for the dead and the sealing ordinances. He will say, be baptized for this man and that man and that man be sealed to that such a man to such a man, and connect the Priesthood together. I tell you there will not be much of this done until Joseph comes…  10. Susan Staker, ed., Waiting for the World’s End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff,pp.168-169. See also Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews, chapter 44, The Doctrine of the Resurrection, p. 505-525

 

The implication is that this will begin before the millennium, as he is referencing the wickedness of the world and such...

[eVa]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Where in Oklahoma are you?  You'll probably have to head to OKC to get any good Korean

OKC.  The best Korean I have had is in MWC, just 15 mins away by Tinker AFB.  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, eVa said:

OKC.  The best Korean I have had is in MWC, just 15 mins away by Tinker AFB.  

As a non-resident, I consider that part of OKC.  So, Seoul Garden or Korean House?  I hear they're both pretty good.  We travel through OKC every time we head to Denver to visit relatives.  We should try them sometime.

[eVa]

I do Korean House most of the time, but when I attend training classes I will go to Seoul Garden due to time constraints.  There is a new "modern" Korean place on 23rd street called Chae.  I haven't been yet, but it would be more romantic if it's a date night.  However, you should definitely stop by next time you come through town.

[wenglund]

On 2/12/2018 at 5:26 AM, Sunday21 said:

John 3

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

So having just made a big fuss about not bothering with niggling details....What is with angels anyway? 

This verse from John seems to say that no one has entered the Celstial Kingdom but Christ. So angels are people like Adam & Noah who have died but not been resurrected? Right? So after Christ’s mortal ministry, some people who were righteous were resurrected but everyone after that time is waiting till the the end of the world? Right? 

 

I read the passage a little differently. To me, Jesus is responding to Nicodemus, who is a Pharisees. And, since Pharisees believe in a resurrection of both the good and bad (see HERE), one of several issues that was puzzling to Nicodemus over what Jesus had said about being born again, wasn't so much regarding what happens after this life, but rather before this life. He had no concept of a pre-mortal existence. So, Jesus was using what Nicodemus believed in (i.e. the after life) as a way of teaching him what he didn't know or believe in (i.e. ipre-mortal life), and Jesus, the  acknowledged teacher from God, used himself a a prime example.  

This, to me, is why Jesus mentions man ascending to heaven prior to mentioning man also coming down from heaven.

In other words, it may be like Jesus responding, "Well Nick, you know how you believe that all men will ascend to heaven? I am here to tell you that all men also came down from heaven, just like me."

This deficit in understanding was a barrier to Nicodemus grasping the notion of rebirth, since it presupposes an existence prior to the rebirth.

So, in addition to helping Nicodemus grasp the notion that, while all will be resurrected as he supposes, only those who are born again will dwell in God's kingdom,  Jesus determined to also instruct him about the pre-existence.

As missionaries we do pretty much the same with the discussion of the Plan of Salvation since most Christians, and other Bible-based religions, don't believe in a pre-existence

Thanks, -Wade Englund-