English Lessons for Jayki

[Guest]

@JayKi,

Let's begin a new thread for English lessons.

Here are a couple of tips to begin.

LESSON 1: Passive language/Active language

In Spanish the word "hay" is tremendously useful.  It is literally translated as "there is" or "there are."  But depending on the usage, English speakers don't use that phrasing in many instances.

Hay comida?  ==> Is there food?  ==> Do you have any food?

No hay. ==> There is none.  ==>  I don't have any.

The Spanish is a more passive language.  Therefore, the subject is not usually a person.  English is more active.  So, the statement usually includes the person.  While it is perfectly acceptable grammar to say "Is there any food?" the more common phrasing would be "Do you have any food?"  This includes a person in the question rather than the passive state of existence.

While this may seem like a minor issue, it is often the source of many misunderstandings.  This takes getting used to for the non-English speaker.  But the strength of this is that English can be a very forgiving language.  If you follow only two rules, you can usually be understood even if you mess up everything else.

1) The subject of the sentence must be clear -- usually it is a person responsible.
2) The verb must be clearly linked to the subject.  This is often done by word order.  But there are other ways to do it.

If you follow these two rules and your accent is at least passable, you can be understood by anyone who is at least trying to understand you.

As for learning English when people have accents and use a lot of slang... good luck.  That's not going to happen for a long time.

I learned Spanish from mostly Mexicans and Guatemalans.  But I had the opportunity to get to know an El Salvadoranian.  His English was just barely passable.  But I understood him.  My Spanish was pretty good, so he understood me.   But one day I was with him while he spoke with another person from El Salvador.  I couldn't understand a word he said. 

I asked him about it later.  He said that they were speaking El Salvadoranian.  I protested, figuring that El Salvador spoke Spanish.  He essentially told me that he was speaking slang that even a Mexican or Guatemalan wouldn't understand.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Guest

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

As for learning English when people have accents and use a lot of slang... good luck.  That's not going to happen for a long time.

This is reality no matter what language you learn.  I studied Russian for 4 years in college.  That got me enough to start learning once I got there - the Russians could understand me just fine, but I had to learn to understand them.  Day-to-day casual language never matches what we find in print or in language classes.

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

El Salvadoranian

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, zil said:

This is reality no matter what language you learn.  I studied Russian for 4 years in college.  That got me enough to start learning once I got there - the Russians could understand me just fine, but I had to learn to understand them.  Day-to-day casual language never matches what we find in print or in language classes.

Yes, that is why I gave the example of the El Salvadoranian.

1 minute ago, zil said:

That was what he called himself. Who was I to correct him?

[Lost Boy]

1 minute ago, zil said:

This is reality no matter what language you learn.  I studied Russian for 4 years in college.  That got me enough to start learning once I got there - the Russians could understand me just fine, but I had to learn to understand them.  Day-to-day casual language never matches what we find in print or in language classes.

 

At least with Russian they have an alphabet that is not to hard to learn and therefore you can start reading right away.  With Chinese or Japanese, the thousands of characters that are used make this significantly more difficult.

[mrmarklin]

 

Don't forget that hay in Spanish is pronounced as ay  or long I.

Saying hay (as in harvested alfalfa) will get you nowhere.

I took several years of German.  What is taught is what is known as Hochdeutsch or high German.  In many areas of Germany or Switzerland the colloquialisms are so rampant that's it can be very difficult to understand what people are saying.  Luckily they understand English.

Also true in Spanish speaking countries.  The worst is perhaps Argentina.

[anatess2]

I took English classes from Kindergarten through College.  I have 100% comprehension on newspapers and American newscasts on TV.  I can pretty much comprehend Tolkien et. al. with a little bit of help from a handy-dandy dictionary.  Then a stepped foot in San Francisco airport and I couldn't understand a lick of what they're saying... first, they talk very fast, second, they have an accent (yes, most people in the US speak English with a different accent than the newscasters).  So then I called the guy who was supposed to pick me up because I did not find him in the airport.  I was told to dial 0 for collect calls (this was before cellphones became the norm) and the AT&T operator (which I didn't know was automated) picked up and gave instructions except I didn't catch everything that she was saying so I kept on saying, "Can you please repeat the instructions".  My friend's sister got the collect call from the AT&T operator who said, "Will you accept a collect call from please repeat the instructions".

 

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 "Will you accept a collect call from please repeat the instructions".

This is one of those things that can be relished and dragged out for ...  yyeeaaarrrsss...

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This is one of those things that can be relished and dragged out for ...  yyeeaaarrrsss...

So, I finally found my friend, it was almost midnight and it's still a long haul to his house in San Jose and I was very hungry and the only thing open was Taco Bell.  I have never heard the word Taco before and so I looked up at the menu and the only thing I recognized was Pizza, as in Mexican Pizza, so I ordered that one and nope, it didn't look like any pizza I'm familiar with but I ate it anyway and I got diarrhea for days.  Then one day, I decided to prepare the meal and I dropped the pitcher of juice (because, for some reason pitchers in the US are ginormous) and my cousin said, "good going, anatess2" and I got confused because, of course I knew he didn't mean it as a compliment but then I haven't encountered that idiomatic expression in my semester's worth of idiomatic expressions study, so then it must be irony from another semester's worth of figures of speech ... but he was laughing like it was funny while I stood there just giving him a confused look.  Then he says something like, "pretty good, anatess2" and I couldn't quite figure out what that means - does pretty make it better than good but then he says it like he's saying it just to be polite and not really that good...

Needless to say, it took me years to learn Americanese and even now I still find myself asking my husband if I understood somebody correctly.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Needless to say, it took me years to learn Americanese and even now I still find myself asking my husband if I understood somebody correctly.

I'm sorry.  Could you repeat that, please?

[JayKi]

On 5/2/2018 at 8:14 PM, anatess2 said:

I took English classes from Kindergarten through College.  I have 100% comprehension on newspapers and American newscasts on TV.  I can pretty much comprehend Tolkien et. al. with a little bit of help from a handy-dandy dictionary.  Then a stepped foot in San Francisco airport and I couldn't understand a lick of what they're saying... first, they talk very fast, second, they have an accent (yes, most people in the US speak English with a different accent than the newscasters).  So then I called the guy who was supposed to pick me up because I did not find him in the airport.  I was told to dial 0 for collect calls (this was before cellphones became the norm) and the AT&T operator (which I didn't know was automated) picked up and gave instructions except I didn't catch everything that she was saying so I kept on saying, "Can you please repeat the instructions".  My friend's sister got the collect call from the AT&T operator who said, "Will you accept a collect call from please repeat the instructions".

 

Are you not a American? Is was same for me when I went to England they spoke too quick and I was still working out first words when they finish speaking. 

[anatess2]

On 5/5/2018 at 6:33 AM, JayKi said:

Are you not a American? Is was same for me when I went to England they spoke too quick and I was still working out first words when they finish speaking. 

Filipino here.  Mabuhay!

[JayKi]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Filipino here.  Mabuhay!

oh you seem so American. 

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, JayKi said:

oh you seem so American. 

I’m marrried to one. 🇺🇸

[JayKi]

On 5/1/2018 at 3:42 PM, Carborendum said:

@JayKi,

Let's begin a new thread for English lessons.

Here are a couple of tips to begin.

LESSON 1: Passive language/Active language

In Spanish the word "hay" is tremendously useful.  It is literally translated as "there is" or "there are."  But depending on the usage, English speakers don't use that phrasing in many instances.

Hay comida?  ==> Is there food?  ==> Do you have any food?

No hay. ==> There is none.  ==>  I don't have any.

The Spanish is a more passive language.  Therefore, the subject is not usually a person.  English is more active.  So, the statement usually includes the person.  While it is perfectly acceptable grammar to say "Is there any food?" the more common phrasing would be "Do you have any food?"  This includes a person in the question rather than the passive state of existence.

While this may seem like a minor issue, it is often the source of many misunderstandings.  This takes getting used to for the non-English speaker.  But the strength of this is that English can be a very forgiving language.  If you follow only two rules, you can usually be understood even if you mess up everything else.

1) The subject of the sentence must be clear -- usually it is a person responsible.
2) The verb must be clearly linked to the subject.  This is often done by word order.  But there are other ways to do it.

If you follow these two rules and your accent is at least passable, you can be understood by anyone who is at least trying to understand you.

As for learning English when people have accents and use a lot of slang... good luck.  That's not going to happen for a long time.

I learned Spanish from mostly Mexicans and Guatemalans.  But I had the opportunity to get to know an El Salvadoranian.  His English was just barely passable.  But I understood him.  My Spanish was pretty good, so he understood me.   But one day I was with him while he spoke with another person from El Salvador.  I couldn't understand a word he said. 

I asked him about it later.  He said that they were speaking El Salvadoranian.  I protested, figuring that El Salvador spoke Spanish.  He essentially told me that he was speaking slang that even a Mexican or Guatemalan wouldn't understand.

Will you explain to me difference between: 

Could you help me tomorrow? 

Can you help me tomorrow?

Will you help me tomorrow?

May you help me tomorrow?

 

I ask librarian can I borrow textbook and they said, I don't know if you can but you may. Are they correct my English? 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, JayKi said:

Will you explain to me difference between: 

Could you help me tomorrow? 

Can you help me tomorrow?

The difference here is no different than in Spanish podría vs. puede.

To Americans, "could" is considered slightly more polite than "can".  It's not that "can" is impolite.  It is that when you're in really polite circumstances (like asking your boss for a day off) then you'd probably want to use "could".

7 minutes ago, JayKi said:

Will you help me tomorrow?

This can change depending on context and the person you're talking to.

"Will..." is the English method of making a verb into future tense.  So, the technically correct translation of "will help" is: ayudará. 

But this is also a way of asking somewhat the same question with lightly different meanings.

1) Interrogation.  What this means is that they are almost demanding an answer.  This could be inferred if the tone is harsh.
2) Imperative request.  This means that they are still asking.  But it is with a tone of deeper need and want rather than demand.
3) Commitment.  It can be done in a manner of getting you to commit to something.  This is the method missionaries are taught to make commitments with investigators.  Spanish also uses the future sense to make such commitments.  But I've come across some Spanish speakers who don't take it that way.

7 minutes ago, JayKi said:

May you help me tomorrow?

This is improper English.  "May" is asking permission of someone.  "May I leave now?"  It wouldn't make sense to ask someone if they give themselves permission for something.  Therefore, "may you" doesn't make sense.

The use of "may" is falling out of favor.  Some older people still cling to it.  I try to teach it to my kids.  But the truth is that "can" is the most common method of asking the same question.

7 minutes ago, JayKi said:

I ask librarian can I borrow textbook and they said, I don't know if you can but you may. Are they correct my English? 

The librarian was being very strict with his/her Engilsh.  Technically she is correct.  But most Americans say "can" (as I said above).  However, if you want to impress people, the use of "may" is more proper.  But I would not (as a foreigner) try to correct an English speaker for using "can" when they should say "may".

Now I"M going to get all TECHNICAL on the librarian.  He might actually have been incorrect depending on your meaning.  In order to check it out of the building, the book must be equipped with a checkout chip or other mechanism.  Without it, you are unable to check it out.  In other words, you CAN'T (no puede) check it out.  Permission is a secondary concern when there is no physical way to check it out.  So, "may" might not have been correct.

[anatess2]

36 minutes ago, JayKi said:

Will you explain to me difference between: 

Could you help me tomorrow? 

Can you help me tomorrow?

Will you help me tomorrow?

May you help me tomorrow?

 

I ask librarian can I borrow textbook and they said, I don't know if you can but you may. Are they correct my English? 

1. Could you help me tomorrow? vs. Can you help me tomorrow?

Could is the past tense form of Can.  So you usually use Could when talking about the past - "My dog could jump the fence." (talking about my dog who passed away).  But, Could is also used as a "softer tone" of Can.  So, the normal thing is to say... "Can you help me tomorrow?"  But, if you want to add a softer tone, then you say "Could you help me tomorrow?" so it comes off more humble or polite.

2.  Will you help me tomorrow?

This has a different meaning.  Basically, just because you Can help me, doesn't mean you Will help me.  So, the question is asking for your willingness to help rather than your ability to help.

3.  May you help me tomorrow?

Is the same as saying, "Will you help me tomorrow, please".

So, May is also referencing Willingness rather than Ability but it adds a plea to it.

So yeah, when you're upset at somebody you can yell out, "Will you help me tomorrow?"  And when you get really mad, then you can yell, "Will you help me tomorrow, or not?"  But if you're being nice, you'd want to say, "Could you help me tomorrow?" if you want to check if the guy can do it (regardless of whether he's actually willing to do it or not), or if you want to beg then you'd say, "May you help me tomorrow, pretty please with icing on top."

Edited May 7, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

1. Could you help me tomorrow? vs. Can you help me tomorrow?

Could is the past tense form of Can.  So you usually use Could when talking about the past - "My dog could jump the fence." (talking about my dog who passed away).  But, Could is also used as a "softer tone" of Can.  So, the normal thing is to say... "Can you help me tomorrow?"  But, if you want to add a softer tone, then you say "Could you help me tomorrow?" so it comes off more humble or polite.

2.  Will you help me tomorrow?

This has a different meaning.  Basically, just because you Can help me, doesn't mean you Will help me.  So, the question is asking for your willingness to help rather than your ability to help.

3.  May you help me tomorrow?

Is the same as saying, "Can you help me tomorrow, please".

Anatess... Please read my response.  Your response is not exactly correct.

"could" is not past tense.  It is the conditional. It is sometimes the subjunctive.

"May you help me" is not correct grammar.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Guest

[JayKi]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Could is the past tense form of Can.  So you usually use Could when talking about the past - "My dog could jump the fence." (talking about my dog who passed away).  But, Could is also used as a "softer tone" of Can.  So, the normal thing is to say... "Can you help me tomorrow?"  But, if you want to add a softer tone, then you say "Could you help me tomorrow?" so it comes off more humble or polite.

 

Is possible to use could in present as conditional? If I say I could watch soccer tomorrow but I don't want to. Is that correct?

[JayKi]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This has a different meaning.  Basically, just because you Can help me, doesn't mean you Will help me.  So, the question is asking for your willingness to help rather than your ability to help.

 

So is like I say, Are you willing to help me tomorrow? Is that correct ?

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Anatess... Please read my response.  Your response is not exactly correct.

"could" is not past tense.  It is the conditional. It is sometimes the subjunctive.

"May you help me" is not correct grammar.

Could is DEFINITELY past tense of Can.  I could jump really high but now that I'm 50, I can't anymore.

(Edit:  I'm not 50...)

"May you help me" is awkward but it's not incorrect grammar.  "May I get some help" is more natural.

Edited May 7, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

Just now, JayKi said:

So is like I say, Are you willing to help me tomorrow? Is that correct ?

It is correct grammar.  And will still get you a response.  But it has a slightly different meaning.  It is asking directly about their willingness rather than their ability or their schedule or anything else.  Many people may still take it to mean the same thing as "can you help me..."  But others may respond, "I'm willing.  But I don't think I can."

[JayKi]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"May you help me" is not correct grammar.

Can may only be use if I succeeds  it ? please may I go to the shop? Is that correct ?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Could is DEFINITELY past tense of Can.  I could jump really high but now that I'm 50, I can't anymore.

(Edit:  I'm not 50...)

FIne. It's the past tense.  But it is never the past tense in the context that he was asking about.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, JayKi said:

Can may only be use if I succeeds  it ? please may I go to the shop? Is that correct ?

Please re-read what I wrote.  It is about getting permission.  You can certainly say "may I go to the shop" if you're asking permission.  I said that "may you..." doesn't make sense.  Why would you ask someone to give himself permission?

Edited May 7, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

FIne. It's the past tense.  But it is never the past tense in the context that he was asking about.

No.  That's why I stated the different usage.