Are animals damned?

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, zil said:

The entirety of scripture backs it up.  Scripture is the words of prophets!  That's the definition!  Prophets did not cease to exist with Moroni or John the Revelator.

The words of living prophets ("when moved upon by the Holy Ghost") are scripture just as much as the words of dead prophets are scripture.  Yet you reject the living in favor of (some of) the dead.  You talk about scripture as if the heavens were closed.  You're as bad as people who say, "A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible." (2 Nephi 29)

Yet you would shut the Lord's mouth and tell him not to reveal more, that if he chose not to reveal details to people in ages past, he must not reveal those details to people in this age.

Just because it is not written in ancient scripture does not mean it is not of the Lord (if it did, the majority of what the Church does today would have to be called wrong).  The scriptural teachings on exaltation, salvation, and damnation are in perfect harmony from Genesis 1 through General Conference October 2017 - if you include them all into your understanding.  But you just pick and choose so that your narrow understanding can be true, and speak ill of prophets who teach contrary to your interpretation (and yes, it is speaking ill of a prophet when you say he's teaching incorrectly about the three degrees of glory).  The "conflict" you see between ancient scripture and the teachings of living prophets is entirely made up in your head.  It does not exist in reality.

<sigh>

so, what do you make of the passage in section 29 I quoted. Am I wrong to teach everyone saved from the eternal hell receive eternal life?

[zil]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

so, what do you make of the passage in section 29 I quoted. Am I wrong to teach everyone saved from the eternal hell receive eternal life?

You keep insisting on taking things in isolation.  I reject your approach.

41 minutes ago, zil said:

The scriptural teachings on exaltation, salvation, and damnation are in perfect harmony from Genesis 1 through General Conference October 2017 - if you include them all into your understanding.

 

[anatess2]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Has nothing to do with the three glories. There isnt a scripture that defines damnation as any part of heaven.

In the myopic definition of damned, you are correct.  This is Salvation - either you are saved or you are damned.  In the restored-gospel expanded teaching of eternal life that extends beyond the teaching of Salvation and into Exaltation then you have modern prophets use the word for a state less than Celestial glory for those who have attained salvation but have that greater potential.  Damnation relative to Exhaltation is, therefore, a different nuance than Damnation relative to Salvation.  We reference the first, you reference the 2nd... and that's why the discussion is not going to have a resolution.

Edited March 29, 2018 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

23 minutes ago, zil said:

You keep insisting on taking things in isolation.  I reject your approach.

 

Anyone with any brains at ALL rejects this approach because it's moronic.

[The Folk Prophet]

22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

In the myopic definition of damned, you are correct.  This is Salvation - either you are saved or you are damned.  In the restored-gospel expanded teaching of eternal life that extends beyond the teaching of Salvation and into Exaltation then you have modern prophets use the word for a state less than Celestial glory for those who have attained salvation but have that greater potential.  Damnation relative to Exhaltation is, therefore, a different nuance than Damnation relative to Salvation.  We reference the first, you reference the 2nd... and that's why the discussion is not going to have a resolution.

20 bucks his response is something along the lines of "show me one scripture that...."

[anatess2]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

20 bucks his response is something along the lines of "show me one scripture that...."

Interestingly, this is the EXACT SAME situation with the Grace versus Works discussion that always goes nowhere too.  And when Catholics and Protestants debate that particular one, they fling verses from the Holy Bible at each other.  LDS folks can't get in a word edge-wise because we agree with Grace when it pertains to Salvation but we also agree with Works when it pertains to Exaltation.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

In the myopic definition of damned, you are correct.  This is Salvation - either you are saved or you are damned.  In the restored-gospel expanded teaching of eternal life that extends beyond the teaching of Salvation and into Exaltation then you have modern prophets use the word for a state less than Celestial glory for those who have attained salvation but have that greater potential.  Damnation relative to Exhaltation is, therefore, a different nuance than Damnation relative to Salvation.  We reference the first, you reference the 2nd... and that's why the discussion is not going to have a resolution.

The word "exaltation" is interesting in that once again we sort of misuse the word. We end up equating exaltation with eternal life. In the "Guide to the Scriptures" it gives the definition of exaltation as- "The highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom." I would fully agree with this, its the correct definition (imagine that, I agree with the church). Under "eternal life" it gives this definition- "To live forever as families in God’s presence (D&C 132:19–20, 24, 55). Eternal life is God’s greatest gift to man." I would also agree with this. Now, are the same thing- eternal life and exaltation? Not according to the Guide to the Scriptures. And I readily agree. But then, in a different part of the website it uses different language-

In Gospel Topics it states- "Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families...After we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, much of our progress toward eternal life depends on our receiving other ordinances of salvation: for men, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood; for men and women, the temple endowment and marriage sealing. When we receive these ordinances and keep the covenants that accompany them, we prepare ourselves to inherit eternal life."

So, according to this definition they are equated as the same exact thing. I disagree. Why, well, when you read scripture passages such as this one-

25 And little children also have eternal life. (Mosiah 15:25)

So, are we supposed to understand that little children are already married or are destined to be married so that its true they will be exalted? This is why you cant confuse definitions, yet another reason we have issues. Everyone saved from hell will receive eternal life which is actually more synonymous with salvation. Then, those who go on and have been sealed to a spouse go on into exaltation. They are different. Without properly understanding that principle none of our discussion regarding eternal life and exaltation will make sense as we both wont understand each other. So, are we going to use the Guide to the scriptures definition (which is the right definition) or are we going to use the gospel topics definition which of couse has the wrong definition?

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

The word "exaltation" is interesting in that once again we sort of misuse the word. We end up equating exaltation with eternal life. In the "Guide to the Scriptures" it gives the definition of exaltation as- "The highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial kingdom." I would fully agree with this, its the correct definition (imagine that, I agree with the church). Under "eternal life" it gives this definition- "To live forever as families in God’s presence (D&C 132:19–20, 24, 55). Eternal life is God’s greatest gift to man." I would also agree with this. Now, are the same thing- eternal life and exaltation? Not according to the Guide to the Scriptures. And I readily agree. But then, in a different part of the website it uses different language-

In Gospel Topics it states- "Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God's presence and to continue as families...After we are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, much of our progress toward eternal life depends on our receiving other ordinances of salvation: for men, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood; for men and women, the temple endowment and marriage sealing. When we receive these ordinances and keep the covenants that accompany them, we prepare ourselves to inherit eternal life."

So, according to this definition they are equated as the same exact thing. I disagree. Why, well, when you read scripture passages such as this one-

25 And little children also have eternal life. (Mosiah 15:25)

So, are we supposed to understand that little children are already married or are destined to be married so that its true they will be exalted? This is why you cant confuse definitions, yet another reason we have issues. Everyone saved from hell will receive eternal life which is actually more synonymous with salvation. Then, those who go on and have been sealed to a spouse go on into exaltation. They are different. Without properly understanding that principle none of our discussion regarding eternal life and exaltation will make sense as we both wont understand each other. So, are we going to use the Guide to the scriptures definition (which is the right definition) or are we going to use the gospel topics definition which of couse has the wrong definition?

 

Yeah, we've been through this before.  No need to rehash it when we're just going around and around.  Hmm... that's a Spandau Ballet song!

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

20 bucks his response is something along the lines of "show me one scripture that...."

Yeah I may drop that line as it appears there are no scriptures you guys can give that refute my points. 

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah, we've been through this before.  No need to rehash it when we're just going around and around.  Hmm... that's a Spandau Ballet song

So tell me, how is it that children have exaltation in the highest degree within the celestial glory?

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We end up equating exaltation with eternal life.

By "we" you mean the prophets, as in OUR LIVING PROPHETs.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/salvation-and-exaltation?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/ponder-the-path-of-thy-feet?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/10/the-father-son-and-holy-ghost?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/04/the-stone-cut-without-hands?lang=eng

and apostles:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-priesthood-and-the-saviors-atoning-power?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/04/answers-to-lifes-questions?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1982/04/the-doctrine-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

And that's just a perfunctory search without even trying.

[Rob Osborn]

I give you a little gospel wisdom- there are two predicaments we can find ourselves in the end- "eternal life" or "eternal death". We know this from the Book of Mormon-

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom. (2 Nephi 2:27-29)

Now, take the two terms and insert the word spiritual in them to make- "eternal spiritual life" and "eternal spiritual death". That is the correct meaning and thus shows why all the saved receive eternal life and the rest, who are those cast into hell with the devil and his angels receive eternal death.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah I may drop that line as it appears there are no scriptures you guys can give that refute my points. 

This is your logic. "I interpret a scripture thusly, and according to my interpretation of any of the scriptures you give, you can't prove by the scriptures that my interpretation of the scripture is wrong, because I interpret it that way."

What's it like to be too daft to know how daft you are?

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This is your logic. "I interpret a scripture thusly, and according to my interpretation of any of the scriptures you give, you can't prove by the scriptures that my interpretation of the scripture is wrong, because I interpret it that way."

What's it like to be too daft to know how daft you are?

Hum...I find it kind of interesting that I can actually find scriptures that explain simply and factually all of my points...strange indeed.

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

By "we" you mean the prophets, as in OUR LIVING PROPHETs.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/salvation-and-exaltation?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/ponder-the-path-of-thy-feet?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/10/the-father-son-and-holy-ghost?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/04/the-stone-cut-without-hands?lang=eng

and apostles:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-priesthood-and-the-saviors-atoning-power?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/04/answers-to-lifes-questions?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1982/04/the-doctrine-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

And that's just a perfunctory search without even trying.

So, did you go through and read every one of those talks?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...I find it kind of interesting that I can actually find scriptures that explain simply and factually all of my points...strange indeed.

@anatess owes me $20.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@anatess owes me $20.

So, no scriptures eh? I know you cant find any.

[Rob Osborn]

Like if I was an investigator and I asked you to find me a scripture? Could you do it if it meant the difference in converting a soul? Thats the test brother

[The Folk Prophet]

How 'bout a little Joseph Smith: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng

“Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, … by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. …

“… [The righteous who have died] shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.”8

 

“They who obtain a glorious resurrection from the dead, are exalted far above principalities, powers, thrones, dominions and angels, and are expressly declared to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, all having eternal power [see Romans 8:17].”9

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens. He knew a man that was caught up to the third heaven [see 1 Corinthians 15:40–41; 2 Corinthians 12:2–4]. … Jesus said unto His disciples, ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and I will come and receive you to myself, that where I am ye may be also.’ [See John 14:2–3.]”4

“Go and read the vision in [Doctrine and Covenants 76]. There is clearly illustrated glory upon glory—one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and a glory of the stars; and as one star differeth from another star in glory, even so do they of the telestial world differ in glory, and every man who reigns in celestial glory is a God to his dominions. …

“Paul says, ‘There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So is also the resurrection of the dead.’ [1 Corinthians 15:41–42.]”5

 

“God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. … I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord.”12

“The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers.”13

“There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.”14

“A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. …

“… Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.”

[The Folk Prophet]

How about some Brigham Young:

The Lord has blessed us with the ability to enjoy an eternal life with the Gods, and this is pronounced the greatest gift of God. The gift of eternal life, without a posterity, to become an angel, is one of the greatest gifts that can be bestowed; yet the Lord has bestowed on us the privilege of becoming fathers of lives. What is a father of lives as mentioned in the Scriptures? A man who has a posterity to an eternal continuance. That is the blessing Abraham received, and it perfectly satisfied his soul. He obtained the promise that he should be the father of lives (DBY, 97).

The Lord would like to see us take the course that leads unto the strait gate, that we might be crowned sons and daughters of God, for such are the only ones in the heavens who multiply and increase. … The rest take an inferior kingdom, where this privilege is denied them. … It is for us to choose whether we will be sons and daughters, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, or whether we accept an inferior glory (DNSW, 8 Aug. 1876, 1).

We are placed on this earth to prove whether we are worthy to go into the celestial world, the terrestrial, or the telestial or to hell, or to any other kingdom, or place, and we have enough of life given to us to do this (DBY, 87).

The principles of eternal life that are set before us are calculated to exalt us to power and preserve us from decay. If we choose to take the opposite course and to imbibe and practice the principles that tend to death, the fault is with ourselves. If we fail to obtain the salvation we are seeking for, we shall acknowledge that we have secured to ourselves every reward that is due to us by our acts, and that we have acted in accordance with the independent agency given us, and we will be judged out of our own mouths, whether we are justified or condemned (DNW, 17 Aug. 1859, 1).

The difference between the righteous and the sinner, eternal life or death, happiness or misery, is this, to those who are exalted there are no bounds or limits to their privileges, their blessings have a continuation, and to their kingdoms, thrones, and dominions, principalities, and powers there is no end, but they increase through all eternity (DBY, 63).

The difference between the righteous and the sinner, eternal life or death, happiness or misery, is this, to those who are exalted there are no bounds or limits to their privileges, their blessings have a continuation, and to their kingdoms, thrones, and dominions, principalities, and powers there is no end, but they increase through all eternity (DBY, 63).

Who can define the divinity of man? Only those who understand the true principles of eternity—the principles that pertain to life and salvation. Man, by being exalted, does not lose the power and ability naturally given to him; but, on the contrary, by taking the road that leads to life, he gains more power, more influence and ability during every step he progresses therein (DBY, 392).

The kingdom that this people are in pertains to the Celestial kingdom; it is a kingdom in which we can prepare to go into the presence of the Father and the Son. Then let us live to inherit that glory. God has promised you, Jesus has promised you, and the apostles and prophets of old and of our day have promised you that you shall be rewarded according to all you can desire in righteousness before the Lord, if you live for that reward (DNW, 31 Oct. 1860, 1).

Salvation is the full existence of man, of the angels, and the Gods; it is eternal life—the life which was, which is, and which is to come. And we, as human beings, are heirs to all this life, if we apply ourselves strictly to obey the requirements of the law of God, and continue in faithfulness (DBY, 387).

[The Folk Prophet]

A bit of John Taylor:

There is nothing of more value to me than the principles of eternal truth; than the principles of eternal lives; eternal salvation, and eternal exaltations in the kingdom of God. But then it is for us to comprehend them, for if we do not comprehend them, no matter how great the truths, they cannot benefit us.

The Savior thus becomes master of the situation—the debt is paid, the redemption made, the covenant fulfilled, justice satisfied, the will of God done, and all power is now given into the hands of the Son of God—the power of the resurrection, the power of the redemption, the power of salvation, the power to enact laws for the carrying out and accomplishment of this design. Hence life and immortality are brought to light, the Gospel is introduced, and He becomes the author of eternal life and exaltation. He is the Redeemer, the Resurrector, the Savior of man and the world.

In the economy of God and the plan proposed by the Almighty, it was provided that man was to be placed under a law apparently simple in itself, yet the test of that law was fraught with the gravest consequences. The observance of that law would secure eternal life, and the penalty for the violation of that law was death. … If the law had not been broken [through the Fall], man would have lived; but would man thus living have been capable of perpetuating his species, and of thus fulfilling the designs of God in preparing tabernacles for the spirits which had been created in the spirit world? And further, could they have had the need of a mediator, who was to act as a propitiation [or atoning sacrifice] for the violation of this law, which it would appear from the circumstances was destined to be broken; or could the eternal increase and perpetuity of man have been continued, and his high exaltation to the Godhead been accomplished, without the propitiatory atonement and sacrifice of the Son of God?

As a man through the powers of his body he could attain to the dignity and completeness of manhood, but could go no further; as a man he is born, as a man he lives, and as a man he dies; but through the essence and power of the Godhead, which is in him, which descended to him as the gift of God from his heavenly Father, he is capable of rising from the contracted limits of manhood to the dignity of a God, and thus through the atonement of Jesus Christ … he is capable of eternal exaltation, eternal lives and eternal progression. But this transition from his manhood to the Godhead can alone be made through a power which is superior to man—an infinite power, an eternal power, even the power of the Godhead: for as in Adam all die, so in Christ only can all be made alive [see 1 Corinthians 15:22].

The spirit of man, possessing a body, will, through the medium of the everlasting gospel, be exalted; and that man, inasmuch as he is faithful, will, by and by, be associated with the Gods in the eternal worlds; and while we plant and sow and reap, and pursue the common avocations of life, as other men do, our main object is eternal lives and exaltations; our main object is to prepare ourselves, our posterity and our progenitors for thrones, principalities and powers in the eternal worlds.

[The Folk Prophet]

Shall I go on? I mean I could literally go on all day and on and on. There is an overwhelming, almost impossible, level of explanation from our prophets and apostles concerning the eternities and its order.

Of course Rob has adopted the Satan inspired philosophy that if it can't be proven by scripture then it must be wrong. He claims he sustains and supports our leaders but puts a lie to the words in the same breath as he denies them and the truths they have plainly, repeatedly, overwhelmingly taught.

Edited March 29, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Shall I go on? I mean I could literally go on all day and on and on. There is an overwhelming, almost impossible, level of explanation from our prophets and apostles concerning the eternities and its order.

Of course Rob as adopted the Satan inspired philosophy that if it can't be proven by scripture then it must be wrong. He claims he sustains and supports our leaders but puts a lie to the words in the same breath as he denies them and the truths they have plainly, repeatedly, overwhelmingly taught.

There should be a site rule against getting into arguments with The Folk Prophet, because you will lose.  Badly.  

(I mean that as a compliment, TFP!)

Edited March 29, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Shall I go on? I mean I could literally go on all day and on and on. There is an overwhelming, almost impossible, level of explanation from our prophets and apostles concerning the eternities and its order.

Of course Rob has adopted the Satan inspired philosophy that if it can't be proven by scripture then it must be wrong. He claims he sustains and supports our leaders but puts a lie to the words in the same breath as he denies them and the truths they have plainly, repeatedly, overwhelmingly taught.

You are perhaps one of the most difficult individuals to have discussion with. Your constant jabs are so devilish I have a hard time seeing you in heaven unless ye repent. Nevertheless...

I read all of the quotes and it is readily apparent that everyone you quoted had various ideas on heaven and they all use the words kind of interchangably but not in a consistant sense. In one quote its going from exaltations to exaltations and yet in another its equated with salvation. In yet another it speaks separately of eternal life and exaltation as two different things. Yet, even in another it brings up eternal lives as equating to the seed continuing on. I am glad you quoted these because it most brilliantly proves my point that prophets and apostles have used these words interchangably but not always in harmony with how the scriptures defines them which are consistent. One of the big problems that exists when we start quoting prophets and apostles from latter day times is that you can find one end of the spectrum to the other and you end up pitting them against each other. For example- take eternal progression, you can find quotes from prophets from one end to the other and everything inbetween. Its just not consistent. What is generally consistent is the scriptures- its WHY we have them- to keep us from creating strange doctrines. Thats why I am always saying "give me a scripture". We could get lost in the myriads of ways prophets used words. We could find 20 different meanings for each word and never make heads or tails out of the doctrine.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

There should be a site rule against getting into arguments with The Folk Prophet, because you will lose.  Badly.  

(I mean that as a compliment, TFP!)

I have never lost an argument with TFP so Im not sure what you are saying...