Noah's Flood

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You speak of them being dishonest, yet you say there really is no evidence of something 100,000 years old.

There is no motivation to promote fairy tales at least not regarding how old the Earth is and how longs humans have been here.  I asked you what the motivation is for them and you did not mention any.

There is nothing wrong in believing in a creator and believing the Earth is 4 billion years old.  It doesn't change his greatness.  I does provide insight into what it means to be divine.  I still believe the cosmos was created by priesthood power.  I just don't believe it was poofed here in a few days or a few thousand years.

God is a God of order.  Scientific theory explains much better how God created the universe than what the bible does.  And if God created humans through an evolutionary process...  so what.  Would that make him seam any less powerful in your eyes?  If he didn't just poof Adam and Eve here??  That it does match exactly what scripture says?

Well, certainly the scriptures don't say anything about "poofing" things into existence. That's a common attack by evolutionists. Even for LDS we are taught that matter is eternal- has always existed and will continue to always exist. 

The scriptures actually teach that Adam is the direct lineal offspring of God himself. In LDS doctrine we teach that part of being a God is the ability to procreate in eternity and people world's. Why else would we have "seed" that continues?

Evolution of man from animals is and always will be one of Satan's greatest tools to mock God and destroy his works.

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't think your answer is helping me here.  When I say "poof"  I am talking about a very short period of time.

And removing a mountain is very different from making a living breathing person.  Men remove mountains all the time and they build mountains as well.  But they have yet to build a living organism like a human other than through sperm and egg fertilization.  

Poof is a word that is often used to demean or represent a magical term by the scientific realm -- particularly Atheist. They use the word "poof" as a bludgeon. Poof and the world was created by God. A short period of time for something to be created isn't "poof."  Poof is a term used for -- there was nothing, now there is something (which is usually accompanied by a puff of smoke).

We know matter was organized. If that matter was organized in a short time, matter was still organized by law and order. If matter was organized over a long period of time, it is still order.  God knows the elements, and the elements obey when he commands. He changed the element of water to the elements that define wine. This was done in an instant, by order, not some "poof" (magical short time period) and it was done. Poof is a derogatory word the arm of flesh uses against spiritual things.

We weren't talking about men moving mountains through strenuous or machine effort. We are speaking of God's ability, at his command, to make a valley a mountain or a mountain a valley. The Brother of Jared didn't remove a mountain through strenuous effort nor by machinery. It was through faith, "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed." Man has never moved a mountain, in this manner, "all the time."

Using magical terms, derogatory words, i.e. "poof" to represent something that happens through order in a shorter time period isn't helpful either.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You speak of them being dishonest, yet you say there really is no evidence of something 100,000 years old.

There is no motivation to promote fairy tales at least not regarding how old the Earth is and how longs humans have been here.  I asked you what the motivation is for them and you did not mention any.

There is nothing wrong in believing in a creator and believing the Earth is 4 billion years old.  It doesn't change his greatness.  I does provide insight into what it means to be divine.  I still believe the cosmos was created by priesthood power.  I just don't believe it was poofed here in a few days or a few thousand years.

God is a God of order.  Scientific theory explains much better how God created the universe than what the bible does.  And if God created humans through an evolutionary process...  so what.  Would that make him seam any less powerful in your eyes?  If he didn't just poof Adam and Eve here??  That it does match exactly what scripture says?

 

During the history of man – we can see technology develop and at times ebb or dwindle.  Mostly science and religion worked together to provide society with a knowledge base for accomplishment – both spiritually and physically.  Something very odd happened when Christianity mixed with Paganism and emerged as a major influence in Western society.  Some call it the middle ages, some call it the Dark Ages but LDS understand this time as “The Great Apostasy”.

A global effort to distort or destroy truths accumulated for centuries by man took hold and blossomed with the destruction of the library of Alexandra.  What followed would set back the enlightenment of mankind thousands of years.  Not just spiritually but even in the understanding of natural laws or the laws of physics.   During this time period of apostasy many of the great libraries of man were lost forever in time.  These included the libraries of Babylon, Zoroaster, China and even the records of the Nephits on the American contentment.   Both science and religion was replaced with unexplainable acts and methods of mystery and magic.  Man began to imagine that all divine and eternal “truth” was mysterious and unknowable – this also included the natural empirical laws of physics.  Efforts to explain any truth or wisdom to remove it from the realms of mystery and fantasy was pronounced by Traditional Christians as Satanic and pure evil.

G-d had not abandoned man and the age of ignorance began to melt away like the ice of winter with the coming of spring; with what has become known as the renaissance and the beginning of what would become known as an age of enlightenment and eventually the “Modern Age” of man.  But Traditional Christianity would not give up on notion of mysterious truth and would pronounce any scientific discovery as evil and a lie.

Science introduced notions of gravity, electromagnetic radiation and the small and large nuclear forces.  These ideas of empirical and precisely predictable forces gave man the power of understanding of our world and the universe and Traditional Christianity hated the new understanding and fought it every step of the way.  Perhaps the most profound blunder was the conviction of Galileo by Traditional Christians for publishing a book of how to predict ocean tides with science rather than with mysteries of religion.  

For 600 years the religious community has lost battle after battle as science has introduced so much usable knowledge that indeed man is now enjoying a golden age of knowledge even to the extent of being able to step off our tiny little planet into the vast regions of space.  And what has traditional religion produced?  To be honest – it appears to me that traditional religion produced little beyond hatred in the form of slavery, wars and disdain of our fellow man.  If it were not for LDS – I would not consider myself a Christian because as an institution; tradition Christianity has produced little or nothing of value.  I am not saying there have not been good individuals – just that as an institution there is nothing notable.  I would also explain that even the likes of the Natizies of Germany and the Communists of Stalin and Mao there were good individuals doing very impressive things.

Sadly, there still exist today individuals that claim the mysteries of traditional religious thinking over the empirical understanding of our universe through science.  They resist, as many religionists before them, any and all scientific truth.  Their claim is that the study of empirical evidence is evil and Satanic – nothing more than lies.  They will stand in the bright empirical light of noon day and declare it night.  It is hard for me to understand and had I not conversed personally with such enemies of truth – I would not believe it - that such possible in our day and age of restoration of truth.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

41 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Poof is a word that is often used to demean or represent a magical term by the scientific realm -- particularly Atheist. They use the word "poof" as a bludgeon. Poof and the world was created by God. A short period of time for something to be created isn't "poof."  Poof is a term used for -- there was nothing, now there is something (which is usually accompanied by a puff of smoke).

We know matter was organized. If that matter was organized in a short time, matter was still organized by law and order. If matter was organized over a long period of time, it is still order.  God knows the elements, and the elements obey when he commands. He changed the element of water to the elements that define wine. This was done in an instant, by order, not some "poof" (magical short time period) and it was done. Poof is a derogatory word the arm of flesh uses against spiritual things.

We weren't talking about men moving mountains through strenuous or machine effort. We are speaking of God's ability, at his command, to make a valley a mountain or a mountain a valley. The Brother of Jared didn't remove a mountain through strenuous effort nor by machinery. It was through faith, "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed." Man has never moved a mountain, in this manner, "all the time."

Using magical terms, derogatory words, i.e. "poof" to represent something that happens through order in a shorter time period isn't helpful either.

 

I like your addition here.  In mathematics we have the notion of proof.  This mathematical notion is very well defined.  It would seem that beyond the boundaries of mathematics proof has little to add for well-defined understanding.  There are some elements of proof in logic but these elements are not as well define as they are in mathematics.  This little sense of ambiguity has caused much consternation in dealing with differences of opinion and what constitutes an acceptable proof.  

As a side note – most atheists and agnostics that I meet in my work are not averse to G-d or the notion that a G-d being created the universe – just the traditional Christian G-d as pronounced in the Trinity.  A notion of G-d that they were raised with from their youth.   They were told that if they did not believe is such a G-d that they would go to Hell.  The logic has been so profoundly absurd – they have rejected all notions of G-d and pronounced themselves atheists and agnostics and are much happier for it.  

 

The Traveler

Edited June 14, 2018 by Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

During the history of man – we can see technology develop and at times ebb or dwindle.  Mostly science and religion worked together to provide society with a knowledge base for accomplishment – both spiritually and physically.  Something very odd happened when Christianity mixed with Paganism and emerged as a major influence in Western society.  Some call it the middle ages, some call it the Dark Ages but LDS understand this time as “The Great Apostasy”.

A global effort to distort or destroy truths accumulated for centuries by man took hold and blossomed with the destruction of the library of Alexandra.  What followed would set back the enlightenment of mankind thousands of years.  Not just spiritually but even in the understanding of natural laws or the laws of physics.   During this time period of apostasy many of the great libraries of man were lost forever in time.  These included the libraries of Babylon, Zoroaster, China and even the records of the Nephits on the American contentment.   Both science and religion was replaced with unexplainable acts and methods of mystery and magic.  Man began to imagine that all divine and eternal “truth” was mysterious and unknowable – this also included the natural empirical laws of physics.  Efforts to explain any truth or wisdom to remove it from the realms of mystery and fantasy was pronounced by Traditional Christians as Satanic and pure evil.

G-d had not abandoned man and the age of ignorance began to melt away like the ice of winter with the coming of spring; with what has become known as the renaissance and the beginning of what would become known as an age of enlightenment and eventually the “Modern Age” of man.  But Traditional Christianity would not give up on notion of mysterious truth and would pronounce any scientific discovery as evil and a lie.

Science introduced notions of gravity, electromagnetic radiation and the small and large nuclear forces.  These ideas of empirical and precisely predictable forces gave man the power of understanding of our world and the universe and Traditional Christianity hated the new understanding and fought it every step of the way.  Perhaps the most profound blunder was the conviction of Galileo by Traditional Christians for publishing a book of how to predict ocean tides with science rather than with mysteries of religion.  

For 600 years the religious community has lost battle after battle as science has introduced so much usable knowledge that indeed man is now enjoying a golden age of knowledge even to the extent of being able to step off our tiny little planet into the vast regions of space.  And what has traditional religion produced?  To be honest – it appears to me that traditional religion produced little beyond hatred in the form of slavery, wars and disdain of our fellow man.  If it were not for LDS – I would not consider myself a Christian because as an institution; tradition Christianity has produced little or nothing of value.  I am not saying there have not been good individuals – just that as an institution there is nothing notable.  I would also explain that even the likes of the Natizies of Germany and the Communists of Stalin and Mao there were good individuals doing very impressive things.

Sadly, there still exist today individuals that claim the mysteries of traditional religious thinking over the empirical understanding of our universe through science.  They resist, as many religionists before them, any and all scientific truth.  Their claim is that the study of empirical evidence is evil and Satanic – nothing more than lies.  They will stand in the bright empirical light of noon day and declare it night.  It is hard for me to understand and had I not conversed personally with such enemies of truth – I would not believe it - that such possible in our day and age of restoration of truth.

 

The Traveler

Are you speak8ng of flat-earthers? 

Im not sure who you refer to but there is actually more fundamental truth in scientific principle established from scripture than you realize. And no, folks like me dont stand in the bright noonday and call it night. Empirical is an interesting thing. Very few things in science are truly empirical. When it comes to the origins of the universe and man there is hardly anything empirical from a scientific standpoint. LDS doctrine teaches us some fundamental truths about our origins, how the universe came to be formed, and varioys geologic events surrounding our earth during its temporal existence. As a Christian, viewing another Christian, it is I who must proclaim how impossible it is to deny such truths in favor of the secular philosophies of man. Its like standing in the middle of the street at noonday and calling it night.

[askandanswer]

On 6/14/2018 at 12:07 AM, Lost Boy said:

And maybe it isn't important to my salvation to know the answer.

And maybe it is. As part of the final judgement, there might be a 20 page test on our knowledge of Old Testament history. (But probably not  ) 

[BJ64]

4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

And if God created humans through an evolutionary process...  so what.  Would that make him seam any less powerful in your eyes?  If he didn't just poof Adam and Eve here??  That it does match exactly what scripture says?

I believe our Heavenly Parents created Adam and Eve in the same manner as we create our children. 

Early church leaders believed this also. 

[BJ64]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The scriptures actually teach that Adam is the direct lineal offspring of God himself. In LDS doctrine we teach that part of being a God is the ability to procreate in eternity and people world's. Why else would we have "seed" that continues?

I think this is the first thing you’ve said that I agree with. I think it was clear to early church leaders that Adam and Eve were the literal physical offspring of our Heavenly Parents. However this teaching seems to be lost since now days the emphasis is that we are the “spirit children” of God and that God is the creator of our spirits. Joseph Smith and scripture say that our spirits were in the beginning with God. Joseph also said “But, if I am right I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops, that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself: intelligence exists upon a self existent principle, it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it.”

[BJ64]

3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

The Brother of Jared didn't remove a mountain through strenuous effort nor by machinery. It was through faith, "For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed." Man has never moved a mountain, in this manner, "all the time."

However there are no modern accounts of moving mountains with faith. Even when it would have been very helpful such as the pioneers crossing into the Salt Lake valley and on the hole in the rock expedition. 

[Anddenex]

20 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

However there are no modern accounts of moving mountains with faith. Even when it would have been very helpful such as the pioneers crossing into the Salt Lake valley and on the hole in the rock expedition. 

This is true; although, we don't have any modern account of water being turned into wine either. We don't have any modern, or past account after Moses, of water gushing from a rock which would have been helpful to pioneers and others who needed water also.

We don't have any modern account of pioneers parting a river to walk on dry ground as we find with Elisha here, "And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over."  And as we are informed with the river Jordan, "And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan." I assume, this miracle would have been very helpful to those three young men who lost their lives due to the cold water as they carried people across the river.

Although we don't have any modern accounts of these miracles which would have assisted the pioneers, it doesn't negate that these miracles occurred in the past. So, exactly what are you trying to say?

Edited June 14, 2018 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Are you speak8ng of flat-earthers? 

Im not sure who you refer to but there is actually more fundamental truth in scientific principle established from scripture than you realize. And no, folks like me dont stand in the bright noonday and call it night. Empirical is an interesting thing. Very few things in science are truly empirical. When it comes to the origins of the universe and man there is hardly anything empirical from a scientific standpoint. LDS doctrine teaches us some fundamental truths about our origins, how the universe came to be formed, and varioys geologic events surrounding our earth during its temporal existence. As a Christian, viewing another Christian, it is I who must proclaim how impossible it is to deny such truths in favor of the secular philosophies of man. Its like standing in the middle of the street at noonday and calling it night.

 

Flat-earther?  Are you kidding me – do you have any idea of the heresy Galileo was accused of?   I thought I would list it but rather I will let you list what you “think”.   If you think the problem with Galileo was mainly addressing a flat earth thing – you are an ---- Woops I almost committed what may be considered a rules violation of this forum.

Very few “things” in science are truly empirical? Are you kidding???  Have you ever taken a real science class at school?  Like physics, biology or zoology?  Have you ever seen a question on a test like – If a train is traveling at 60 mph for 15 minutes – how many miles did it travel?  Did you ever do “story problems”?  How about gravity – do you know how to calculate the protectory of a biolistic missile?  Do you have any idea how many empirical calculations it took to launch the Voyager probe to explorer planets and then into the Kuiper Belt?  Do you think studying the scriptures (void of science) will provide the light and truth necessary to accomplish such a thing?

Please name a single physic problem or principle that does not rely on empirical observations.  Name any quantum physic or sub-atomic law or principle that does not rely on empirical observations.  Even theoretical physics (currently mostly in astrophysics) that is not based on empirical observations.

Please name for me a scientific principle or law – even one; just one that is void of any empirical observation.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

I believe our Heavenly Parents created Adam and Eve in the same manner as we create our children. 

Early church leaders believed this also. 

 

Actually, I agree - that Adam was created in the same manner and using the same principles that you and I were created.

But what about other life - Is Eve the mother of all living?  What process did G-d utilize to create the vast variety of life?  It is it possible that G-d genetically engineered new or differing species from already existing species?  For me - to be honest - I do not possess knowledge of such things.  For me; scripture is too vague and sometimes I wonder if the creation spoken of in Genesis (and other places) is more about the creation and application of the Plan of Salvation than it is the origins of our universe.

It is my opinion that too many conclusions are being made with insufficient information and that the science of our day has so surpassed that understanding generally among man when any specific scripture was given that I have come to believe that our scriptures are not nor ever given to answer the questions that science is now asking.

 

The Traveler

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Traveler

[Lost Boy]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

I believe our Heavenly Parents created Adam and Eve in the same manner as we create our children. 

Early church leaders believed this also. 

I don't know how they came about so I can't really argue one way or the other.  

I tend to believe that Adam and Eve came more from an evolutionary process and that They were the first two that God covenanted with making them his first children.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

However there are no modern accounts of moving mountains with faith. Even when it would have been very helpful such as the pioneers crossing into the Salt Lake valley and on the hole in the rock expedition. 

Why do you suppose that is?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Flat-earther?  Are you kidding me – do you have any idea of the heresy Galileo was accused of?   I thought I would list it but rather I will let you list what you “think”.   If you think the problem with Galileo was mainly addressing a flat earth thing – you are an ---- Woops I almost committed what may be considered a rules violation of this forum.

Very few “things” in science are truly empirical? Are you kidding???  Have you ever taken a real science class at school?  Like physics, biology or zoology?  Have you ever seen a question on a test like – If a train is traveling at 60 mph for 15 minutes – how many miles did it travel?  Did you ever do “story problems”?  How about gravity – do you know how to calculate the protectory of a biolistic missile?  Do you have any idea how many empirical calculations it took to launch the Voyager probe to explorer planets and then into the Kuiper Belt?  Do you think studying the scriptures (void of science) will provide the light and truth necessary to accomplish such a thing?

Please name a single physic problem or principle that does not rely on empirical observations.  Name any quantum physic or sub-atomic law or principle that does not rely on empirical observations.  Even theoretical physics (currently mostly in astrophysics) that is not based on empirical observations.

Please name for me a scientific principle or law – even one; just one that is void of any empirical observation.

 

The Traveler

Hum...we are discussing "empirical" in the topic of man's origins, flood, etc. That's more precisely what I was referring to.

[Traveler]

41 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...we are discussing "empirical" in the topic of man's origins, flood, etc. That's more precisely what I was referring to.

This is not at all what you said – but let’s move on.  Recently I visited the Vasa museum in Sweden.   This involves the recovery of a ship sunk 300 years ago that until recently was under water.  I learned that carbon dating pinpointed the exact time the ship was sunk that corresponds exactly with records kept – Thus we have conclusive empirical evidence that being under water will not change the carbon dating process.  I think you have claimed that being under water changes carbon dating.   What empirical evidence do you have that carbon dating is not accurate?

I am also very interested in any empirical evidence concerning the flood or the origins of man that you think science is ignoring. 

 

The Traveler

[BJ64]

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

This is true; although, we don't have any modern account of water being turned into wine either. We don't have any modern, or past account after Moses, of water gushing from a rock which would have been helpful to pioneers and others who needed water also.

We don't have any modern account of pioneers parting a river to walk on dry ground as we find with Elisha here, "And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over."  And as we are informed with the river Jordan, "And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan." I assume, this miracle would have been very helpful to those three young men who lost their lives due to the cold water as they carried people across the river.

Although we don't have any modern accounts of these miracles which would have assisted the pioneers, it doesn't negate that these miracles occurred in the past. So, exactly what are you trying to say?

Probably there have been only two or three people ever with the faith to move a mountain. 

[BJ64]

2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't know how they came about so I can't really argue one way or the other.  

I tend to believe that Adam and Eve came more from an evolutionary process and that They were the first two that God covenanted with making them his first children.

Why would Adam and Eve evolve when a perfected resurected and immortal being would have the capability of producing offspring? When they were “created” they were immortal like their parents. It wasn’t until the fall that they became mortal and subject to physical death. 

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Why do you suppose that is?

I would suppose that either no one has had sufficient faith, or the need hasn’t been sufficiently great for such a miracle. 

[Grunt]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

Why would Adam and Eve evolve when a perfected resurected and immortal being would have the capability of producing offspring? When they were “created” they were immortal like their parents. It wasn’t until the fall that they became mortal and subject to physical death. 

The first verses of Genesis 6 always raised questions with me.  However, I've never had formal teaching on them so there may be an easy explanation.  

[Lost Boy]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

Why would Adam and Eve evolve when a perfected resurected and immortal being would have the capability of producing offspring? When they were “created” they were immortal like their parents. It wasn’t until the fall that they became mortal and subject to physical death. 

I don't know.  It is just how I feel.  There isn't a whole lot of detail on Adam and Eve's creation.

[Grunt]

8 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't know.  It is just how I feel.  There isn't a whole lot of detail on Adam and Eve's creation.

I find all of Genesis odd.  In Chapter 1 He creates man and woman and sends them out to multiply.  In Chapter 2 He discusses Adam and Eve and puts them in Eden.  Is Chapter one just a Reader's Digest version of Genesis?  Are the men in Chapter one different than Adam and Eve?  In chapter 6 it's discussed how the sons of God marry the daughters of man.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Grunt said:

I find all of Genesis odd.  In Chapter 1 He creates man and woman and sends them out to multiply.  In Chapter 2 He discusses Adam and Eve and puts them in Eden.  Is Chapter one just a Reader's Digest version of Genesis?  Are the men in Chapter one different than Adam and Eve?  In chapter 6 it's discussed how the sons of God marry the daughters of man.

I have no problem accepting that Genesis is largely allegorical. It doesn't effect my faith in Christ. 

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I have no problem accepting that Genesis is largely allegorical. It doesn't effect my faith in Christ. 

Sure, but the Church teaches that it's literal.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Grunt said:

Sure, but the Church teaches that it's literal.

Didn't know that.  Eh, I guess I disagree with the church on this one.