We Are In The Telestial Kingdom Now, Proof By Contradiction

[Traveler]

 

@Rob Osborn

I am just wondering – by what empirical logic do you come to the conclusion that in the full light of truth and with the understanding of eternity and the bitterness of eternal hell (with full knowledge of all things) – that someone (anyone) would not repent – that some element within them, to some degree, does not wish that a different or “better” choice had been made?

Or that you can or should be forgiven – forever- for that sin that you just have not ever completely purged from your own soul?

Are not we all – to some degree or about something at some time; prone to not be 100% and completely honest and thus a lie (little white lie) about our own repentance and forsaking of all sins and any degree of them?  Do you ever wonder if it may be possible that you are in the category that is not worthy of forgiveness and glory? 

Personally, I have no problem with anyone believing in an eternal hell – My problem is with the logic they use (perhaps even the lie that would damn them) that someone is deserving of outer darkness – but it just is not them.  Kind of the thinking (despite all the light, truth and revelation they have) yet still there is a sin committed knowing full better that they should not – thinking they have repented only to find the sin to return?

I have come to the conclusion that if there is any hope for me to stand before G-d and beg for mercy – that there is hope for everyone.   So I wonder – if you believe there is hope for you to gloat before G-d of your worthiness – why do you not wonder if someone might come to their senses (like a prodigal son) – and with great tears beg and plead for mercy with the darkness of hell facing them – and there ever be a time that G-d would not forgive them?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

@Rob Osborn

I am just wondering – by what empirical logic do you come to the conclusion that in the full light of truth and with the understanding of eternity and the bitterness of eternal hell (with full knowledge of all things) – that someone (anyone) would not repent – that some element within them, to some degree, does not wish that a different or “better” choice had been made?

Or that you can or should be forgiven – forever- for that sin that you just have not ever completely purged from your own soul?

Are not we all – to some degree or about something at some time; prone to not be 100% and completely honest and thus a lie (little white lie) about our own repentance and forsaking of all sins and any degree of them?  Do you ever wonder if it may be possible that you are in the category that is not worthy of forgiveness and glory? 

Personally, I have no problem with anyone believing in an eternal hell – My problem is with the logic they use (perhaps even the lie that would damn them) that someone is deserving of outer darkness – but it just is not them.  Kind of the thinking (despite all the light, truth and revelation they have) yet still there is a sin committed knowing full better that they should not – thinking they have repented only to find the sin to return?

I have come to the conclusion that if there is any hope for me to stand before G-d and beg for mercy – that there is hope for everyone.   So I wonder – if you believe there is hope for you to gloat before G-d of your worthiness – why do you not wonder if someone might come to their senses (like a prodigal son) – and with great tears beg and plead for mercy with the darkness of hell facing them – and there ever be a time that G-d would not forgive them?

 

The Traveler

Ask Satan and the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that followed him. 

Personally I think very very few will be cast into outer darkness after resurrection and judgment. Almost all will be cleansed and saved into the kingdom of heaven.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

They are on our earth right (which is the telestial kingdom) now during their mortality. At death they go into hell. Then, at the end of the millennium they will be resurrected in the "last resurrection" or the "resurrection of the unjust" as they are not justified through Christ unto the cleansing from their sins and thus remain "filthy still". They will then be barred from entrance into heaven and suffer the second death. This is what John in Revelations was speaking of-

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
            15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev. 22:14-15)

Are you asserting that the Telestial Kingdom is a mortal and earthly Kingdom rather than a resurrected and heavenly kingdom?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Are you asserting that the Telestial Kingdom is a mortal and earthly Kingdom rather than a resurrected and heavenly kingdom?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The one spoken of in section 76? Yes, absolutely.

[zil]

27 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Are you asserting that the Telestial Kingdom is a mortal and earthly Kingdom rather than a resurrected and heavenly kingdom?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, that's what he's been saying all along.  So, here you and I are, residents of the Telestial kingdom described in D&C 76.  Are you ready to read a description of yourself (and, BTW, of the person who is teaching this false doctrine)?  Here it is, brace yourself:

Quote

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

...

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.  [I guess it's not all bad.]

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; [Apparently we don't understand the glory of this world because it doesn't seem to surpass my understanding, but I guess I'm wrong.]

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

...

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

...

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

Well, there you go.  Frankly, you're not the kind of person I want to associate with, but then, neither am I.

[Rob Osborn]

32 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, that's what he's been saying all along.  So, here you and I are, residents of the Telestial kingdom described in D&C 76.  Are you ready to read a description of yourself (and, BTW, of the person who is teaching this false doctrine)?  Here it is, brace yourself:

Well, there you go.  Frankly, you're not the kind of person I want to associate with, but then, neither am I.

If you can understand that there are several different groups associated with the telestial then it adds up. If you think its just one group and all of it applies to the one group then you wont get it. For example- Are you who are those of Paul, Apollos, and Cephas? Probably not. But, are you one of those who are ministered to by the Holy Ghost who is an heir of salvation? Probably.

[wenglund]

37 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, that's what he's been saying all along.  So, here you and I are, residents of the Telestial kingdom described in D&C 76.  Are you ready to read a description of yourself (and, BTW, of the person who is teaching this false doctrine)?  Here it is, brace yourself:

Well, there you go.  Frankly, you're not the kind of person I want to associate with, but then, neither am I.

Too funny!

To make matters even more interesting, the introduction to DC 76 refers to multiple kingdoms of heaven. So, evidently, earth is now heaven.--which is something only Rob could manage.

Thanks, Wade ENglund-

[wenglund]

52 minutes ago, zil said:

Yes, that's what he's been saying all along.  So, here you and I are, residents of the Telestial kingdom described in D&C 76.  Are you ready to read a description of yourself (and, BTW, of the person who is teaching this false doctrine)?  Here it is, brace yourself:

Well, there you go.  Frankly, you're not the kind of person I want to associate with, but then, neither am I.

Adding one more layer to the doctrine of Rob, The revelation of D&C 76 came in response to translating Jn 5:29 (see intro and vs 15), which speaks of the resurrection of the dead.

So, evidently, by Rob's accounting, all we on earth in the Telestial Kingdom, we have died and are are resurrected. Who knew?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 5, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If you can understand that there are several different groups associated with the telestial then it adds up. If you think its just one group and all of it applies to the one group then you wont get it. For example- Are you who are those of Paul, Apollos, and Cephas? Probably not. But, are you one of those who are ministered to by the Holy Ghost who is an heir of salvation? Probably.

Can you show me a scripture in D&C 76 that lists the "several different groups" associated with the Telestial Kingdom--particularly those not already listed by @zil?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Too funny!

To make matters even more interesting, the introduction to DC 76 refers to multiple kingdoms of heaven. So, evidently, earth is now heaven.--which is something only Rob could manage.

Thanks, Wade ENglund-

We are in the first heaven now. The second heaven begins when this earth passes away by fire and then we get a new heaven and the earth is renewed to terrestrial glory. The "third heaven" as referred to in the NT is the celestial glory or the earth after the terrestrial passes and we then get once again a new heaven and earth. Its actually referenced here-

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the dayof God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:12-13)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.(Rev. 21:1)

8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.

9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new. (Etheŕ 13:8-9)

22 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;

23 And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. (D&C 29:22-23)

[zil]

Just now, wenglund said:

Can you show me a scripture in D&C 76 that lists the "several different groups" associated with the Telestial Kingdom--particularly those not already listed by @zil?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Don't you know, Rob gets to pick and choose what scriptures mean, which ones apply or not, how to interpret them (including inferring things not implied by the text), but the rest of us don't.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

Don't you know, Rob gets to pick and choose what scriptures mean, which ones apply or not, how to interpret them (including inferring things not implied by the text), but the rest of us don't.

Not only that, but he gets to choose which words have multiple definitions and which do not.

[Rob Osborn]

28 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Adding one more layer to the doctrine of Rob, The revelation of D&C 76 came in response to translating Jn 5:29 (see intro and vs 15), which speaks of the resurrection of the dead.

So, evidently, by Rob's accounting, all we on earth in the Telestial Kingdom, we have died and are are resurrected. Who knew?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes it did come in response to understanding John 5:29 which reads-

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Their translation of it as given it section 76 reads-

16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

Now, it is my understanding that this was exactly and is exactly true- two resurrections- those who do good resurrected on the right hand unto eternal life and those who are evil resurrected on the left hand to be cast out. The Lord is trying to show in vision how this is exactly right and that unless you find yourself on the right hand to come forth in the resurrection of the just then you are on the left to be cast out into hell. But the Lord goes further in showing how these things arent to just be accomplished in this life and thus why he shows them the stages of progression that enables sinners to overcome all things to come forth in the resurrection of the just. This is precisely why its only the celestial as mentioned as coming forth in the resurrection of the just. Its only at that point that the Lord has cleansed and perfected the one singular kingdom to be presented to the Father as mentioned in verse 107. Do you understand? At this point Christ is presenting "all those he saves" as one kingdom, pure and spotless in the resurrection of the just. Its why, where in verse 102 he states there are only two groups- those caught up into the church of the Firstborn and those who arent. Thus, when you read verses such as these it makes perfect sense-

65 Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man according as his work shall be;

66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burnedwith unquenchable fire. (D&C 101:65-66)

At that point there is only wheat, all to receive eternal life and crowned with celestial glory, or tares which are burned with unquenchable fire which is the second death.

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Can you show me a scripture in D&C 76 that lists the "several different groups" associated with the Telestial Kingdom--particularly those not already listed by @zil?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sure. I will give one stark example-

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared

In verse 110 it speaks of the saved (us) which is contrasted with the unsaved as mention in verse 103

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Not only that, but he gets to choose which words have multiple definitions and which do not.

Kind of funny but I can prove through scripture where my definition is correct every time. Now...if others could do the same, only they cant because the scriptures dont support their many definitions.

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Sure. I will give one stark example-

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared

In verse 110 it speaks of the saved (us) which is contrasted with the unsaved as mention in verse 103

I noticed that you didn't quote vs 112 regarding those to be in the Telestial Kingdom as listed in verses 103 to 111 (actually, the list starts in verse 89), so let me do so for you:

 "112. And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." (bold mine)

I take it that you can grasp the countervailing impact of the bolded portion above on your private interpretation of the scriptures.

It should be noted that the first portion of D&C 76 (verses 25 to 39) is a vision in regards to Satan and the third of the hosts of heaven. In other words, it speaks to those who were denied physical bodies and thus will not be resurrected.  Whereas that later, or remaining portion of Section 76 is a vision about those who are RESURRECTED--i.e. "all the rest," as related to Jn 5:29 (see vs 16-17 and 39 and 50).

In other words, the second vision further details the resurrection of the just and the unjust mentioned in Jn 5:29, taking it from a binary categorization to multiple kingdoms of resurrection in heaven--as clearly intimated in the Introduction to Section 76.

Here is the how the old light and knowledge that is the binary view of resurrected heaven is expounded upon and further delineated through new light and knowledge:

1. Those who are or will be RESURRECTED to celestial glory in heaven are described in verses 51 to 70.
2. Those who will be RESURRECTED to terrestrial glory in heaven are described in verses 71 to 88.
3. And, those who will be RESURRECTED to a telestial glory in heaven (not to be confused with mortals on earthy) are described in verses 89 to 112.

This isn't rocket science. It is comprehension 101--particularly the basic skill of reading in context.

It takes some serious wresting of the scriptures to view Section 76 in accordance with your personal doctrine.  It is made even worse so through the further light and knowledge of Section 88.

Nevertheless, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 5, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

I noticed that you didn't quote vs 112 regarding those to be in the Telestial Kingdom as listed in verses 103 to 111 (actually, the list starts in verse 89), so let me do so for you:

 "112. And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end." (bold mine)

I take it that you can grasp the countervailing impact of the bolded portion above on your private interpretation of the scriptures.

Thanks for the questions. Verse 112 is interesting in that it uses the phrase you have bolded. When I look at this verse I do so in the context of what Joseph and Sidney are seeing. If its as I believe- the angel showing them our world in all its glory (which includes all our temples that dot the earth and an an almost innumerable host of saints serving God) coupled with Joseph believing what he is seeing is a future world, it can get jumbled up pretty quickly. Subtle words and phrases get mixed in that not necessarily carry a correct meaning. For example, in verse 111 it speaks of receiving a reward according to ones work "in the mansions which are prepared". The "mansions" are a place desigation that means, or is synonymous to, the kingdom of heaven where the Father and Son dwell. But then in verse 112 it says they wont dwell where God and Christ dwell. What? This is a basic contradiction. The mansions of the Father are in his very kingdom where he himself dwells. Thus, to counter this contradiction I believe the angel is showing us our earth in its glory and the saints who worship God who are servants. Then the angel says or alludes/shows that the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom (our earth right now)  cannot currently go where God and Christ now dwell. And where do they now dwell? On worlds without end. 

If we take it to mean like has been comminly understood it basically makes no sense whatsoever. Why? Well, you supposedly have a perfectly cleansed (purified) mass of servants who have been washed clean through the atonement and obedience to the laws and ordinances but are rejected from the Fathers presence for all eternity. But why? Are they filthy? Is that why? No, they are clean. Is it because they cant withstand Gods glory? Whats Gods glory? Light and truth. But they have entered into the light and truth otherwise they couldnt be cleansed. Do you get the point? It literally defies all logic and common sense. Besides that these saved souls who inherit a place in the mansions in the father are said to be as innumerable as the sands on the seashore. How do you suppose that the whoremongers, liars, scorcerers are that many? It makes it sound as if its the majority of the people on earth. Im wondering how the majority of the people on earth are these evil souls? Thats just one reason I reject the common understanding. 

4 hours ago, wenglund said:

It should be noted that the first portion of D&C 76 (verses 25 to 39) is a vision in regards to Satan and the third of the hosts of heaven. In other words, it speaks to those who were denied physical bodies and thus will not be resurrected.  Whereas that later, or remaining portion of Section 76 is a vision about those who are RESURRECTED--i.e. "all the rest," as related to Jn 5:29 (see vs 16-17 and 39 and 50).

In other words, the second vision further details the resurrection of the just and the unjust mentioned in Jn 5:29, taking it from a binary categorization to multiple kingdoms of resurrection in heaven--as clearly intimated in the Introduction to Section 76.

Here is the how the old light and knowledge that is the binary view of resurrected heaven is expounded upon and further delineated through new light and knowledge:

1. Those who are or will be RESURRECTED to celestial glory in heaven are described in verses 51 to 70.
2. Those who will be RESURRECTED to terrestrial glory in heaven are described in verses 71 to 88.
3. And, those who will be RESURRECTED to a telestial glory in heaven (not to be confused with mortals on earthy) are described in verses 89 to 112.

This isn't rocket science. It is comprehension 101--particularly the basic skill of reading in context.

It takes some serious wresting of the scriptures to view Section 76 in accordance with your personal doctrine.  It is made even worse so through the further light and knowledge of Section 88.

Nevertheless, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And who comes forth in the resurrection of the just? It only says the celestial. Thats it. The whole point of the vision is to show Joseph and Sidney that in the end Christ only saves one group- the church of the Firstborn. The angel is showing that there is no mystery to the strict dichotomy of John 5:29.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thanks for the questions. Verse 112 is interesting in that it uses the phrase you have bolded. When I look at this verse I do so in the context of what Joseph and Sidney are seeing. If its as I believe- the angel showing them our world in all its glory (which includes all our temples that dot the earth and an an almost innumerable host of saints serving God) coupled with Joseph believing what he is seeing is a future world, it can get jumbled up pretty quickly. Subtle words and phrases get mixed in that not necessarily carry a correct meaning. For example, in verse 111 it speaks of receiving a reward according to ones work "in the mansions which are prepared". The "mansions" are a place desigation that means, or is synonymous to, the kingdom of heaven where the Father and Son dwell. But then in verse 112 it says they wont dwell where God and Christ dwell. What? This is a basic contradiction. The mansions of the Father are in his very kingdom where he himself dwells. Thus, to counter this contradiction I believe the angel is showing us our earth in its glory and the saints who worship God who are servants. Then the angel says or alludes/shows that the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom (our earth right now)  cannot currently go where God and Christ now dwell. And where do they now dwell? On worlds without end. 

If we take it to mean like has been comminly understood it basically makes no sense whatsoever. Why? Well, you supposedly have a perfectly cleansed (purified) mass of servants who have been washed clean through the atonement and obedience to the laws and ordinances but are rejected from the Fathers presence for all eternity. But why? Are they filthy? Is that why? No, they are clean. Is it because they cant withstand Gods glory? Whats Gods glory? Light and truth. But they have entered into the light and truth otherwise they couldnt be cleansed. Do you get the point? It literally defies all logic and common sense. Besides that these saved souls who inherit a place in the mansions in the father are said to be as innumerable as the sands on the seashore. How do you suppose that the whoremongers, liars, scorcerers are that many? It makes it sound as if its the majority of the people on earth. Im wondering how the majority of the people on earth are these evil souls? Thats just one reason I reject the common understanding. 

And who comes forth in the resurrection of the just? It only says the celestial. Thats it. The whole point of the vision is to show Joseph and Sidney that in the end Christ only saves one group- the church of the Firstborn. The angel is showing that there is no mystery to the strict dichotomy of John 5:29.

Nope. The entirety of Section 76 is entirely consistent and makes complete sense to pretty much everyone but you. You seem to be the rare exception because, besides reading out of context and without comprehension and inventing things out of whole cloth, you keep confusingly forcing the round peg of new light and knowledge into the square hole of old light and knowledge. Doing so is what is known as arrested development.

You. of course, will not agree. And that is fine. I have said as much as I feel necessary to say, and probably more than I should have said. Nevertheless, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Nope. The entirety of Section 76 is entirely consistent and makes complete sense to pretty much everyone but you. You seem to be the rare exception because, besides reading out of context and without comprehension and inventing things out of whole cloth, you keep confusingly forcing the round peg of new light and knowledge into the square hole of old light and knowledge. Doing so is what is known as arrested development.

You. of course, will not agree. And that is fine. I have said as much as I feel necessary to say, and probably more than I should have said. Nevertheless, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yeah, we see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear. The liars, sorcerers and whoremongers all have their part in the second death. In order for me to be wrong you would have to acknowledge that the second death is telestial glory. 

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, we see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear. The liars, sorcerers and whoremongers all have their part in the second death. In order for me to be wrong you would have to acknowledge that the second death is telestial glory. 

I already acknowledged that when I wasted both our time pointing out the different meanings of "second death." You didn't accept that evinced explanation, or a number of other sound corrective points from me and various other board participants, because they all entail the round hole of new light and knowledge that doesn't fit your square peg of old light and knowledge.

You have every right to hold firm to your 1st century AD view of the afterlife. No one is forcing you to upgrade to the latter days  Again, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 6, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

33 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I already acknowledged that when I wasted both our time pointing out the different meanings of "second death." You didn't accept that evinced explanation, or a number of other sound corrective points from me and various other board participants, because they all entail the round peg of new light and knowledge that doesn't fit your square hole of old light and knowledge.

You have every right to hold firm to your 1st century AD view of the afterlife. No one is forcing you to upgrade to the latter days  Again, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hum...theres only one meaning of "second death". It comes after resurrection and judgment.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...theres only one meaning of "second death". It comes after resurrection and judgment.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 6, 2018 by wenglund

[Guest]

4 hours ago, wenglund said:

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You know, this is really the geometric equivalent of "my sheep know my voice."

[zil]

The most tragic part of this is that any of us who desire to have a discussion exploring the Church's teachings about eternity, staying within those bounds, can't!  We are being held hostage by the fact that any attempt to do that is guaranteed to be interrupted by Rob pushing his false doctrine, and the attempted discussion will immediately devolve into countering his erroneous interpretations - and to no avail.  He is utterly and completely obdurate, and the rest of us rightly refuse to believe his interpretation is correct, thus every single one of these conversations is pointless and useless and likely serves Satan more than God through its contention (except we cannot, IMO, let the false doctrine go uncontested lest it lead someone away from the Church).

Frankly, it sucks.

Edited April 6, 2018 by zil

[estradling75]

31 minutes ago, zil said:

The most tragic part of this is that any of us who desire to have a discussion exploring the Church's teachings about eternity, staying within those bounds, can't!  We are being held hostage by the fact that any attempt to do that is guaranteed to be interrupted by Rob pushing his false doctrine, and the attempted discussion will immediately devolve into countering his erroneous interpretations - and to no avail.  He is utterly and completely obdurate, and the rest of us rightly refuse to believe his interpretation is correct, thus every single one of these conversations is pointless and useless and likely serves Satan more than God though it's contention (but except we cannot, IMO, let the false doctrine go uncontested lest it lead someone away from the Church).

Frankly, it sucks.

Indeed and exactly.  There are plenty of interesting discussions that we could be having, but we can't because of his behavior